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President of ALPA tells regionals to bend over

Mickey Mouse

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Since all the Regionals are going out of business (according to many armchair executives), we better get all the compensation and QOL provisions that we can get in the meantime. When the company goes out of business, we can simply transition to the mainline carriers. In fact, we should really help the process along. We should do everything we can to exacerbate the demise of our company. After the regionals are gone, we can then transition to mainline carriers who will need pilots to fly the routes that were flown by the regionals. Thank you gentlemen for bringing clarity to such a murky situation. Not only am I not taking concessions, I am going to push for a 30% raise, just like mainline pilots did. This is great, thanks!
 

livin'thesim

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How fking gay. A bunch of mainline pilots and wannabes hanging around the regional's crew lounge trying to convince regional pilots that concessions are a necessary reality. We're not buying your condescending diatribes on "how it is", and "how we should play along". We have heard your bedtime stories before and they gave us nightmares. Run along and play with your little friends on your own regional aircraft, the MD-88, Boeing 717, and Airbus 319. Run along now. Try to jerk someone else off. We're not taking concessions. Yes, it's emotional. When someone tries to take my money and quality of life, I get real emotional.


Emotion is a defect found in the losing side.

Failure to identify the real problem is another attribute. Along with a lack of perspective and an entitlement mentality.

No one says you have to like it. But there is no dishonor in accepting reality.

There is no enforcement mechanism to ensure that various regionals will not dutch-auction themselves into oblivion.

If you think you can play tough guy and hold onto pay and QOL while another operator undercuts you, please, give me a demonstration.

I'll use your methodology down on South Beach to demand a 22 year old bikini model as a girlfriend. After all, it's all about knowing what you want and holding out for it, right?
 

livin'thesim

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Since all the Regionals are going out of business (according to many armchair executives), we better get all the compensation and QOL provisions that we can get in the meantime. When the company goes out of business, we can simply transition to the mainline carriers. In fact, we should really help the process along. We should do everything we can to exacerbate the demise of our company. After the regionals are gone, we can then transition to mainline carriers who will need pilots to fly the routes that were flown by the regionals. Thank you gentlemen for bringing clarity to such a murky situation. Not only am I not taking concessions, I am going to push for a 30% raise, just like mainline pilots did. This is great, thanks!


This is not necessarily a bad plan. Why help management since they are going to do it anyway.

I wouldn't give a cent either. But I am also the type who would be ready to walk at a moment's notice, and have savings and a backup plan.

So it's easy for me to not only talk it but walk it.

Your mileage may vary.
 

flyboyike

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Emotion is a defect found in the losing side.

Failure to identify the real problem is another attribute. Along with a lack of perspective and an entitlement mentality.

No one says you have to like it. But there is no dishonor in accepting reality.

I agree. To me the real problem is the lack of hiring at the majors over the past almost decade now. If all that hiring that's been coming since before my first solo actually took place, the problem would have taken care of itself. The reality, however, is that it's been at best a trickle, and I don't see that changing, despite what some say.
 

livin'thesim

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A real "Union" would have set rates at which workers would not work below, and would take strong action against those who voluntarily chose to.

Assume employee "A" was a pipefitter working for ABC Plumbing and employee "B" was a pipefitter working for XYZ Plumbing, and both were members of Pipefitters Local 1234. ABC Plumbing and XYZ Plumbing both bid on a contract to install some sewer lines. Both employee A and employee B make the same wage. It is up to the company to come up with efficiencies other than wages in order to underbid the other. Employee A and employee B go to the same union meetings even though they work for different companies. They see each other as equals and not as competition.

The bottom line is that we, as pilots, suck at this. I remember back in my law enforcement days when the State Dept. of Natural Resources hired non-union labor to erect a large steel pole building to store their equipment. I was called to investigate who drilled several one-inch holes through every pallet of steel sheeting that was waiting to be put up by non-steelworker's union members. Eventually the DNR hired union workers to finish the job.

ALPA is just an association of groups that are more than willing to screw each other over and pay dues for the privilege of doing so. Oh, but you get a fancy magazine as well.


While I do not agree with the vandalism, which is behavior worthy of organized crime, the concept is similar.

Control of the labor supply is key. ALPA is a safety organization that also offers negotiation assistance.

The current "union" structure in the airline pilot market only provides protection against your own company's actions. Industry-wide organization like longshoremen is a whole different game.
 

Nevets

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I'm sure Nevets or one of our other ALPA cheerleaders will be in here to sort this all out for us soon enough.

