President of ALPA tells regionals to bend over

[SkyNation]

President of ALPA tells regionals to bend over

and in a related story, Nevets and his ilk reply

How far?

 

[flyboyike]

Now, I know there are a lot of grey heads at the regionals, and to them I give my utmost respect.

However, there are a ton of young pups there too, and many who allow themselves to turn pay and career negotiation into a emotionally-charged bout of name-calling and huffing demands that "something be done".

None of you have it anywhere as bad as your forebears who flew in the days before ALPA, before saftey standards, unions, turbine engines and glideslopes, for that matter.

Man up, please, and accept that right now the tide has turned against your position. You need to remain unemotional and look for opportunities to exploit rather than ways to shout about your grievances.

Good points. Kudos also to Capt Moak for finally saying publicly what most of us have known for years, namely that we're all just furlough fodder one way or the other, there's nothing he can do about it even if he wanted to, and I rather doubt he wants to.

I would have thought someone of his stature, however, would have had something more to say about how to solve the problem the regional pilots are facing besides to basically "just grin and bear it".

Now, I'm 38, so I'm neither a young buck, nor am I a greyhead yet. I have no PIC time to speak of, am on my second regional after two furloughs at the first one, the most recent one permanent. It seems to me Capt Moak would have me do one of three things:

1. Declare my career an abject failure, get out of the industry, in order to give the "young bucks" a chance to move up faster, seeing as they have more time to advance.

2. Wait a "few more years" until we're in a "better negotiating position". By then I'll be in my mid-forties, still at a regional and will be the exact cause of the very longevity problem he blames all the troubles on.

3. Do whatever I can to get out of the regionals and go somewhere (anywhere) that does their own flying, no matter what.

Truth be told, #3 is what I've now been trying to do for years, thus far unsuccessfully, however.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

How fking gay. A bunch of mainline pilots and wannabes hanging around the regional's crew lounge trying to convince regional pilots that concessions are a necessary reality. We're not buying your condescending diatribes on "how it is", and "how we should play along". We have heard your bedtime stories before and they gave us nightmares. Run along and play with your little friends on your own regional aircraft, the MD-88, Boeing 717, and Airbus 319. Run along now. Try to jerk someone else off. We're not taking concessions. Yes, it's emotional. When someone tries to take my money and quality of life, I get real emotional.

 

[GogglesPisano]

For the record, I don't want to see any pilot group take concessions. None of us operate in a vacuum and all of our contracts affect others.

No pilot profits when another pilot takes a pay cut.

 

[CiFIknow]

A real "Union" would have set rates at which workers would not work below, and would take strong action against those who voluntarily chose to.

Assume employee "A" was a pipefitter working for ABC Plumbing and employee "B" was a pipefitter working for XYZ Plumbing, and both were members of Pipefitters Local 1234. ABC Plumbing and XYZ Plumbing both bid on a contract to install some sewer lines. Both employee A and employee B make the same wage. It is up to the company to come up with efficiencies other than wages in order to underbid the other. Employee A and employee B go to the same union meetings even though they work for different companies. They see each other as equals and not as competition.

The bottom line is that we, as pilots, suck at this. I remember back in my law enforcement days when the State Dept. of Natural Resources hired non-union labor to erect a large steel pole building to store their equipment. I was called to investigate who drilled several one-inch holes through every pallet of steel sheeting that was waiting to be put up by non-steelworker's union members. Eventually the DNR hired union workers to finish the job.

ALPA is just an association of groups that are more than willing to screw each other over and pay dues for the privilege of doing so. Oh, but you get a fancy magazine as well.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

Since all the Regionals are going out of business (according to many armchair executives), we better get all the compensation and QOL provisions that we can get in the meantime. When the company goes out of business, we can simply transition to the mainline carriers. In fact, we should really help the process along. We should do everything we can to exacerbate the demise of our company. After the regionals are gone, we can then transition to mainline carriers who will need pilots to fly the routes that were flown by the regionals. Thank you gentlemen for bringing clarity to such a murky situation. Not only am I not taking concessions, I am going to push for a 30% raise, just like mainline pilots did. This is great, thanks!

