Rah To Fly For Midwest Express

[WalterSobchak]

But unlike you - I wont be back on this site for weeks to see it. So, I dont care.

Nice to see that worked out for ya...

 

[Freight Dog]

SMACK!

Well, in my mind... the difference is that Gojet folks went there, to START a job, knowing they were only there to undercut TSA - and went anyways. They had a choice.

We here at RAH were blindsided by this, with JOBS ALREADY IN HAND, and are completely appalled at the situation just as much as everyone else. No choice on our part really. What do you want us to do???... quit our job and say "This simply isnt right on our company's part. Now my family must starve."

Why do you people not understand we dont want to do this? We all understand we look bad for this, its not too hard to see why. But talk to any RAH pilot who isnt hiding behind a screen name, or any midwest pilot (as far as I know...) and we will say the same thing. "This is a bad deal for us all... and our pilot groups/unions stand together in the fight against this."

Well, let's see...

Aloha and ATA pilots were also blindsided by our airlines going under. Overnight... literally. We didn't want this, yet according to regional jet-flying profession defenders on this board, we'd all be lowlives/scabs if we went to GoJet, right? Nevermind that GoJet hiring these highly experienced pilots as street captains would significantly cushion the financial blow we all suffered overnight through no fault of our own. I can tell you that your average Aloha pilot was making over 100k in pay/retirement/bennies, and last thing any one of us would have wanted to do was to captain a regional jet out of ORD for the equivalent of our 2nd year FO wages. But hey... now, it's very slim pickins out there. Are they gonna be scab lowlives if they go to GoJet to try to cushion the impact? Mind you, these are former regional captains, Gulf War veteran fighter pilots, former Boeing captains...

But hey, I have an agenda here... I lost my job at Aloha, and although I've been fortunate to have found another job, many of my friends at Aloha are still drawing unemployment and I sympathize with them. Are they gonna be "scabs" if they take a job at GoJet as captains?

What about a furloughed Midwest pilot who goes to GoJet? Is he/she a scab/lowlife if they go to GoJet because you honored an unpopular decision made by your company and displaced them?

Now, because RAH made a decision that's not exactly popular as you say with the pilot group, what choice you have? Well, you fly your bids, right? It's not struck work. What about sacrificing some of your negotiating capital and get creative about getting furloughed MEH pilots to fly those planes? Everyone is screaming about righteousness and chest thumping unionism, and all I'm saying is 'put your money where your mouth is.' Are you gonna? Naw.... didn't think so.

Let me ask you this... what if Midwest pilots struck and RAH wanted you to fly those routes or face termination? Then what? Sure, I know the correct and the politically correct answer, but let's hope we never have to find out the no-sh*t, real life answer. Somehow I think that answer would be very disheartening and disappointing.

My point is that there are so many blind, shallow idiots on this board, and if these attitudes represent the future of this profession, maybe this profession is indeed doomed. Things aren't exactly black/white like many regional jet profession defenders on this board make them out to be.

 

[pdub20s]

I know Im being a hypocrit by writing a response to this ridiculousness to begin with. But unlike you - I wont be back on this site for weeks to see it. So, I dont care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdRJvT-HqGI

 

[BigLebowski]

Nice to see that worked out for ya...

haha...well said Walter.

The dude abides

 

[jacksjj]

Nice to see that worked out for ya...

I admit it, ya got me.

On a side note: "I once dabbled in pascifism myself there Dude... not in Nam, of course."

 

[PCL_128]

So can someone tell me now what the difference is between RAH and GoJet?

Is it that RAH pilots feel bad about what they're doing to Midwest pilots?

GoJet violates TSA scope, RAH violates no one's scope.

 

[Freight Dog]

GoJet violates TSA scope, RAH violates no one's scope.

The courts didn't seem to think so.

 

[PCL_128]

The courts didn't think seem to think so.

Read the scope, FD. You know as well as I do that the arbitrator was a pro-management lackey. The scope language is amazingly clear.