Although I agree with many of the statements on the email, he conveniently leaves out other facts on how we got to this point. And he doesn't offer a solution for the dynamics that he helped create, especially now since he is the president of ALPA. It seems to me that he is just a very poor leader or worse. I think that our current president is a poor leader (this is true regardless of your political leanings) but just because I feel that way doesn't mean that I want to have a revolution, oust him in a coup, take over, rename the country, and write an entirely new constitution.

Is that enough sorting for the non-union regional DXr types?;)

And thanks for thinking of me...kind of creepy though.
 

CiFIknow

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While I do not agree with the vandalism, which is behavior worthy of organized crime, the concept is similar.

Control of the labor supply is key. ALPA is a safety organization that also offers negotiation assistance.

The current "union" structure in the airline pilot market only provides protection against your own company's actions. Industry-wide organization like longshoremen is a whole different game.


Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating illegal activity. I was just demonstrating how "real" unions work. ALPA can clothe itself in all of the "safety" measures it wants. I will applaud them for aeromedical and other benefits. But to show up at an AFL-CIO convention talking union chest-thumping is laughable. ALPA is a joke as far as a union is concerned.

We hold ourselves up so high as to compare ourselves to Doctors and other high paid professionals. Yet, we are willing to work for a fraction of what a journeyman electrician makes stringing wire.

We are our own worst enemy because we want to fly. I know more than a few contractors who fly for fun who would love to fly for a living if it paid more.

And why should we not be like longshoremen?? How did they get in the position that they are in? An industry-wide moratorium stating the minimum wage one would agree to work for. An amazing concept, except for the d-bag who thinks he is going to stop over at a regional for a couple years until he gets in the right seat of a widebody. Can't account for the dreamers! The dreamers are the ones killing the regional pay scale. And the majors know it. One should enter his profession "knowing" he can make a living and "maybe" make it bigger. Not enter the profession on poverty wage "hoping" he can make it bigger.
 
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Mickey Mouse

Soli Deo Gloria
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Emotion is a defect found in the losing side.

Failure to identify the real problem is another attribute. Along with a lack of perspective and an entitlement mentality.

No one says you have to like it. But there is no dishonor in accepting reality.

There is no enforcement mechanism to ensure that various regionals will not dutch-auction themselves into oblivion.

If you think you can play tough guy and hold onto pay and QOL while another operator undercuts you, please, give me a demonstration.

I'll use your methodology down on South Beach to demand a 22 year old bikini model as a girlfriend. After all, it's all about knowing what you want and holding out for it, right?



You won't get the bikini model, no matter what you do, that's an outcome I can easily predict, unless of course you pay her. If you don't play tough guy, then you play weak guy. I will play tough guy and hold out for more, but you don't have to, because you "planned well", sht, you are loaded! Jesus Christ, you may be the World's Most Interesting Man. It is an entitlement mentality. I am entitled to the same pay and QOL work rules that other airline pilots get for similar work. I planned well too. I am not taking less for the service that I provide, and since I have a vote in the matter, I will use it to affect a desirable outcome for my personal interests and the interests of my colleagues. I appreciate your market analysis and pretentious pontifications, but they fall flat for me. I am the one doing the work. You are an outsider, therefore, you know not what you speak of. Who cares if you did it ten years ago and walked ten miles in the snow to school. You're not doing it now. You are irrelevant.
 
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Mickey Mouse

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We hold ourselves up so high as to compare ourselves to Doctors and other high paid professionals. Yet, we are willing to work for a fraction of what a journeyman electrician makes stringing wire.

That is correct
 

CiFIknow

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We hold ourselves up so high as to compare ourselves to Doctors and other high paid professionals. Yet, we are willing to work for a fraction of what a journeyman electrician makes stringing wire.

That is correct


You know how much experience you need??
 

livin'thesim

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You won't get the bikini model, no matter what you do, that's an outcome I can easily predict, unless of course you pay her. If you don't play tough guy, then you play weak guy. I will play tough guy and hold out for more, but you don't have to, because you "planned well", sht, you are loaded! Jesus Christ, you may be the World's Most Interesting Man. It is an entitlement mentality. I am entitled to the same pay and QOL work rules that other airline pilots get for similar work. I planned well too. I am not taking less for the service that I provide, and since I have a vote in the matter, I will use it to affect a desirable outcome for my personal interests and the interests of my colleagues. I appreciate your market analysis and pretentious pontifications, but they fall flat for me. I am the one doing the work. You are an outsider, therefore, you know not what you speak of. Who cares if you did it ten years ago and walked ten miles in the snow to school. You're not doing it now. You are irrelevant.

