Post Election "high"

[burping_boy]

TXCAP4228 and cjh,

To be honest, this is the first time I've debated in years! When you see the overwhelming urge of people on this forum to throw their religion into every thread, you just gotta say something eventually!

Anyway, I'm not gonna continue the debate much longer. I respect everyone involved, both sides of the argument (aside from the willful closed-mind of some people). But it's been so long since I've done this that I felt some practice was in order...

Think of it as me.... getting current!

 

[Timebuilder]

What prophecies? Name some prophecies that have been fulfilled, please! In fact, name ONE prophecy that has been fulfilled that can be verified outside the boundaries of the bible.

Burping Boy:

You continue to want "independent" and "verifiable" proof to support Christian belief. I will leave you to desire that, but realize this, as a logical example: we have a system of laws in this country, and they are not fairly interpreted by a council consisting of those who agree and those who disagree with those laws. Instead, we have judges, who by the very laws they are bound to interpret, are both arbiters and defendeders of the law. So is it in this situation. Enigma may give you several references to what he sees as "evidence". You, on the other hand, will see it only as "opinion". Truthfully, if I could show you a meter or screen that met all of the "scientific" tests for "proof", I think it is likely that you would say that a believer "rigged" the information. As time moves ahead, we are slowly approaching a level of proof that you may find satisfactory. If Enigma names a fulfilled prophecy for you and provides a reference, you will dismiss him out of hand, since the proof is provided from a standpoint of a believer!

This what I meant about owning this position. You see, almost every belief received airtime over my seven year New Age radio stint. The show was an examination of beliefs, a "buffet" for spiritual seekers. Conspicuously absent were Christians. I didn't want any of them on the show. I said very much the same things as you have said here, so I am very familiar with what you want. In my opinion, you will not be satisfied.

 

[Timebuilder]

One more thing: if you consider yourself to be a debater, then discontinue using references like "closed minded". Think about it, since the same descriptor can be applied to your own beliefs.

It is truly a matter of perspective.

 

[burping_boy]

Therefore, when a teacher leads a prayer, they are not acting on behalf of the government to "establish a religion".

YES, Timebuilder, they ARE acting on behalf of the government. Teachers in public schools are government employees. Therefore, anything they do is on behalf of the government! When they try to lead a class in prayer, they are INDEED "establishing a religion" in their government-sanctioned classroom. What does the word "establish" mean? Let's take a look....

Main Entry: es·tab·lish
Pronunciation: is-'ta-blish
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English establissen, from Middle French establiss-, stem of establir, from Latin stabilire, from stabilis stable
Date: 14th century
1 : to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement
2 obsolete : SETTLE 7
3 a : to make firm or stable b : to introduce and cause to grow and multiply <establish grass on pasturelands>
4 a : to bring into existence : FOUND <established a republic> b : BRING ABOUT, EFFECT <established friendly relations>
5 a : to put on a firm basis : SET UP <establish his son in business> b : to put into a favorable position c : to gain full recognition or acceptance of <the role established her as a star>
6 : to make (a church) a national or state institution
7 : to put beyond doubt : PROVE <established my innocence>

So as you can see, Timebuilder, the word "establish" contains a few meanings that coincide with mere prayer in the classroom. Therefore, establishing religion. Inciting prayer INDEED falls under "establishing religion". Or do you only choose 1 or 2 parts of the FULL definition of establish?

If I, as a teacher, tell my class that everyone in the US should drive on the left side of the road, that does not establish driving on the left side of the road as the official policy.

Acutally, driving on the left side of the road IS the official law and policy, and a teacher would be doing a good thing by telling some of the kids these days to do so!

In four years of public school, I never heard a student being sanctioned by the teacher for not praying, and contrary to what has been posted previously in this thread, no fights or divisions occured among students because of praying or not praying.

Again, you are taking ONLY YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and making it an absolute truth. Just because you didn't experience it or hear about it DOES NOT mean it didn't happen. I personally have witnessed times when (even in this day of no school prayer) non-christian classmates have been harassed by christian classmates. Are you to disregard anyone else's experience but your own, just as you disregard reason, logic, and reality?


Timebuilder, will you EVER answer my question? Will you ever tell my why you can't just send your kids to one of the GAZILLIONS of religious schools in the country if you want them to pray in class?