 

[Freight Dog]

Of course he was a pro-management lackey. However, TSA pilots had our "standard" ALPA scope language that just about every other ALPA regional had - all flying will be performed by pilots on XYZ seniority list. Simple and clear, I agree. However, it clearly wasn't bulletproof. It addressed the airline, not the holding company, or the explicit purpose of that paragraph.

That decision sadly set a new standard for all of us.

It cost every pilot group more negotiating capital to further protect our scope. For example, at my former carrier, we had to add this language:

"B. 1: Add the following sentence to the current paragraph:
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]The Company shall not create, acquire or operate any "alter ego" carrier or "virtual airline" to avoid or evade the provisions of this Section 1. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]It sucks, and I do think the arbitrator's ruling was B.S. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]However, for the same reason we're not out disregarding RLA by conducting illegal strikes, sickouts, we have to either:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]a) fight his ruling and seek to overturn it by legal means[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]or[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]b) accept it and live with it. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Clearly, we're not fighting it. ALPA gave up that fight 3 years ago. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial]Fast forward to today, thousands of ALPA pilots are on the street. ALPA made no recruitment ban against GoJet, and in fact encouraged furloughees to apply there. As such, to discriminate against pilots who take and accept jobs at GoJet, especially these days, and ESPECIALLY if they have Aloha/ATA/Champion/Maxjet/Eos or even UAL on their resumes is extremely hypocritical, shallow and myopic. [/FONT][/FONT]

 

[PCL_128]

We're never going to agree on this. The intent of the language is clear. If you take a job at GoJet, you know that you're violating the intent of the TSA scope clause. It's just that simple.

 

[Freight Dog]

PCL, I'm not arguing the intent of the scope. I'm arguing the aftermath and the effect of the ruling.

Can you produce a legal document currently in effect that supports your position?

If not, how long do you continue to hold a grudge and against whom?

Do you hold a grudge against those who went to GoJet before the ruling? Do you hold a grudge against those who went there after the ruling?

That's like holding a grudge against every UAL pilot or every Continental pilot because both groups went through difficult strikes and still have scabs in their ranks.

It's also like blaming RAH pilots for what's going on at Midwest.

You need to think about things rationally.

 

[PCL_128]

Can you produce a legal document currently in effect that supports your position?

Of course not. This isn't about legal documents.

If not, how long do you continue to hold a grudge and against whom?

Against anyone who takes a position at GoJet, while knowing the circumstances of the company's creation. I hold no grudge against newbies that didn't know better, but I certainly hold a grudge against those who knew the circumstances and still took a position. And yes, that means Aloha, ATA, TWA, etc... pilots. Being out of work doesn't make it ok to willfully take part in violating the intent of the TSA scope.

That's like holding a grudge against every UAL pilot or every Continental pilot because both groups went through difficult strikes and still have scabs in their ranks.

No, it's not. Most UAL and CAL pilots did not cross a picket line. Most GoJet pilots willfully took part in violating the scope language of the TSA pilots. One group is guilty, one is not.

It's also like blaming RAH pilots for what's going on at Midwest.

Again, no it's not. No MEH scope language is being violated, either in intent or letter. The MEH contract allows for this outsourcing. There is no question of that.

You need to think about things rationally.

I am.

 

[Freight Dog]

Of course not. This isn't about legal documents.

Well, sure it is. It's about adhering to the law of the land and interpretations, pal. We have Railway Labor Act that prohibits us from striking. Why aren't we saying to hell with that and strike over pay parity with the rest of the world? OK, a little closer to home... why didn't TSA pilots walk out when GoJet was formed? Why didn't you guys walk out at Pinnacle when your management was clearly negotiating in bad faith? I know why.... legal interpretation of the Railway Labor Act and following the law. Do you agree with RLA? I don't. But I'm supposed to follow it if I choose to work in this profession. The ruling against TSA ALPA was clear. It legally interpreted what was in question. Whether we like the result or not is irrelevant. Our choices are to appeal it, or accept it. ALPA chose the latter.

