Reality Check for NetJets Pilots

[Live4flyng]

Thanks FL717

I don't remember who it was that knew him, but he alledgedly according to this person who outed him is a Contenental B-777 Captain who was ex-AirForce and a Thunderbird pilot who scabbed to get on at Continental in 1987 or 1988 when he separated from the AirForce. He's a "bad apple" as someone else put it... so believe me... take what he says with a grain of salt.

There you have it folks, the one with the biggest mouth turns out to be a SCAB. I doubt we will hear from the SCAB again.

 

[netjetwife]

Bravo! GV

Excellent post in defense of our military pilots! Your comments re: Army transition to fixed-wing, mirrors our conversations w/the Army couples we came across. They felt very lucky to be there. Getting into fighters in the AF, though not as difficult as the Army move, was not easy and timing definitely played a large role.

 

[sikntired]

My faith in humanity has been restored! Thank you, gentlemen, for being honorable and kind. (geez, it was getting kinda nasty for awhile!)

sikntired

 

[sikntired]

My faith in humanity has been restored! Thank you, gentlemen, for being honorable and kind. (geez, it was getting kinda nasty for awhile!)
Blood pressure...goin' down!

sikntired

 

[netjetwife]

Much nicer in here, now.

SnT, In writing an earlier post, I found myself being censored (showed up on the preview so I changed it) for the stronger version of "darn". I was saying someone was ...dam lucky, but I had spelled it properly. The whole thing strikes me as rather bizarre, considering the very PERSONAL insults that you and I have endured at the hands of the SCABBY TOAD...LOL There HAS been a lot of support shown lately, and the "Ignore List" button is an excellent feature. Picture this...Les Paul standing in an empty room calling out, "Hey, where'd everybody go?"...."Who turned out the lights?"...LOL

While you're here.....I want to ask if your "hubby" has ever received a tip from an owner? Did you read all of that particular debate?
LaVonn-NJW

 

[lawfly]

Reality Check For NetJets Pilots

Here is some business savvy realism for your little fantasy world:

IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE WHAT THE CLIENT IS WORTH......! Client net worth doesn't generate profits. What matters is how much revenue is generated on a given flight. (Quoted from page 1 of this thread)

My Comments:

I am not an MBA, CPA, or transactional attorney. Nor am I affiliated in any way with a fractional. I was wondering, though, if revenue per flight is quite the measurement with fractionals as it is with airlines or with a "pay as you fly" 135 operation, etc. The number of pax/cargo on board multiplied by the fares paid by each would work for a "pay as you fly" operation. But a fractional's revenue stream includes initiation fees, monthly/annual fees (all very substantial) and, lastly, per flight hour revenues. To take an extreme example, take an owner paying $1M of revenue into the fractional in Year X who flies one time in Year X. Is the revenue generated by that one flight measured solely by the flight time-based revenue? I would think that how much revenue is generated by flight time-based revenues is only one revenue consideration in assessing a fractional's actual or projected profitability. Actually, it's probably a pretty complicated accounting scenario. So, while the passenger's ("owner's") net worth is not a measure of the fractional's profitability, that owner's usage-based revenue is not the only revenue stream attributable to him by the fractional (the aforementioned monthly/annual fees, etc.) Would be interesting to hear from a qualified individual on the interplay of these factors in assessing company revenues and profitability, and, if at all, crew compensation.

As for this thread, wow, it is intensely personal for some. It went astray with details of particular pilots' backgrounds, family environments, career choices, etc. It is an otherwise interesting subject: how the fractionals are faring, how revenues and profitability are evaluated for this particular business model, and the current NetJets situation in particular.

 

[netjetwife]

Pilots must be paid like the professionals they are!

Crew compensation HAS to be looked at as a part of the entire picture of the company's financial standing. Pilots' wages are taken from management fees and are definitely a business cost, just as fuel, mx, and catering are. If NetJets has to make some adjustments to their business plan in order to compensate the pilots properly, then so be it.

Sorry for all the distractions on the thread. The frustration level is very high these days for the NJ pilots and their wives. There is a closed-minded element among the posters, that sees the NJ pilots as "whiners" that should shut up or leave. NetJet pilots/families are in a fight for a fair contract. That goal, if realized, could benefit the other fractionals as well. Surprisingly, that concept isn't as well-accepted as it should be. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Netjetwife

 

[lawfly]

Reality Check For NetJets Pilots

My purpose in posting was largely to point out the differences in the business model and revenue stream of a major airline and that of of a fractional, differences which previous posts ignored when they spoke of the number of seats/passengers, net worth of passengers,etc. Can't apply pay as you fly formula to a fractional for determination of revenues, profits.

Is NetJets profitable? I had heard that none of the big fractionals were actually profitable yet.