Here's why --> You aren't concerned about free excercise. You are really just trying to force your mental disease on as many people as possible. That's why you can't just leave public school alone. Doesn't matter that outside of school ALL kids have parents or mentors to give them a belief structure. By gawd, you want only ONE prayer in school and that's a CHRISTIAN prayer.

You are a very selfish and inconsiderate individual. I don't care WHAT your bible tells you to do.

 

[Timebuilder]

You are a young man of opinions, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, Burping Boy. I think you need to refine your tecnique a little. All right, a LOT.

The fact is that a teacher doeas not make law, no matter how strident you become. That, and that alone, is what the establishment clause was written to convey.

Why not send kids to a Christian school? Many do. If and when I have some, you can rest assured that I will do so if I can. Tell you what: you return my tax money, every cent, and I will be able to afford it. I should not be forced to "pay twice" to keep someone from being offeded by a prayer. But that's not what this debate, or I should say, streetcorner argument, is about. We won't settle the truth of the Bible here, guaranteed. That said, unless you have a reasonable explanation of how a teacher makes official US policy outside of Congress, we also have a stalemate on the estaqblishment clause argument.

 

[burping_boy]

Timebuilder,

You continue to want "independent" and "verifiable" proof to support Christian belief. I will leave you to desire that, but realize this, as a logical example: we have a system of laws in this country, and they are not fairly interpreted by a council consisting of those who agree and those who disagree with those laws. Instead, we have judges, who by the very laws they are bound to interpret, are both arbiters and defendeders of the law. So is it in this situation. Enigma may give you several references to what he sees as "evidence". You, on the other hand, will see it only as "opinion". Truthfully, if I could show you a meter or screen that met all of the "scientific" tests for "proof", I think it is likely that you would say that a believer "rigged" the information. As time moves ahead, we are slowly approaching a level of proof that you may find satisfactory. If Enigma names a fulfilled prophecy for you and provides a reference, you will dismiss him out of hand, since the proof is provided from a standpoint of a believer!

All I want is something outside of the bible to verify anything you have to say. Unfortunately for you, that literary piece of trash is the be-all and end-all of any "proof" or "evidence" you might have. There IS nothing outside the bible to verify your claims. I don't care what you believe, you CANNOT use an item to verify itself! "Proof" is something that is an independant verifier. You can't use the bible to prove itself. Obviously you don't know what proof and evidence even mean.

Please, ANYTHING you have to show me outside the bible itself, give me a link, or some info. I am interested! Oh, but you'll only direct me to a book by someone who uses the bible to verify the bible!

Again, no proof. Just BS.

In my opinion, you will not be satisfied.

I will never be satisfied until you can show me literal, defined, proof. Too bad there IS nothing outside the bible, eh?

One more thing: if you consider yourself to be a debater, then discontinue using references like "closed minded". Think about it, since the same descriptor can be applied to your own beliefs.

It is truly a matter of perspective.

No. You admitted yourself that you are closed-minded. You REFUSE to consider anything outside or contrary to your established beliefs and therefore you are the textbook definition of closed-minded. It is NOT a matter of perspective.

I, on the other hand, always have and always will allow for a possibility that I could be wrong, and will seriously consider any REAL DEFINED empirical evidence presented to me. I am, by definition, open-minded.

Looks like the dictionary is absolutely meaningless to you.

 

[Timebuilder]

Again, no proof. Just BS.

If you mean Bible Scripture, I agree.

You aren't going to get what you want. I don't know why you keep at it.

Several times I've tried to explain to you that the truth of the Bible is outside of the ways of man. This angers you, since the ways of man is the "basket" where you have all of your "eggs". I was in that spot, as I said.

I think you need to switch to decaf.

 

[burping_boy]

You are a young man of opinions, and that's not necessarily a bad thing, Burping Boy. I think you need to refine your tecnique a little. All right, a LOT.

I don't care what you think. My technique is just fine, I just happen to be on the other side of the fence. I think you need to open your locked, diseased mind.

The fact is that a teacher doeas not make law, no matter how strident you become. That, and that alone, is what the establishment clause was written to convey.

I never said a teacher makes law. The fact is, a teacher is an employee of the United States government. A teacher REPRESENTS our government. No laws have to be made here, Timebuilder! If a school sanctions one type of prayer only, it gives the appearance that the US government sanctions that specific religion!

