Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Reality Check for NetJets Pilots

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Pseudo,


I think the problem is your first post was flawed in the beginning because of your ignorance of how the fractional business even works. We do not collect tickets from each pax as they board, the cost is the same regardless of how many we are carrying. They are paying to operate the airplane, so your 150 pax analogy is flawed to begin with. We are being paid to operate the plane with a level of service and convenience unmatched by any charter operator and dare I say many corporate operators. There are basically two ways fracs make money, aircraft sales (which used to be the predominant income in the early 'booming' years) and operations (management fees etc that are becoming more a factor of where the profits need to show up.) We are to the point now where people know how nice our service is to be a part of and should be willing to pay the higher dollar price attached to it.

No argument, the schedule is the best I have had, but the work I do for those seven days far exceeds any other job I have had, and the frequency of the 14 hour day with 10 hours off repeatedly is a killer.

All we are trying to do is make this into the job we all envisioned at one time, which it can be. The money is there, it just needs to be allocated differently. FA's making more than F.O.'s?? Something is flawed there, and we need to fix it.
 
The debate continues----

lawfly said:
My purpose in posting was largely to point out the differences in the business model and revenue stream of a major airline and that of of a fractional, differences which previous posts ignored when they spoke of the number of seats/passengers, net worth of passengers,etc. Can't apply pay as you fly formula to a fractional for determination of revenues, profits.

Is NetJets profitable? I had heard that none of the big fractionals were actually profitable yet.

In an earlier post, you said that FOs are "forced" to get typed. But NetJets does pay for the type, right? Wouldn't use the word "forced". A company-provided type for FOs is a good thing. I hear the schedule is 8 on, 7 or 8 off. I get the basic point: that the pay scales are low overall (even for mid level to senior captains?) , and that certain job conditions, like some of the hotels mentioned earlier, could stand improvement. I say, Good Luck. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Oh, are there any married female pilots at NetJets? Maybe terminology shoud be NetJets pilots and their "spouses". Over and out.

Best to all.
I'll take the easy one first. I use the word "wives" over spouses because our support group does not have any husbands of female pilots. They may be out there, but I don't feel as though I can be a spokesperson for them (don't know them) as I can for the wives in our group. BTW, sikntired is also a founding member of the wives suppot group.

I will stand by my use of the word "forced", as the FOs are not given a CHOICE when it comes to taking the Captain check ride, paid for by the company. My husband is a perfectionist--a trait shared by many pilots--and feels pressure to perform his best on every check-ride. What does he get for the extra work? ZILCH The company gets great advertising--2 Captains on every plane--at his expense. If the FO pay were not so pathetic (28K/yr) then the extra work wouldn't be the additional insult that it is. I find the company's promotion of my husband's skill deceptive and hypocritical, in light of their unwillingness to pay industry standard wages. In short, I believe that NJA should put "their money where their mouth is."

Job conditions are much more serious than hotel accomodations. 14 hr days (common) and missed meals (typical) are very taxing conditions to perform under. Many a night I've talked to my husband as he eats a cold, hours-old meal ( he even knows what to order that will be edible hours later), talks of his long, hectic day, and tells me how he has to be back at the plane in 9 hrs. Jeff works 17 days a month. Anything under 10 hrs is considered getting off early. Getting a hot meal, on time, is seen as having a good day.

Is NetJets profitable? Yes. Not as much as they could be because they have been pouring the money back into the business, expanding rapidly, carrying NJEurope, and paying cash for things like a hanger in NY. We (pilots and their spouses..:)) want the company to invest in their pilot force by paying NBAA level salaries. After wading through the billions coming in from other companies, this is what was said at the 2003 Berkshire Hathaway Annual Meeting about NetJets--which is now a world-wide operation.
www.tilsonfunds.com/brkmtg03notes.html

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"We're slightly profitable in the US and losing money in Europe. 1/2 of all [business jet] miles flown in Europe are by Americans, and this will rise. We've made a huge investment Europe and there will be no competitors behind us. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There are three major competitors. We have always been the biggest and our market share is rising. At 75% recently. I believe all of our competitors are losing money on an operating basis -- not even including asset write-downs. I think some of them will exit the industry -- look at Raytheon's recent prospectus. There will be a shake out, and we will not be one of the ones shook. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This will eventually be a huge business for us -- 10 times what it is currently."[/font]


NetJets pilots and their families are fighting for a contract that recognizes and rewards the efforts of the workers who have done the most to make the company what it is today--one bragged on by Warren Buffet. NJA is clearly a rising star. No fair-minded person could possibly believe that the pilots that have propelled it to the position of number one should settle for wages that are BELOW the industry average.