The size of the paycheck alone does not make a "professional". Some self-employed professionals with education, degrees, and licenses up the whazoo can have a difficult, unpredictable time financially. Many with institutional employers face unreasonable demands in workload. But I digress. Besides, if someone wanted that, he/she wouldn't have become a professional pilot, right?

In an earlier post, you said that FOs are "forced" to get typed. But NetJets does pay for the type, right? Wouldn't use the word "forced". A company-provided type for FOs is a good thing. I hear the schedule is 8 on, 7 or 8 off. I get the basic point: that the pay scales are low overall (even for mid level to senior captains?) , and that certain job conditions, like some of the hotels mentioned earlier, could stand improvement. I say, Good Luck. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Oh, are there any married female pilots at NetJets? Maybe terminology shoud be NetJets pilots and their "spouses". Over and out.

Best to all.

 

[PseudoName]

Wow....a week has gone by since my original post......and no one has made a justified post which shows that the proposed NJA contract is a piece of crap and is not in tune with the rest of the business aviation community!!

I guess for all the NJA pilots and wives who have read the original post realize that deep down, the proposed TA is reasonable. For the rest of you, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilots that work for companies who fly the same clientele as you do.

Don't believe me?? I recently offered a full time job to a NJA 5 yr Captain (flying same equipment) with a substantial increase in pay over his current salary. He turned it down.......said that we didn't offer him the quality of life that NetJets does (ie days off, vacation and retirement).

 

[FL450]

Thanks, Griz. I was going to post something similar, but I was too busy laughing.

 

[niteflyr]

Pseudo,


I think the problem is your first post was flawed in the beginning because of your ignorance of how the fractional business even works. We do not collect tickets from each pax as they board, the cost is the same regardless of how many we are carrying. They are paying to operate the airplane, so your 150 pax analogy is flawed to begin with. We are being paid to operate the plane with a level of service and convenience unmatched by any charter operator and dare I say many corporate operators. There are basically two ways fracs make money, aircraft sales (which used to be the predominant income in the early 'booming' years) and operations (management fees etc that are becoming more a factor of where the profits need to show up.) We are to the point now where people know how nice our service is to be a part of and should be willing to pay the higher dollar price attached to it.

No argument, the schedule is the best I have had, but the work I do for those seven days far exceeds any other job I have had, and the frequency of the 14 hour day with 10 hours off repeatedly is a killer.

All we are trying to do is make this into the job we all envisioned at one time, which it can be. The money is there, it just needs to be allocated differently. FA's making more than F.O.'s?? Something is flawed there, and we need to fix it.

 

[netjetwife]

The debate continues----

My purpose in posting was largely to point out the differences in the business model and revenue stream of a major airline and that of of a fractional, differences which previous posts ignored when they spoke of the number of seats/passengers, net worth of passengers,etc. Can't apply pay as you fly formula to a fractional for determination of revenues, profits.

Is NetJets profitable? I had heard that none of the big fractionals were actually profitable yet.

In an earlier post, you said that FOs are "forced" to get typed. But NetJets does pay for the type, right? Wouldn't use the word "forced". A company-provided type for FOs is a good thing. I hear the schedule is 8 on, 7 or 8 off. I get the basic point: that the pay scales are low overall (even for mid level to senior captains?) , and that certain job conditions, like some of the hotels mentioned earlier, could stand improvement. I say, Good Luck. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Oh, are there any married female pilots at NetJets? Maybe terminology shoud be NetJets pilots and their "spouses". Over and out.

Best to all.

I'll take the easy one first. I use the word "wives" over spouses because our support group does not have any husbands of female pilots. They may be out there, but I don't feel as though I can be a spokesperson for them (don't know them) as I can for the wives in our group. BTW, sikntired is also a founding member of the wives suppot group.

I will stand by my use of the word "forced", as the FOs are not given a CHOICE when it comes to taking the Captain check ride, paid for by the company. My husband is a perfectionist--a trait shared by many pilots--and feels pressure to perform his best on every check-ride. What does he get for the extra work? ZILCH The company gets great advertising--2 Captains on every plane--at his expense. If the FO pay were not so pathetic (28K/yr) then the extra work wouldn't be the additional insult that it is. I find the company's promotion of my husband's skill deceptive and hypocritical, in light of their unwillingness to pay industry standard wages. In short, I believe that NJA should put "their money where their mouth is."

Job conditions are much more serious than hotel accomodations. 14 hr days (common) and missed meals (typical) are very taxing conditions to perform under. Many a night I've talked to my husband as he eats a cold, hours-old meal ( he even knows what to order that will be edible hours later), talks of his long, hectic day, and tells me how he has to be back at the plane in 9 hrs. Jeff works 17 days a month. Anything under 10 hrs is considered getting off early. Getting a hot meal, on time, is seen as having a good day.