 

[livin'thesim]

How fking gay. A bunch of mainline pilots and wannabes hanging around the regional's crew lounge trying to convince regional pilots that concessions are a necessary reality. We're not buying your condescending diatribes on "how it is", and "how we should play along". We have heard your bedtime stories before and they gave us nightmares. Run along and play with your little friends on your own regional aircraft, the MD-88, Boeing 717, and Airbus 319. Run along now. Try to jerk someone else off. We're not taking concessions. Yes, it's emotional. When someone tries to take my money and quality of life, I get real emotional.

Emotion is a defect found in the losing side.

Failure to identify the real problem is another attribute. Along with a lack of perspective and an entitlement mentality.

No one says you have to like it. But there is no dishonor in accepting reality.

There is no enforcement mechanism to ensure that various regionals will not dutch-auction themselves into oblivion.

If you think you can play tough guy and hold onto pay and QOL while another operator undercuts you, please, give me a demonstration.

I'll use your methodology down on South Beach to demand a 22 year old bikini model as a girlfriend. After all, it's all about knowing what you want and holding out for it, right?

 

[livin'thesim]

Since all the Regionals are going out of business (according to many armchair executives), we better get all the compensation and QOL provisions that we can get in the meantime. When the company goes out of business, we can simply transition to the mainline carriers. In fact, we should really help the process along. We should do everything we can to exacerbate the demise of our company. After the regionals are gone, we can then transition to mainline carriers who will need pilots to fly the routes that were flown by the regionals. Thank you gentlemen for bringing clarity to such a murky situation. Not only am I not taking concessions, I am going to push for a 30% raise, just like mainline pilots did. This is great, thanks!

This is not necessarily a bad plan. Why help management since they are going to do it anyway.

I wouldn't give a cent either. But I am also the type who would be ready to walk at a moment's notice, and have savings and a backup plan.

So it's easy for me to not only talk it but walk it.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[flyboyike]

Emotion is a defect found in the losing side.

Failure to identify the real problem is another attribute. Along with a lack of perspective and an entitlement mentality.

No one says you have to like it. But there is no dishonor in accepting reality.

I agree. To me the real problem is the lack of hiring at the majors over the past almost decade now. If all that hiring that's been coming since before my first solo actually took place, the problem would have taken care of itself. The reality, however, is that it's been at best a trickle, and I don't see that changing, despite what some say.

 

[livin'thesim]

A real "Union" would have set rates at which workers would not work below, and would take strong action against those who voluntarily chose to.

Assume employee "A" was a pipefitter working for ABC Plumbing and employee "B" was a pipefitter working for XYZ Plumbing, and both were members of Pipefitters Local 1234. ABC Plumbing and XYZ Plumbing both bid on a contract to install some sewer lines. Both employee A and employee B make the same wage. It is up to the company to come up with efficiencies other than wages in order to underbid the other. Employee A and employee B go to the same union meetings even though they work for different companies. They see each other as equals and not as competition.

The bottom line is that we, as pilots, suck at this. I remember back in my law enforcement days when the State Dept. of Natural Resources hired non-union labor to erect a large steel pole building to store their equipment. I was called to investigate who drilled several one-inch holes through every pallet of steel sheeting that was waiting to be put up by non-steelworker's union members. Eventually the DNR hired union workers to finish the job.

ALPA is just an association of groups that are more than willing to screw each other over and pay dues for the privilege of doing so. Oh, but you get a fancy magazine as well.

While I do not agree with the vandalism, which is behavior worthy of organized crime, the concept is similar.

Control of the labor supply is key. ALPA is a safety organization that also offers negotiation assistance.

The current "union" structure in the airline pilot market only provides protection against your own company's actions. Industry-wide organization like longshoremen is a whole different game.