Against anyone who takes a position at GoJet, while knowing the circumstances of the company's creation. I hold no grudge against newbies that didn't know better, but I certainly hold a grudge against those who knew the circumstances and still took a position. And yes, that means Aloha, ATA, TWA, etc... pilots. Being out of work doesn't make it ok to willfully take part in violating the intent of the TSA scope.

Spoken like someone who was never out of a job. You need to start thinking reality, bud. While many of the pilots mentioned above may be out of a job, the overwhelming majority would never, ever cross the picket line... EVER. Nor would they go against ALPA recruitment ban against a particular airline. Nor would they be seeking jobs while there is an ongoing legal battle against that airline, especially by ALPA.

There's no strike. There's no recruitment ban. There's no legal challenge by ALPA to the ruling. Yet those pilots are potentially facing negative consequences down the road by getting "burned down" by certain emotional elements.

What I'm trying to tell you is that in light of the legal ruling that went unchallenged by ALPA, this fighting amongst pilots over something so friggin' useless only serves management to further divide and conquer pilots. I'm amazed that you are actually taking part and falling for it.

No, it's not. Most UAL and CAL pilots did not cross a picket line. Most GoJet pilots willfully took part in violating the scope language of the TSA pilots. One group is guilty, one is not.

You are correct, most UAL and CAL pilots didn't cross the picket line. However, the majority of current GoJet pilots got hired AFTER the legal ruling was handed down, and ALPA implicitly accepted it. It makes about as much sense as blaming them for TSA woes as it does blaming Continental pilots who were hired after their ALPA strike was declared over. Are they scabs too? Nope. See what I'm saying?

Again, no it's not. No MEH scope language is being violated, either in intent or letter. The MEH contract allows for this outsourcing. There is no question of that.

The end result is the same though. High paid pilots are replaced by low paid pilots with no recourse for the high paid pilots. What about them?

The world is not black/white. It's amazing that many pilots here seem to think it is.

 

[PCL_128]

Well, sure it is. It's about adhering to the law of the land and interpretations, pal. We have Railway Labor Act that prohibits us from striking. Why aren't we saying to hell with that and strike over pay parity with the rest of the world? OK, a little closer to home... why didn't TSA pilots walk out when GoJet was formed? Why didn't you guys walk out at Pinnacle when your management was clearly negotiating in bad faith? I know why.... legal interpretation of the Railway Labor Act and following the law. Do you agree with RLA? I don't. But I'm supposed to follow it if I choose to work in this profession. The ruling against TSA ALPA was clear. It legally interpreted what was in question. Whether we like the result or not is irrelevant. Our choices are to appeal it, or accept it. ALPA chose the latter.

We adhere to the RLA for good reason: if we don't, then the resultant fines will bankrupt the union and destroy our profession. Shunning GoJet scum isn't going to bankrupt the union. This isn't about legal arguments or documents, this is about basic morality and ethics. You simply cannot take a job that you know full well is a job stolen from a unionized pilot by violating his contract.

While many of the pilots mentioned above may be out of a job, the overwhelming majority would never, ever cross the picket line... EVER. Nor would they go against ALPA recruitment ban against a particular airline. Nor would they be seeking jobs while there is an ongoing legal battle against that airline, especially by ALPA.

I see no difference.

What I'm trying to tell you is that in light of the legal ruling that went unchallenged by ALPA, this fighting amongst pilots over something so friggin' useless only serves management to further divide and conquer pilots. I'm amazed that you are actually taking part and falling for it.

The only ones serving management are the GoJet pseudo-scabs who are willfully assisting Hulas in destroying the careers of the TSA pilots. I'm amazed that you are defending such a thing.

