Post Election "high"

[burping_boy]

TurboS7 - If you believe that respecting one's differing beliefs will be the fall of this nation, then you are:

1) Immature
2) Immoral
3) No better than Al-Queda

Time to grow up, son. Whether you like it or not, not everyone in this country is a Christian, and there's nothing you can do about it.



cjh - Excellent reply. Thanks.

 

[DoinTime]

A strike against Iraq would in some ways be preemptive as it would preempt FURTHER crimes by Saddam but it would also be punitive since he is already GUILTY of crimes warranting this action.

The same can be said for the attack on Pearl Harbor. Try looking at yourself from someone elses eyes sometime.

 

[Hovernut]

From Doin Time:

The same can be said for the attack on Pearl Harbor. Try looking at yourself from someone elses eyes sometime.

Evidently, you haven't done your time in defense of your country, otherwise you wouldn't make such foolish comments. Had you passed honors in Dress Uniform while sailing past the USS Arizona, had you been on the Memorial and had seen the fuel oil still rising to the surface one drop at a time from that tomb, you might think twice of your pacifist views.

Like it or not, the US and UK are the "Good Guys" of the world...the cowboys with the white hats. In order to secure a safe future for future generations and the human race in general, WE must take care of hoodlums who'd wreak havoc with ill-got weapons of mass destruction.

I, sir, am honored to have served aboard a Trident submarine standing vigilent with up to 240 W-88 warheads at the ready, but hopefully never to be used...get it...never to be used. Reagan's "Peace through strength" philosophy worked. I saw it from the depths of a Trident, and from an underground weapons accelerator at Los Alamos. We build these superior weapons in order not to use them, unlike the Saddams of the world! But when the time comes, they will be used to keep the peace.

Thank God there are fellow veterans willing to fight for this country and you and your right to exercise your views, whatever they may be!

Happy Veteran's Day!

 

[H8U]

Prodigal

"Huh? Go back and read my post again. I'm curious as to how you arrive at that ill-gotten conclusion. Quite the opposite my, good man."


I should have been more specific on that one, it wasnt directed to you, it was in response to those sandal-wearing tree-huggers from previous posts.

 

[Snakum]

"Like it or not, the US and UK are the "Good Guys" of the world...the cowboys with the white hats. "

That is one of the most unbelievably naive things I have ever read in my entire life. No wonder the Arabs hate us.

And before you start in with the right-wing hawk rhetoric ... I gave five years of my life in defense of your right to be ill-informed yet opinionted. I did my part for Uncle Sugar. But that statement is just ignorant. We are moving toward being a nation that bullies and coerces, the great 'World Police' and if George Jr. had his way we'd dissolve the UN and take over the whole show. Now I'm waiting for comments like "That's exactly what we should do" ... no ... what we should do is start looking after our own here at home and get our big fat nose out of other people's business.

And Turbo ... I have alot of respect for you, but if religion isn't kept out of legislation we're all screwed. Let's pretend George Jr. declares Marshall Law after another WTC-style attack and implements his own interpretation of the constitution ... the first time your interpretation of biblical law conflicts with his ... off to the camps for you! WHo decides? There are more versions of what the Bible really says than you could count with a Chinese adding machine.

Let's leave religion out of politics ... as the founding fathers and God intended.

Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

Looks like I'll get my keyboard exercise today. Bear in mind where we started, a story of political change, and an observation about the constitution and prayer. None of that has changed, but if a few of you want to sparr a little, ok. Most of us have a little spare time.

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if, in this country that likes to wave the banner of freedom, one's personal religious beliefs were just that - personal. Not worn on one's lapel, not used for political or financial gain, not invoked to demean others with differing views, not wielded in a judgemental manner, not touted to advance one's own agenda. Just a personal belief that brings intellectual or emotional comfort to that individual. If people truly respected the rights of others then one's religious beliefs really wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, we're a long way from realizing that freedom.

Well, there is a good reason for that.
In this nation, founded by Christians who were tolerant of those with differing views, the "personal" belief of Christians is to "go you, into all the world, and preach the Gospel." That means, as a Christian "practices freely" his belief, he is bound by God's word to share it with others. That said, anytime you have sinful MAN engaging in any activity at all, you will find some way to complain. I'm sure you can cite many examples of each individual complaint you mentioned.

Why do beliefs matter? They matter to God, and so they matter to believers, too. If the kind of freedom that you seek is a secular humanist state, where all religious belief is private by law, my impression is that you will never see it. Even the book of Revelation says that the world will be forced to practice Satan's world religion, whatever that turns out to be.

As far as the whole prayer in school thing goes, the ONLY way it would be fair, equal, and all-encompassing would be to have one "prayer" or "blessing" from EVERY religion, and also some sort of equally meaningful statement for us atheists out there. As you can guess, that would be very time-consuming and not practical. Otherwise, to force all schoolchildren to recite or listen to just a Christian prayer would be totally unfair.