 

[Nevets]

I'm sure Nevets or one of our other ALPA cheerleaders will be in here to sort this all out for us soon enough.

Although I agree with many of the statements on the email, he conveniently leaves out other facts on how we got to this point. And he doesn't offer a solution for the dynamics that he helped create, especially now since he is the president of ALPA. It seems to me that he is just a very poor leader or worse. I think that our current president is a poor leader (this is true regardless of your political leanings) but just because I feel that way doesn't mean that I want to have a revolution, oust him in a coup, take over, rename the country, and write an entirely new constitution.

Is that enough sorting for the non-union regional DXr types?

And thanks for thinking of me...kind of creepy though.

 

[CiFIknow]

While I do not agree with the vandalism, which is behavior worthy of organized crime, the concept is similar.

Control of the labor supply is key. ALPA is a safety organization that also offers negotiation assistance.

The current "union" structure in the airline pilot market only provides protection against your own company's actions. Industry-wide organization like longshoremen is a whole different game.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating illegal activity. I was just demonstrating how "real" unions work. ALPA can clothe itself in all of the "safety" measures it wants. I will applaud them for aeromedical and other benefits. But to show up at an AFL-CIO convention talking union chest-thumping is laughable. ALPA is a joke as far as a union is concerned.

We hold ourselves up so high as to compare ourselves to Doctors and other high paid professionals. Yet, we are willing to work for a fraction of what a journeyman electrician makes stringing wire.

We are our own worst enemy because we want to fly. I know more than a few contractors who fly for fun who would love to fly for a living if it paid more.

And why should we not be like longshoremen?? How did they get in the position that they are in? An industry-wide moratorium stating the minimum wage one would agree to work for. An amazing concept, except for the d-bag who thinks he is going to stop over at a regional for a couple years until he gets in the right seat of a widebody. Can't account for the dreamers! The dreamers are the ones killing the regional pay scale. And the majors know it. One should enter his profession "knowing" he can make a living and "maybe" make it bigger. Not enter the profession on poverty wage "hoping" he can make it bigger.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

Emotion is a defect found in the losing side.

Failure to identify the real problem is another attribute. Along with a lack of perspective and an entitlement mentality.

No one says you have to like it. But there is no dishonor in accepting reality.

There is no enforcement mechanism to ensure that various regionals will not dutch-auction themselves into oblivion.

If you think you can play tough guy and hold onto pay and QOL while another operator undercuts you, please, give me a demonstration.

I'll use your methodology down on South Beach to demand a 22 year old bikini model as a girlfriend. After all, it's all about knowing what you want and holding out for it, right?


You won't get the bikini model, no matter what you do, that's an outcome I can easily predict, unless of course you pay her. If you don't play tough guy, then you play weak guy. I will play tough guy and hold out for more, but you don't have to, because you "planned well", sht, you are loaded! Jesus Christ, you may be the World's Most Interesting Man. It is an entitlement mentality. I am entitled to the same pay and QOL work rules that other airline pilots get for similar work. I planned well too. I am not taking less for the service that I provide, and since I have a vote in the matter, I will use it to affect a desirable outcome for my personal interests and the interests of my colleagues. I appreciate your market analysis and pretentious pontifications, but they fall flat for me. I am the one doing the work. You are an outsider, therefore, you know not what you speak of. Who cares if you did it ten years ago and walked ten miles in the snow to school. You're not doing it now. You are irrelevant.

 

[Mickey Mouse]

We hold ourselves up so high as to compare ourselves to Doctors and other high paid professionals. Yet, we are willing to work for a fraction of what a journeyman electrician makes stringing wire.

That is correct

 

[CiFIknow]

We hold ourselves up so high as to compare ourselves to Doctors and other high paid professionals. Yet, we are willing to work for a fraction of what a journeyman electrician makes stringing wire.

That is correct

You know how much experience you need??