You are correct, most UAL and CAL pilots didn't cross the picket line. However, the majority of current GoJet pilots got hired AFTER the legal ruling was handed down, and ALPA implicitly accepted it. It makes about as much sense as blaming them for TSA woes as it does blaming Continental pilots who were hired after their ALPA strike was declared over. Are they scabs too? Nope. See what I'm saying?

No, I don't see what you're saying. CAL and UAL jobs are not still being stolen post-strike. TSA jobs are still being stolen post-ruling, however. This isn't just about what happened at the creation of GoJet, this is about the ongoing contract violation that has twice resulted in TSA pilots being furloughed while GoJet continues to hire. You want to act as though this is all over just because of that ruling, but it isn't. The moral and ethical implications do not change just because of a legal decision.

The end result is the same though. High paid pilots are replaced by low paid pilots with no recourse for the high paid pilots. What about them?

We should fight for them as best we can, but there is no moral or ethical issue for the RAH pilots, because they weren't involved in this decision. GoJet pilots made a decision to take a job that violated a pilot group's contract and stole their flying. No RAH pilot is taking part in violating the MEH contract. The MEH contract contains no scope protections for this. You can't blame a pilot for flying outsourced flying that fully complies with both the letter and intent of the mainline scope language.

 

[BoDEAN]

Sad thing is, we are flying for them, yet me with 160 other people are on furlough. laugh.

 

[Freight Dog]

We adhere to the RLA for good reason: if we don't, then the resultant fines will bankrupt the union and destroy our profession. Shunning GoJet scum isn't going to bankrupt the union. This isn't about legal arguments or documents, this is about basic morality and ethics. You simply cannot take a job that you know full well is a job stolen from a unionized pilot by violating his contract.

OK. Now you're getting emotional, not rational. Basic morality and ethics in light of a legal decision?
NMB rules it a separate carrier. OK, now what?

The only ones serving management are the GoJet pseudo-scabs who are willfully assisting Hulas in destroying the careers of the TSA pilots. I'm amazed that you are defending such a thing.

Not defending it. I'm simply saying that GoJet, by NMB legal ruling, is a separate airline from Trans States. So how are the pilots flying for GoJet pseudo-scabs?

No, I don't see what you're saying. CAL and UAL jobs are not still being stolen post-strike. TSA jobs are still being stolen post-ruling, however. This isn't just about what happened at the creation of GoJet, this is about the ongoing contract violation that has twice resulted in TSA pilots being furloughed while GoJet continues to hire. You want to act as though this is all over just because of that ruling, but it isn't. The moral and ethical implications do not change just because of a legal decision.

Here's what I'm saying... Continental pilots went on strike back in 1983 until 1985. The strike failed and ALPA was ousted. Clearly the management won that one. Are pilots hired say in 1988 (3 years later) considered scabs or scum? With me so far? Legal action over - management won.

Now take a look at GoJet. Formation of GoJet leads to ALPA pursuing legal options i.e. petitions NMB to rule it a single carrier with Trans States. Legal action over - management won. 3 years later, here we are.

Do you not see the parallel?

We should fight for them as best we can, but there is no moral or ethical issue for the RAH pilots, because they weren't involved in this decision. GoJet pilots made a decision to take a job that violated a pilot group's contract and stole their flying. No RAH pilot is taking part in violating the MEH contract. The MEH contract contains no scope protections for this. You can't blame a pilot for flying outsourced flying that fully complies with both the letter and intent of the mainline scope language.

You might have had a legitimate beef with those having gone to GoJet prior to the ruling, but three years later it sounds more like an emotional rant of a pissed off teenage drama queen. As far as MEH pilots are concerned, really, what's the difference? They are out of a job and getting replaced by a $20/hour pilot. It doesn't make it right, does it? Yet, by your definition, those MEH pilots who pursue GoJet would be labeled as pseudo-scabs.

Oh, one last thing. What do you know about Eagle/TSA squabble over American flying? Think TSA pilots didn't violate Eagle pilots' scope? You should ask some Eagle pilots about what they think on that subject. Like I said before, things are very grey, yet you make it seem either black or white.