I believe that the only way school prayer would be "fair" would be to respect the wishes of the PARENTS, not the nanny state. Their wishes were pretty clear at one point in time. we can clarify their wishes again, if we like, on a school-by-school basis. Take a vote, send home a form, and have an alternate room for non-praying students during the seven minute or so devoted for this activity. Some parents will want their child exposed to the prayer, since many are able to remember how little violence was in the public schools (and America in general) prior to the decision to outlaw this organized activity.

As for the whole founding fathers and "Christian Nation" arguement, all I can say is this -- It doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter whether this is supposed to be a Christian Nation or not. The way for us to succeed as a nation is to respect others. Respect other peoples' right to believe or not believe as they choose, and stay united as one people with a great common interest -- FREEDOM. Hence the ORIGINAL national motto. "E pluribus unum" - From many, one.

Respecting the beliefs of others is a founding principle, and no one wants to put that in jeopardy. Ending persectution of Christians in America won't put respect for anyone out the window.

If people truly respected the rights of others then one's religious beliefs really wouldn't matter. Unfortunately, we're a long way from realizing that freedom.

and...

It does matter and that view will be the fall of this great nation.

Beliefs do matter, if you suppose that they have any individual merit.

If beliefs are simply a preoccupation, an "opiate of the people", a way to spend some time in thought, or an excuse for birds of a feather to flock together, then, no, beliefs don't matter. However, most people who HAVE beliefs don't see them that way. A people without real beliefs have no spiritual rudder, and I think that is what TurboS7 was pointing out. To equate his statement with one of the items that were listed, burping boy, is farcical. Al Queda, or more specifically, the Taliban, WOULD come to your house and kill you for failing to conform to Islam.

Time to grow up, son. Whether you like it or not, not everyone in this country is a Christian, and there's nothing you can do about it.

In fact, there is no agenda to make "everyone" a Christian. Even the Bible says that most will turn away. I can tell you categorically that I don't want everyone in America to be a Christain. To try and make that happen would be a complete waste of time and effort. More to the point of your comment, at one time I wanted everyone to be a liberal. Then, this "son" grew up.

No one will ever come to your door like an IRS agent and ask to see your "Christian documents". According to Revelation, someone WILL require you to worship Satan, if you are living at that time. It's interesting reading. You sould have a look, if only for the intellectual growth of having had the experience.

On Saddam: to compare a preemtive strike against a mad man like Saddam to an attack on Pearl Harbour is beyond belief. If you don't see the difference here, I can't help you. Sudy the background information of both situations, maybe that will help. Ask yourself, just as an exercise, how you feel about our participation in WWII. Was it warranted? Were we in the right?

Thank God there are fellow veterans willing to fight for this country and you and your right to exercise your views, whatever they may be!

Excellent. We have our freedom, however you conceive of it, because many Americans, the vast majority who prayed as school students, incidentally, sacrificed much to preserve and defend this one unique nation, "under God".

Snakum:

I'm always intersted to read your posts. You're not afraid to say what you believe, and generally, you have a good humor about you. That kind of freedom is what we value here in America. Although I disagree with what you are saying, and realize that you are using exaggeration to try and make your point, your right to say what you have said is fundamental.

We don't need to dissolve the UN, anyway. Seems like most of the citizens of the UN nations are sending us their people, so they can become Americans!

In order to see America as the "good guys" in the "white hats", you have to have a conviction about right and wrong, good and evil. If you are a moral relativist, this will be impossible for you.

If, on the other hand, you believe that this is a unique nation, under God, or if you are able to test the relative merits of our sytem of beliefs against those of other nations in a manner of intellectual honesty, then I believe that you will conclude that we are indeed, the "good guys".

Today, we honor those who helped make a discussion like this possible, the good guys we call veterans.

May God bless them, and America.

 

[bubba]

GOD

Great thread, Timebuilder.

Dittos to you and Turbo

GOD exists and created man so that he (GOD) could have a companion. Our mission in life is to worship and honor GOD. He became man in the body of Jesus the Christ in order to provide man a no-fault way to enter into his (GOD's) presence. The Bible, mankinds most verifiable ancient manuscript, was given so that we could know how to live a life in service to our Savior. Read it.

To those who wish to believe that GOD doesn't exist, I hope that you someday come to realize the error of your way before it's too late.

If you're living like there is no GOD, you'd better be right. I prefer to live under the assumption that GOD lives and that I will one day answer for my actions. If I am wrong, I will have lead a decent life and treated my fellow humans as I want to be treated. If the GOD deny'ers are wrong, they better develop asbestos underwear.

Bubba

 

[burping_boy]

Timebuilder,

I'm glad you feel the way you do about most of what you posted, but there's a couple points I disagree with and want to address.