A rising tide SHOULD lift all boats. Demand a fair contract! VOTE NO!
NJW
 
I HAVE posted these things before, but here they are again.

PseudoName said:
I guess for all the NJA pilots and wives who have read the original post realize that deep down, the proposed TA is reasonable. For the rest of you, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilots that work for companies who fly the same clientele as you do.
Or maybe I was just too busy telling the MEC that the TA is totally unacceptable--NOT EVEN CLOSE. I can only comment on how hard my husband is working/busting his butt for 28K a yr...17 days a month....many 14hr days. Pay is NOT the only problem! Do YOU want NJA opening the door to CVRs being used to discipline pilots. If they got away w/that , what's to stop the other fracs from doing the same thing? How is it still a day off if the company can contact you on your last day home at 2pm and put you in rest for 10 hours so that you can be brought out at midnight? Sorry kids, Daddy has to go to sleep now---THAT'S A DAY OFF??? And what about getting home at 3am on your last work day? Are you gonna feel like spending the morning w/your family 6 hrs later?? That's assuming you were even able to make it home safely after being up/working for 18 hrs or more!

Just because NJA FOs make less than the Captains, does NOT mean that those pilots are well paid. I have never said that pilots in other companies are paid fairly, just that our pilots clearly are NOT. If other pilots have the same problems w/their contract, then I strongly urge THEM to take a stand as well. Pilots are professionals and should be paid as such. How can you argue against the pilots of the #1 frac company expecting NBAA average salaries!? If it's so great at NetJets why is the company having a hard time attracting qualified pilots, only to have half of them either not show up for training or get up and walk out of class once they've gotten the big picture???

To save myself another post---We are staying right now because we believe in this fight. We are voting the TA down. We are working for change; if we don't see an improvement--we'll leave. Then YOU can have the job!

One final comment--you're contradicting yourself. Quoting you....If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilota...."

Even IF that were true, then by saying that NJ pilots have it better, you are CONFIRMING the other pilots' assertion that they ARE underpaid and overworked. By telling them to "think again" you are arguing AGAINST yourself. You point out how you think the grass is greener, even though you've told them it isn't always so.???? Your post is full of flaws, and you ASSUME that because no one responded to your confusing statements that we agree with you?? Think again! I suspect that most just felt that it wasn't worth the trouble. They're probably right!
 
Niteflyr....

My ignorance??? Re-read my original post, I never have compared the frac business to the airlines. Enough said!

Griz and your little buddy.....

Nice catch. Ever thought about the meaning behind my name? You are quick to say this is flame bait.....but not so quick to think about the reality behind my post.

Go ahead....laugh away when you read this post. For the past several months, many of NJA vendor operators have been laughing all the way to the bank due to the increased revenue hours from NJA. Hey, the longer you guys babble over this TA, the more money in my pocket. Yes, my pocket! My company has profit sharing....what about yours??
 
Last edited:
gunfyter said:
If you think you are underpaid, overworked........think again! NetJet pilots fly less, spend more time at home, have better benefits than the majority of pilots that work for companies who fly the same clientele as you do.


Now that is pure BS. There isn't a Citation X Captain anywhere else who has been with the same company for 6 yrs that makes anywhere near as little as I have flying 600 hours per year.
Really?? You make, what, 65K.....working 14 days per month?? That's a part-time flying job.

You think a C-X pilot who flies Part 135 makes more than a C-X NJA pilot? Come on, I thought we stopped smoking that funny looking pipe!!
 
If NetJets is in the dire financial straits put forth by the MEC and the Director the IBT, Airline Division, changes to the business plan are a must regardless of the result of the TA vote and or resulting pilot salaries.
 
LOL!
Never before have so many spend soooo much time.... and been SO WRONG!! I see that many of the internet addicted losers have been very active. Let me just say this upfront. If you are of the mindset that someone would "run away" from some stupid internet "chat" forum... then you have crossed the line that separates reality from fantasy.

Lets break this down for the record:
FL717 said:
I don't remember who it was that knew him, but he alledgedly according to this person who outed him is a Contenental B-777 Captain who was ex-AirForce and a Thunderbird pilot who scabbed to get on at Continental in 1987 or 1988 when he separated from the AirForce. GO NETJETS PILOTS!!! Just say NO!
I was NEVER "warned" by the moderators. My comments were hurtful to some people because the truth sometimes hurts when you are wrong.
I don't fly the B-777. I can't hold that equipment, and wouldn't want to change my current schedule.
I did not fly for the Thunderbirds. I did fly for another Military demonstration team, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
You might want to check the seniority list that I'm on and check names and dates genius. I did not and have not scabbed. In fact, I delayed separation so that I could avoid any of that type of debacle.
You really have your sh!t together there Mister Airtran loser don't you. Hardly anything you posted is in fact correct... but thanks for playing..