Is NetJets profitable? Yes. Not as much as they could be because they have been pouring the money back into the business, expanding rapidly, carrying NJEurope, and paying cash for things like a hanger in NY. We (pilots and their spouses..) want the company to invest in their pilot force by paying NBAA level salaries. After wading through the billions coming in from other companies, this is what was said at the 2003 Berkshire Hathaway Annual Meeting about NetJets--which is now a world-wide operation.
www.tilsonfunds.com/brkmtg03notes.html

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"We're slightly profitable in the US and losing money in Europe. 1/2 of all [business jet] miles flown in Europe are by Americans, and this will rise. We've made a huge investment Europe and there will be no competitors behind us. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are three major competitors. We have always been the biggest and our market share is rising. At 75% recently. I believe all of our competitors are losing money on an operating basis -- not even including asset write-downs. I think some of them will exit the industry -- look at Raytheon's recent prospectus. There will be a shake out, and we will not be one of the ones shook. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This will eventually be a huge business for us -- 10 times what it is currently."[/font]


NetJets pilots and their families are fighting for a contract that recognizes and rewards the efforts of the workers who have done the most to make the company what it is today--one bragged on by Warren Buffet. NJA is clearly a rising star. No fair-minded person could possibly believe that the pilots that have propelled it to the position of number one should settle for wages that are BELOW the industry average.

A rising tide SHOULD lift all boats. Demand a fair contract! VOTE NO!
NJW

 

[netjetwife]

I HAVE posted these things before, but here they are again.

I guess for all the NJA pilots and wives who have read the original post realize that deep down, the proposed TA is reasonable. For the rest of you, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilots that work for companies who fly the same clientele as you do.

Or maybe I was just too busy telling the MEC that the TA is totally unacceptable--NOT EVEN CLOSE. I can only comment on how hard my husband is working/busting his butt for 28K a yr...17 days a month....many 14hr days. Pay is NOT the only problem! Do YOU want NJA opening the door to CVRs being used to discipline pilots. If they got away w/that , what's to stop the other fracs from doing the same thing? How is it still a day off if the company can contact you on your last day home at 2pm and put you in rest for 10 hours so that you can be brought out at midnight? Sorry kids, Daddy has to go to sleep now---THAT'S A DAY OFF??? And what about getting home at 3am on your last work day? Are you gonna feel like spending the morning w/your family 6 hrs later?? That's assuming you were even able to make it home safely after being up/working for 18 hrs or more!

Just because NJA FOs make less than the Captains, does NOT mean that those pilots are well paid. I have never said that pilots in other companies are paid fairly, just that our pilots clearly are NOT. If other pilots have the same problems w/their contract, then I strongly urge THEM to take a stand as well. Pilots are professionals and should be paid as such. How can you argue against the pilots of the #1 frac company expecting NBAA average salaries!? If it's so great at NetJets why is the company having a hard time attracting qualified pilots, only to have half of them either not show up for training or get up and walk out of class once they've gotten the big picture???

To save myself another post---We are staying right now because we believe in this fight. We are voting the TA down. We are working for change; if we don't see an improvement--we'll leave. Then YOU can have the job!

One final comment--you're contradicting yourself. Quoting you....If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilota...."

Even IF that were true, then by saying that NJ pilots have it better, you are CONFIRMING the other pilots' assertion that they ARE underpaid and overworked. By telling them to "think again" you are arguing AGAINST yourself. You point out how you think the grass is greener, even though you've told them it isn't always so.???? Your post is full of flaws, and you ASSUME that because no one responded to your confusing statements that we agree with you?? Think again! I suspect that most just felt that it wasn't worth the trouble. They're probably right!

 

[PseudoName]

Niteflyr....

My ignorance??? Re-read my original post, I never have compared the frac business to the airlines. Enough said!

Griz and your little buddy.....

Nice catch. Ever thought about the meaning behind my name? You are quick to say this is flame bait.....but not so quick to think about the reality behind my post.

Go ahead....laugh away when you read this post. For the past several months, many of NJA vendor operators have been laughing all the way to the bank due to the increased revenue hours from NJA. Hey, the longer you guys babble over this TA, the more money in my pocket. Yes, my pocket! My company has profit sharing....what about yours??

 

[PseudoName]

If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilots that work for companies who fly the same clientele as you do.


Now that is pure BS. There isn't a Citation X Captain anywhere else who has been with the same company for 6 yrs that makes anywhere near as little as I have flying 600 hours per year.

Really?? You make, what, 65K.....working 14 days per month?? That's a part-time flying job.

You think a C-X pilot who flies Part 135 makes more than a C-X NJA pilot? Come on, I thought we stopped smoking that funny looking pipe!!