 

[FlyWolf]

September 23, 2008[/font]
Midwest Pilots File Grievance Against Management’s Plan to Outsource Jobs

[MILWAUKEE, WI—Midwest pilots, represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, Int’l (ALPA), today filed a grievance challenging the company’s decision to sub-contract Midwest Airlines’ flying to Republic Airways. Under the services agreement with Republic Airways Holdings, beginning October 1, all but nine of the airline’s Boeing-717 aircraft will be replaced with Embraer 170 jets. Further, Midwest pilots will be replaced with Republic pilots to fly those aircraft, resulting in well over a hundred additional Midwest pilots losing their jobs

ALPA is asking a neutral arbitrator to issue a cease-and-desist order against the outsourcing of Midwest pilots’ jobs. It also asks management to compensate the furloughed and downgraded Midwest pilots affected by the company’s actions. Under the pilots’ contract, the dispute will be heard by an arbitrator no later than thirty days from today’s filing (subject to the arbitrator’s availability), and shall be decided no later than thirty days following the close of the formal hearing.

“We will not stand idly by as Midwest management flagrantly violates the Midwest pilots’ contract,” said Capt. John Prater, president of ALPA. “We will utilize every legal means to hold this management accountable for its contractual obligations to the Midwest pilots

When the deal with Republic was announced earlier this month, management said that Midwest pilots might operate the EMB 170s in the future on the condition that the pilots acquiesce to significant economic demands before management would be willing to petition the FAA to permit Midwest to add the Embraer fleet to its operating certificate

The Midwest pilots’ contract became amendable on August 31, 2008, and they have attempted to begin the negotiations process with management. “Midwest pilots have waited eight-and-a-half years to address our contractual concerns and needs through the negotiations process. If management truly intended to negotiate with us in good faith, it should have brought the proposal to operate Embraer aircraft to the bargaining table,” said Capt. Jay Schnedorf, chairman of the Midwest pilots’ Master Executive Council (MEC). “Instead, management is holding our jobs hostage in exchange for outrageous and unfair concessions

ALPA is the bargaining representative for the 400 active and furloughed professional pilots at Midwest Airlines. Founded in 1931, ALPA represents 53,000 pilots at 37 airlines in the United States and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at http://www.alpa.org]
[

 

[Freight Dog]

No RAH pilot is taking part in violating the MEH contract. The MEH contract contains no scope protections for this. You can't blame a pilot for flying outsourced flying that fully complies with both the letter and intent of the mainline scope language.

Hmmmm......

 

[CX880]

pcl128 you're a loon fighting a lost cause that even ALPA doesn't care about anymore. Your meaningless e-fights won't accomplish anything. And your hate towards anyone who doesn't fully support alpa is just idiotic. The fact is that Gojet classes are 100% filled by 10-20 year ALPA and furloughed TSA.

Even if Hulas created a separate seniority list to fly for the GJ separate certificate, who cares? It won't and will never affect anyone except for the TSA that voted the flying down forever screwing future TSA pilots of stable flying. Now TSA will be limited to a slow death beacuse they can't even fly 50+ seaters anymore.

No one talks about how they got to that point. The likes of you would like to make it seem like Hulas was anti union who didn't give any thought to their pilots. What is the interest for an owner to start another seniority list, especially when he ends up allowing a union and allows higher pay rates than even TSA were offered? Please admit this whole deal was caused by a hostile, idiotic negotiators who wanted all or nothing from an owner who spent a lot of money setting up the certificate to fly the CRJ7s FOR THEM. There are only so many times an owner from India can be told to go ******************** himself before they take matters into their own hands and forms a separate seniority list.

 

[FlyWolf]

Again, no it's not. No MEH scope language is being violated, either in intent or letter. The MEH contract allows for this outsourcing. There is no question of that.

what???? again, you have no idea of what you are talking about.