English said:
It's not contempt for wives, it is contempt for women.
No... you're wrong also. I have no contempt for women. I have contempt for weak people who use race or GENDER to take advantage of a situation. Therefore I have contempt for you. You and a few others on this forum know what i'm talking about.

Lets talk "military":

Army aviators don't impress me. You want to impress me? Land an F-4 on an aircraft carrier, on a crappy night, in the Med, in the middle of Med winter. Then talk to me about your "fixed wing transition" being the "toughest thing".

Lets talk "wives":

Netjetwife sitting on the internet, eating twinkies and bon bons, addicted to fantasy land, while your husband makes "$28,000 a year is pathetic. But I guess Netjets owes her. You've accomplished NOTHING except print some T-shirts. You are qualified to vacuum and provide conjugal support. I hate to break it to you, but your husband can hire a maid and a hooker to accomplish the same thing... only better.

Let's talk Pay reality for Netjets pilots... anyone??
 
Wow, I really like the ignore feature! It works great!


Blah Blah Blah I can't hear you Les Paul!
 
English said:
Wow, I really like the ignore feature! It works great!


Blah Blah Blah I can't hear you Les Paul!
LOL!! Yeah right. I notice you choose NOT to get into the details of what I was talking about...eh. I'll bet that if I go into those details... that "ignore" feature would suddenly "come off". LOL!

Notice how these previous posters have allowed "fantasy" internet to become so disturbing to them. Pathetic.

Yet they always come back. And I'll guarantee they turn the "ignore" off just to peek out from under their little covers, because they're like crack addicts.

Wanna play English??

Les Paul
 
gunfyter said:
I work 540 man days per year. 65 K is what I should get just for not sleeping in my own bed half my life.

As said before... 5th year Columbus Ohio busdriver gets $69K per year. Don't think he has to take 3 checkrides and two FAA medicals a year either... but thats better than 7th year CX Captain pay.
Man days?? That's a new one. I guess you mean 8 working hours = man day.

If this is the case.....I looked at your "fuzzy math", with a 7/7 schedule, 540 man days would mean you had to work 24 hours each day you were on the schedule. Dude, you just implied that you work every 7/7 schedule without required rest!! Oh wait, let me guess.....you want NJA to pay you while you are sleeping.

WOW!!! I just used your way of determining how many "man days" the average charter pilot works.......792!!!!

I'm going to the boss tomorrow and demand a raise!! Thanks Gunfyter!
 
Griz said:
This message is hidden because Les Paul is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

That makes two on my list. I don't add them when I don't agree with them. I only add them when they can't seem to stop being stupid, pointless and rude. The Yakster and this dim bulb certainly fit that mold.
The reality of the situation is this:

You CANNOT defend the ridiculous notion that Netjets or ANY Fractional can have a solid business plan in place if they pay all their LITTLE bizjet pilots $100,000 PLUS a year to work 7 on 7 off!

That is absurd.

Go ahead and justify it all you want. I'm not saying the work is easy. I'm not saying they are OVERPAID. I think $28,000 is pitiful. I just think that the payscale they threw at you is WORKABLE.

And you don't like it, and can't justify it, and I'm the bad guy. Yeah right..

Oh... and the 540 or 560 "man" hours or days equation that someone quoted is pure B.S.! Are you kidding me.... "man hours..."!

Waaahhh!

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation little boy...

Les Paul

Oops... I forgot.. you can't hear me. That right.. close your eyes and the bad man will go away!!! LOLOLOL!!!
 
Last edited:
LOLOLOL!!

As soon as I made my post and my name showed upon the thread.... "ENGLISH" who claims to be ignoring me raced over and clicked on the thread to read. She just is waiting for me to light in on her.

Don't worry sweetie... your secret is safe with me.

It would just be nice if you would admit that you watch every word I type...

LOL!

Les Paul
 
Geez,

Here's the scoop & the reason I'm here (other than running shotgun for netjetwife):

For anyone interested in working for Netjets....JUST SAY NO!

In the meantime, a new MEC will be going in to twist some arms till someone yells "uncle" Warren.

