Looks like I'll get my keyboard exercise today. Bear in mind where we started, a story of political change, and an observation about the constitution and prayer. None of that has changed, but if a few of you want to sparr a little, ok. Most of us have a little spare time.
Yeah, wouldn't it be great if, in this country that likes to wave the banner of freedom, one's personal religious beliefs were just that - personal. Not worn on one's lapel, not used for political or financial gain, not invoked to demean others with differing views, not wielded in a judgemental manner, not touted to advance one's own agenda. Just a personal belief that brings intellectual or emotional comfort to that individual. If people truly respected the rights of others then one's religious beliefs really wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, we're a long way from realizing that freedom.
Well, there is a good reason for that.
In this nation, founded by Christians who were tolerant of those with differing views, the "personal" belief of Christians is to "go you, into all the world, and preach the Gospel." That means, as a Christian "practices freely" his belief, he is bound by God's word to share it with others. That said, anytime you have sinful MAN engaging in any activity at all, you will find some way to complain. I'm sure you can cite many examples of each individual complaint you mentioned.
Why do beliefs matter? They matter to God, and so they matter to believers, too. If the kind of freedom that you seek is a secular humanist state, where all religious belief is private by law, my impression is that you will never see it. Even the book of Revelation says that the world will be forced to practice Satan's world religion, whatever that turns out to be.
As far as the whole prayer in school thing goes, the ONLY way it would be fair, equal, and all-encompassing would be to have one "prayer" or "blessing" from EVERY religion, and also some sort of equally meaningful statement for us atheists out there. As you can guess, that would be very time-consuming and not practical. Otherwise, to force all schoolchildren to recite or listen to just a Christian prayer would be totally unfair.
I believe that the only way school prayer would be "fair" would be to respect the wishes of the PARENTS, not the nanny state. Their wishes were pretty clear at one point in time. we can clarify their wishes again, if we like, on a school-by-school basis. Take a vote, send home a form, and have an alternate room for non-praying students during the seven minute or so devoted for this activity. Some parents will want their child exposed to the prayer, since many are able to remember how little violence was in the public schools (and America in general) prior to the decision to outlaw this organized activity.
As for the whole founding fathers and "Christian Nation" arguement, all I can say is this -- It doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter whether this is supposed to be a Christian Nation or not. The way for us to succeed as a nation is to respect others. Respect other peoples' right to believe or not believe as they choose, and stay united as one people with a great common interest -- FREEDOM. Hence the ORIGINAL national motto. "E pluribus unum" - From many, one.
Respecting the beliefs of others is a founding principle, and no one wants to put that in jeopardy. Ending persectution of Christians in America won't put respect for anyone out the window.
If people truly respected the rights of others then one's religious beliefs really wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, we're a long way from realizing that freedom.
and...
It does matter and that view will be the fall of this great nation.
Beliefs do matter, if you suppose that they have any individual merit.
If beliefs are simply a preoccupation, an "opiate of the people", a way to spend some time in thought, or an excuse for birds of a feather to flock together, then, no, beliefs don't matter. However, most people who HAVE beliefs don't see them that way. A people without real beliefs have no spiritual rudder, and I think that is what TurboS7 was pointing out. To equate his statement with one of the items that were listed, burping boy, is farcical. Al Queda, or more specifically, the Taliban, WOULD come to your house and kill you for failing to conform to Islam.
Time to grow up, son. Whether you like it or not, not everyone in this country is a Christian, and there's nothing you can do about it.
In fact, there is no agenda to make "everyone" a Christian. Even the Bible says that most will turn away. I can tell you categorically that I don't want everyone in America to be a Christain. To try and make that happen would be a complete waste of time and effort. More to the point of your comment, at one time I wanted everyone to be a liberal. Then, this "son" grew up.
No one will ever come to your door like an IRS agent and ask to see your "Christian documents". According to Revelation, someone WILL require you to worship Satan, if you are living at that time. It's interesting reading. You sould have a look, if only for the intellectual growth of having had the experience.
On Saddam: to compare a preemtive strike against a mad man like Saddam to an attack on Pearl Harbour is beyond belief. If you don't see the difference here, I can't help you. Sudy the background information of both situations, maybe that will help. Ask yourself, just as an exercise, how you feel about our participation in WWII. Was it warranted? Were we in the right?
Thank God there are fellow veterans willing to fight for this country and you and your right to exercise your views, whatever they may be!
Excellent. We have our freedom, however you conceive of it, because many Americans, the vast majority who prayed as school students, incidentally, sacrificed much to preserve and defend this one unique nation, "under God".
Snakum:
I'm always intersted to read your posts. You're not afraid to say what you believe, and generally, you have a good humor about you. That kind of freedom is what we value here in America. Although I disagree with what you are saying, and realize that you are using exaggeration to try and make your point, your right to say what you have said is fundamental.
We don't need to dissolve the UN, anyway. Seems like most of the citizens of the UN nations are sending us their people, so they can become Americans!
In order to see America as the "good guys" in the "white hats", you have to have a conviction about right and wrong, good and evil. If you are a moral relativist, this will be impossible for you.
If, on the other hand, you believe that this is a unique nation, under God, or if you are able to test the relative merits of our sytem of beliefs against those of other nations in a manner of intellectual honesty, then I believe that you will conclude that we are indeed, the "good guys".
Today, we honor those who helped make a discussion like this possible, the good guys we call veterans.
May God bless them, and America.