Why not send kids to a Christian school? Many do. If and when I have some, you can rest assured that I will do so if I can. Tell you what: you return my tax money, every cent, and I will be able to afford it. I should not be forced to "pay twice" to keep someone from being offeded by a prayer. But that's not what this debate, or I should say, streetcorner argument, is about. We won't settle the truth of the Bible here, guaranteed. That said, unless you have a reasonable explanation of how a teacher makes official US policy outside of Congress, we also have a stalemate on the estaqblishment clause argument.

Have you ever heard of vouchers? You don't need to pay twice nowadays to send your kid to a religious school, since the government more and more is trying to violate the 1st ammendment by funding religion. Nice try though.

Again, I never said that a teacher makes law. But an official sanctioned prayer of one religion only in public school gives the IMPRESSION of a government-sanctioned religion. And YES, if it became REQUIRED for public schools to have prayer, then a law WOULD have been passed and then it WOULD directly violate the establishment clause! BY DEFINITION.

But we all know how you feel about literal definitions.

 

[burping_boy]

If you mean Bible Scripture, I agree.

Bada-bing! We got a comedian here, folks! Ah cha cha cha cha chah!

You aren't going to get what you want. I don't know why you keep at it.

Several times I've tried to explain to you that the truth of the Bible is outside of the ways of man. This angers you, sine the ways of man is the "basket" where you have all of your "eggs". I was in that spot, as I said.

I keep at it because you keep at it. I KNOW I'm not going to get anything real from you. You keep making claims that there are "hundreds of fulfilled prophecies", but all they are are prophecies that start in the bible and end in the bible. "My bible tells me so and it's all the proof I need". And also, "the Bible is above man" or "outside of the ways of man", meaning you disregard REALITY.

You could be so much more intelligent, Timebuilder. But you totally disregard reason, logic, and even definition! You are a very mentally and emotionally challenged individual.

[EDIT] You said:

I think you need to switch to decaf.

Actually, I don't drink coffee. The ignorance of your belief system leaves a bad enough taste in my mouth, why would I want to make the taste worse?

 

[burping_boy]

Okay,

We're starting to mudsling. This thread is on the verge of becoming a flame war, so I think it's best if I stop debating. As much as I disagree with some of you, I don't want to degenerate the whole thing to that level.

Good debate all. If you all want to post some closing arguments, go ahead. I will read them, but I promise not to reply.

Take care, and safe flying to EVERYONE.

 

[Jeff G]

We're starting to mudsling. This thread is on the verge of becoming a flame war, so I think it's best if I stop debating.

I'm glad you said that yourself, because I was just going to post to bring your attention there. I was following this "debate" with some interest, but it was getting to the point of namecalling ("locked, diseased mind", etc.) instead of exchanging ideas. Not that much was actually being exchanged.

Have you ever heard of vouchers? You don't need to pay twice nowadays to send your kid to a religious school, since the government more and more is trying to violate the 1st ammendment by funding religion.

Just a thought concerning school vouchers. It's only since the 20th century that there was such a thing as an extensive public school system. It is not listed in the Constitution as an essential government function, and this function assumed by Congress has turned out to be a disaster. The schools are graduating a significant percentage of functionally illiterate "students", and often any learning occurs in spite of the curriculum. Not to mention that many schools are no longer allowed to provide any sort of moral structure (under the Establishment clause) or even to enforce simple discipline (because of students' so-called First Amendment "rights"). Public schools have proved to be wholly unsuitable for moral teaching (by law!), among other things. There are many reasons why a public "education" is increasingly an oxymoron.

If parents, under a sort of "conscientious objector" status re: public schools, were allowed to opt out of their school tax and send their kids wherever they wanted, including religious schools, how is this public support of religion? They are simply getting their own money back to put to the use that they choose. It's no different than spending that money on a private military academy or high school of the arts. Religion in and of itself is not the issue. The right of parents to choose how their own tax money is used is. Congress has abused their taxation power in an area they have no business being. The important concept is to take back the power of indoctrination (which is what school is) from Congress and put it back where it naturally belongs, the parents. This is true even if parents themselves don't want the responsibility.