I believe that the only way school prayer would be "fair" would be to respect the wishes of the PARENTS, not the nanny state. Their wishes were pretty clear at one point in time. we can clarify their wishes again, if we like, on a school-by-school basis. Take a vote, send home a form, and have an alternate room for non-praying students during the seven minute or so devoted for this activity. Some parents will want their child exposed to the prayer, since many are able to remember how little violence was in the public schools (and America in general) prior to the decision to outlaw this organized activity.

The big problem with your idea is this --> division of the student body. Do you know what happens when someone doesn't conform to the majority in school? Their life becomes hell. You have to remember, we're talking about children. When someone is seen as "different", they are basically screwed. They will be teased, tormented, and even beat-up to no end. Is that what you want? Because that is EXACTLY what will happen.

Also -- you will not find one single fact to back up your statement that there was less violence in school before prayer was taken out. It just isn't true. If you think you have evidence, by all means post a link...

If beliefs are simply a preoccupation, an "opiate of the people", a way to spend some time in thought, or an excuse for birds of a feather to flock together, then, no, beliefs don't matter. However, most people who HAVE beliefs don't see them that way. A people without real beliefs have no spiritual rudder, and I think that is what TurboS7 was pointing out. To equate his statement with one of the items that were listed, burping boy, is farcical. Al Queda, or more specifically, the Taliban, WOULD come to your house and kill you for failing to conform to Islam.

No, what TurboS7 was saying is that it DOES matter whether or not this is a Christian nation, and disregarding that in the name of respecting different people with different beliefs will be the downfall of the country. THAT is what he meant, because someone like him won't be happy unless the US becomes a THEOCRACY. He'll only vote for the most bible-thumping politicians, no matter where they stand on REAL issues, and he thinks respecting others is wrong. I didn't say he was EQUAL to Al-Queda, I said he was no better than Al-Queda. His apparent intolerance is what eventually leads people to commit that kind of terrorism. That's where it all starts.

This is something I take a major issue to. My analysis of him stands.


Bubba -- It's not worth my time to even read your reply, let alone respond to it. "Hi, I'm Bubba. I'm right, you're wrong, and if you don't believe what I believe you're going to hell!"

Pathetic. God, please save me from your followers!

[EDIT] Timebuilder, I just wanted to add that I have read the bible, which is precisely why I don't understand how anyone could believe what it says! What a terrible, horrific book. If you disregard the horrors and contradictions of the OT, then you are only fooling yourself.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Timebuilder,


I've always enjoyed your posts and have followed your progression as a pilot on this board for a while. It's been an education for me as has reading about everyone elses trek to professional pilot that I am privy to read via this fabulous board.

But you're response concerning Clarence Thomas....??????

"Truly, Clarence Thomas is the dem's worst nightmare: an intelligent, independent black jurist who didn't need a special social program to gain his entrance to the highest court in the land. Undoubtedly, this is why such a fearsome load of manure was delivered to a congressional hearing to attempt to derail his confirmation. Antonin Scalia is an equally qualified judge, and both Helms and Thurmond have been consistently returned to service by their constituents. What could be more American than that process of people choosing their representatives?"

Timebuilder,


He directly benefited from affirmative action. He is only there because he is black and conservative. He was Judge Marshall's replacement remember. He was the head of the EEOC because he was one of the few black conservatives during the Reagan and Bush administration they could find to fill a post. He may have done a good job in that position, I have no idea about that, but hasn't almost every supreme court judge come from the bench somewhere else?? That way they have a track record a president can observe and gauge future decisions by?? Nothing guaranteed of course!

His record at Yale was considered mediocre. I bet everyone else on the Supreme Court was a straight A student. Whether I agree with their leanings or not, I'll admit they were probably superstars in the classroom!!! He is there because of affirmative action, which he opposes!

Your argument on the qualifications of Helms and Thurmond to represent their respective states and our country could easily be applied to Ted Kennedy! I'm sure he has won elections by margins very similar to theirs if not greater.

By the way, I lean left on many issues but have voted Republican more times than I can remember. Just that some of those guys are so far right they represent such a small portion of America, I'd rather see them elsewhere other than in our nations capital, shaping laws!

Respectfully,


Mr. I.

 

[Hovernut]

Snakum

Now I'm waiting for comments like "That's exactly what we should do" ... no ... what we should do is start looking after our own here at home and get our big fat nose out of other people's business.

Now that would work 100 years ago when these tin-horn dictators didn't have the weapons and delivery systems they have now. The Isolationist theory went out the window, first with Pearl Harbor, and recently with 9/11. Are you blind to that fact? If you've served over seas, then you've seen the radicals. I spent time in the gulf 10 years ago and the reason the Arabs hate us is because we're the roadblock in thier muslim-directed takeover of the world. Christians offer salvation, muslims demand it at gunpoint!

Timebuilder...words well spoken!

Snakum, thanks for your service.