More money and better work rules will be fought for, along with better Scope, no CVR for discipline, and a ton of other shiz.

We'll give y'all a "thumbs up" when the coast is clear, and THEN it would probably be prudent to apply at Netjets...

Can't we all just get along?...sniff..

im still sikntired
 
Ok people, I will only say this once so get out a pen and paper and write it down so you can review it every night before you go to bed.

"You do not get paid what you are worth. You get paid what you NEGOTIATE."

That is the bottom line. The company negotiators job is to spend as little as possible. If your negotiators failed to get what you consider a fair deal then vote it down and try again. Sitting on this board and talking about what you think you are worth or what OTHERS get paid is simply a waste of time.

My .02
 
DougCorp-9 said:
Ok people, I will only say this once so get out a pen and paper and write it down so you can review it every night before you go to bed.

"You do not get paid what you are worth. You get paid what you NEGOTIATE."

That is the bottom line. The company negotiators job is to spend as little as possible. If your negotiators failed to get what you consider a fair deal then vote it down and try again. Sitting on this board and talking about what you think you are worth or what OTHERS get paid is simply a waste of time.

My .02
EXCUSE ME! What would YOU know about OUR efforts to defeat the POS TA we got slammed with?! As my "wing man" just pointed out, we DO have a reason for posting here. Call it informational picketing, if you will. I have sent out over 150 (stopped counting a few days ago)ecards of support/information this month alone..and it isn't even over. As far as phone call go, let me just say that it's a good thing I have a flat rate long distance deal. I talk to wives AND pilots in my effort to "get out the vote"! We have started a grass-roots movement and are spreading the word. Our decision to use this board to further that goal, is NOT an indicator of the amount of time we are devoting to our cause. If you have forgotten one of the basic rules of etiquette, I'll gladly remind you: If you can't say something nice (supportive) don't say anything! NJW
 
As usual

As usual, everyone wants to look at this from a very limited scope. One needs to look at the business that Netjets is in and skip all the other comparisons. Want to fly for a regional or major, head that direction but do not compare this with those companies.

Netjets main competition is corporate ownership. Many owners have found out that the value of their share has not worked out like the company said. This is a fact that will only get worse as all those new aircraft become used for sale aircraft further diluting the market.

Crew cost is a part of it, and, you should remember that many corporations that fit the Netjets profile flew or had aircraft with one crew on constant call who also did everything else around the place. I have a client with a Sabreliner and a Challenger and one pilot. How much work do you think he does.
 
Keep up the good fight!

I only know a few people at NJA, and they don't gripe and moan much. But one thing I do know is they are worth more than they are paid. This is true of the vast majority of pilots out there. It is true you get what you negotiate and the teamsters is not the only union that has brought a disapointing TA to it's pilots. I hope for pilots everywhere the NJA pilots can hold strong and gain every red cent that it is possible to gain.

For those on these boards who are arguing that pilots can't be paid a decent wage for the jobs they do, think about this. My life long best friend is a non-union crane mechanic at the marine terminals in Norfolk, Va. He has been employed there for 5 years, routinely works 5 hours overtime a week (5 nine hour days/wk) and last year earned over $70,000. No college, no flight certificates, no education or flight school loan payments, no previous military service which could have led to his life being in imminent danger, no pc every 6 months, no medical certificate to loose, home every weekend and each night with his family, and most of all he is not responsible for the safety of his customers when the situation at his job is falling apart, going wrong and they (his customers) are in very real danger of loosing their lives.

With that said it may be true that pilots can't be paid what they are worth, but they sure should be paid what they have earned. And every one of us has earned the right to a decent rewarding career that will allow us to provide for our families better than a non-union crane mechanic.

As a pilot who has been through contract negotiations before, my hat goes off to the NJA pilots for staying strong and fighting the fight for the piloting profession!!!!
 
Zamboni Driver

Better yet -- the 2 Zamboni dirvers at Madison Square Garden (represented by the same union as the NJA pilots, but different local), make over $100,000 per year each. The New York Rangers play 44 games at home (41 regular season, 3 preseason). Overtime for the playoffs, and no practices at the Garden. They do have to clean the ice for a few Icecapades or Disney on Ice events. No other duties when not cleaning the ice. Note: Not all Zamboni drivers make this much.
 
9 pages

Nine pages on this thread and we've wandered all over creation. Should a new thread be started?
 
Hey publisher's go troll someplace else. Your not a profressional pilot and you have no idea what your talking about.

Go back to the kiddy table.
 

Latest posts

Latest resources

Back
Top