 

[TXCAP4228]

This is a tough subject and I have to say I am impressed with how people from both sides have handled themselves. burping boy, I agree with your philosphical position, but your tone is bordering on insulting - and you're getting down to ad hominum statements.... Timebuilder hasn't said insulting things to you but from my perspective (and keep in mind that I agree with your point of view philosophically) you're really going after him. The tone of your rhetoric may be a little over the top. Believe me, I know how easy it is to get worked up by this, but you're blood pressure's gonna go through the roof and you're gonna wind up with a problem for your next medical!. Take a deep breath.

That said, unless you have a reasonable explanation of how a teacher makes official US policy outside of Congress, we also have a stalemate on the estaqblishment clause argument.

This thread may be pretty close to worn out. But I wanted to address Timebuilder's position above. A government employee acting in an official capacity to a captive audience is one of two things: 1) already an establishment or 2) <at a minimum> respecting an establishment. And the establishment clause is not limited to congress - since all of the Bill of Rights (eg, the limitations on government) apply to state and local governments too.

 

[cjh]

Just a thought concerning school vouchers. It's only since the 20th century that there was such a thing as an extensive public school system. It is not listed in the Constitution as an essential government function, and this function assumed by Congress has turned out to be a disaster. The schools are graduating a significant percentage of functionally illiterate "students", and often any learning occurs in spite of the curriculum. Not to mention that many schools are no longer allowed to provide any sort of moral structure (under the Establishment clause) or even to enforce simple discipline (because of students' so-called First Amendment "rights"). Public schools have proved to be wholly unsuitable for moral teaching (by law!), among other things. There are many reasons why a public "education" is increasingly an oxymoron.

If parents, under a sort of "conscientious objector" status re: public schools, were allowed to opt out of their school tax and send their kids wherever they wanted, including religious schools, how is this public support of religion? They are simply getting their own money back to put to the use that they choose. It's no different than spending that money on a private military academy or high school of the arts. Religion in and of itself is not the issue. The right of parents to choose how their own tax money is used is. Congress has abused their taxation power in an area they have no business being. The important concept is to take back the power of indoctrination (which is what school is) from Congress and put it back where it naturally belongs, the parents. This is true even if parents themselves don't want the responsibility.

I totally agree. It's so sad to see the shape of our "educational" system. I have friends with kids in public schools and other friends whose children are in private schools (secular, btw). The difference in the level of learning is amazing and sad. I would support the elimination of all school tax, replacing it instead with privatized education.

Now, if only I could do the same where social security is concerned.

 

[Snakum]

Enigma ... you need to provide references. I respect you, and I will try not to make this personal, but ...

The most prolific historical writers of the time Jesus supposedly walked on the earth never mention him. The old and new testament is so full of contradictions as to be laughable when read with a critical mind. It's just silly. What you believe visavis blind faith is not provable at all. It is illogical in the extreme. Your belief in an old white-haired puppet-master in the sky is no more rational than the Roman belief in the gods of Olympus. There are so many things that are ignorant (and distasteful) about Judaism, Islam, and Christianity that I don't know where to begin.

One day human beings will be able to leave this dangerous and nonsensical need for a 'devine creator' behind and move forward to a new era of logic, reason, and love for our fellow man without regard to color or creed. No more killing abortionists, no more murder, rape and pillage in the middle east, no more airplanes into buildings, etc.

Imagine that

Rev. Thich Minh Thong
"Secular Humanist posing as a Buddhist Monk"

 

[prodigal]

Snakum

"no more killing abortionists . . ."
Just killing babies?
(I almost hate to continue this thread but the above quote cries for challenge).

 

[Snakum]

"Just killing babies?"

You're probably not gonna like this .....

I agree with you on that one. ALL life is precious beyond measure and should be respected. Both the killer on death row and the unborn child. And yes, I believe it is a child. On PBS I saw a two month old fetus sucking it's thumb in the womb. If you take that child ... you've taken human life ... period. I don't care what the feminists say. Their arguments for abortion are as illogical as your arguments for an old white-haired puppet-master in the sky.

All that said however ... I wasn't debating politics ... I was debating religion.

Minh

BTW ... when I was a kid, I always thought God looked like Rev. Billy Graham . My father, a Southern Baptist preacher (this was before I knew what a 'minister' was) used to work the Billy Graham crusades when they swung thru Raleigh. When I finally saw him in person I could just imagine God literally taking possession of Rev. Graham and speaking thru him. But then of course ... I grew up and started THINKING for myself.