Corrections:

You are entitled to nothing. You get what you negotiate. You can attempt to effect a desirable outcome, but there is no way to predict that in advance. In fact, if you thought it was that likely, you would not be on FI in sackcloth and ashes. As far as my irrelevancy, it sounds like your position has been deemed somewhat irrelevant too, by ALPA leadership.


As for me:
I don't always leave comments on flightinfo, but when I do, they tend to irritate you.
 

CiFIknow

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It's all in the negotiation.

I was making a joke about getting a degree at bum-f_ck online University in electronics. Problem is the guy hauling your garbage, delivering your gas, or pumping your septic is making much more than you make flying an airplane. Sad, but true. And me too. Who is the sucker...
 

Mickey Mouse

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Corrections:

You are entitled to nothing. You get what you negotiate. You can attempt to effect a desirable outcome, but there is no way to predict that in advance. In fact, if you thought it was that likely, you would not be on FI in sackcloth and ashes. As far as my irrelevancy, it sounds like your position has been deemed somewhat irrelevant too, by ALPA leadership.


As for me:
I don't always leave comments on flightinfo, but when I do, they tend to irritate you.

I am entitled to that which I can obtain lawfully. Pilot groups most certainly affect the outcome of their final contract by the vote they cast on any TA. As far as being in "sackcloth and ashes", you may have used that archaic term out of context. That term describes an individual who is seeking forgiveness or mourning an event. It is an old Jewish term. I seek no forgiveness for my position, nor am I mourning anything. Since we are getting Biblical, let's invoke the God of Israel and the wisdom of his followers to strengthen our cause for just compensation:

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
 
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PBRstreetgang

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Fact #1 Every plane out there requires a finite number of pilots to operate.

Fact #2 If the above planes are not operating, they are very expensive.

Fact #3 The airlines need to operate airplanes to make money, the little bags of snacks business is very competitive, and given the level of incompetence at the airline exec level, Quaker Oats will kick their azzes every time.

Fact #4 Pilots are the one group they cannot operate without.

FUPM
 

PCL_128

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It's ironic that this guy never would have been elected president if it weren't for the support of so many regional MECs. Many of you who are complaining should be taking out your frustrations on your own status reps who voted for him.
 

livin'thesim

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I am entitled to that which I can obtain lawfully. Pilot groups most certainly affect the outcome of their final contract by the vote they cast on any TA. As far as being in "sackcloth and ashes", you may have used that archaic term out of context. That term describes an individual who is seeking forgiveness or mourning an event. It is an old Jewish term. I seek no forgiveness for my position, nor am I mourning anything. Since we are getting Biblical, let's invoke the God of Israel and the wisdom of his followers to strengthen our cause for just compensation:

Romans 4:4
Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.

Go ahead and hold out for the pay you want. I would be the last one to try and talk you out of it. However, be prepared for the fact that you MIGHT price yourself out of the market. Maybe not. Never know, management groups might be bluffing.

As long as there is a cheaper alternative, expect the mainlines to seriously consider using another carrier.

Supply and demand, simple as that.

And you do seem fairly mournful.
 

Gr82Aviate

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Go ahead and hold out for the pay you want. I would be the last one to try and talk you out of it. However, be prepared for the fact that you MIGHT price yourself out of the market. Maybe not. Never know, management groups might be bluffing.

As long as there is a cheaper alternative, expect the mainlines to seriously consider using another carrier.

Supply and demand, simple as that.

And you do seem fairly mournful.






The "cheaper alternatives" are beginning to have a hard time finding new hires. Lakes and Silver are using captains as first officers, and even so it seems they are having to cancel flights and are pulling out of some markets. There's also the 5000.00 dollar bait that Republic and Eagle are being forced to offer to try and entice new hires...
Maybe age 65, 1500 hour minimums, the new rest rules, along with the long downhill slide of pay/benefits/and quality of life have changed the "supply and demand" side of that equation!:beer:

Simple as that!!:smash:
 
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Golden Falcon

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The only reason ALPO ever bothered to organise regional carriers was to dissuade them from scabbing when the majors strike...and to bring in a bit of extra cash...
 

PCL_128

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The only reason ALPO ever bothered to organise regional carriers was to dissuade them from scabbing when the majors strike...and to bring in a bit of extra cash...

You're an idiot. The regional carriers cost ALPA far more money than they bring in in dues.
 
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