 

[enigma]

Enigma ... you need to provide references. I respect you, and I will try not to make this personal, but ...

The most prolific historical writers of the time Jesus supposedly walked on the earth never mention him. The old and new testament is so full of contradictions as to be laughable when read with a critical mind. It's just silly. What you believe visavis blind faith is not provable at all. It is illogical in the extreme. Your belief in an old white-haired puppet-master in the sky is no more rational than the Roman belief in the gods of Olympus. There are so many things that are ignorant (and distasteful) about Judaism, Islam, and Christianity that I don't know where to begin.

One day human beings will be able to leave this dangerous and nonsensical need for a 'devine creator' behind and move forward to a new era of logic, reason, and love for our fellow man without regard to color or creed. No more killing abortionists, no more murder, rape and pillage in the middle east, no more airplanes into buildings, etc.

Imagine that

Rev. Thich Minh Thong
"Secular Humanist posing as a Buddhist Monk"

Snakum,

Sorry to differ, and I appologize for using your post as a springboard; but my intention is not really to prove you wrong. I only want to give believers something other than blind faith to rely on.

But since you mention it, here are a few of the ancient writers who mention Jesus.
*Cornelius Tacitus, a Roman historian and Governor, born approximatelyAD52. He wrote of "Christus, the founder of the name" in a history of Nero.
*Flavius Josephus, Jewish historian born AD37. Josephus made numerous mentions of Jesus in his histories.
*Suetonius, Roman Historian and court official under Hadrian born AD120. Suetonius wrote of Christus in Life of Claudius.

Also, *The 1974 edition of the Encyclopedia Britannica states:
"These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."

The best argument I can make is that the writers of the Gospels repeatedly claimed to be eyewitnesses. It has been proven that he gospels were written by persons who would have been alive during the time of Christ, and those persons made public statements claiming to have seen things with their own eyes. This was happpening during a time when the Romans and Jews were both making draconian attempts to erradicate the Christians. I submit that the Romans would have wasted no time in refuting written eyewitness accounts. They didn't because they knew that they couldn't. Eventually the Roman Emperor Constantine realized that he couldn't stop the Christians and decided that since he couldn't beat them he would join them. (That's another subject, but it happened) Additionally, not only did those authors say that they were eyewitnesses, they repeatedly stated that their intended readers were also eyewitnesses. All that the Romans and Jews had to in order to stop the movement in its tracks was to disprove those eyewitnesses, yet they never did.

To anyone who cares, I am conversant, but this is not one of my areas of expertice. I can't quote every name, If you wish to do further research I will be glad to point you in the direction of some good authors on the subject.

regards,
8N

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Personally, I believe Jesus Christ existed and is the son of God. However, I do have a lot of problems with the morality in the Old Testament:

1) God sending angels to massacre thousands of men, women and children simply because they were Israel's enemies.

2) In the laws of Deuteronomy, women who were menstruating were considered "unclean" and were not to be touched (hello? didn't God make them that way?) Children who cursed their father were to be put to death.
Leviticus 19:20: "And whoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid (ie slave)) betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; SHE shall be scourged; they shall not be oput to death, because she was not free."
I just cannot fathom how anyone can justify death and whipping for such trivial offenses. The only answer I can find is that morality changes with the times.

3) Genesis claims that God was "disappointed" when Adam and Eve ate from the fruit. But if He were all-knowing, wouldn't he have know this before the fact?

And as far as the bible being used as a scientific document is concerned, I seincerely hope that anyone who believes the Earth is only 6,000 years old and was created in six days is not allowed to pilot an airplane.

 

[cjh]

Snakum,

>>"The most prolific historical writers of the time Jesus supposedly walked on the earth never mention him. The old and new testament is so full of contradictions as to be laughable when read with a critical mind. It's just silly. What you believe visavis blind faith is not provable at all. It is illogical in the extreme. Your belief in an old white-haired puppet-master in the sky is no more rational than the Roman belief in the gods of Olympus. There are so many things that are ignorant (and distasteful) about Judaism, Islam, and Christianity that I don't know where to begin.

One day human beings will be able to leave this dangerous and nonsensical need for a 'devine creator' behind and move forward to a new era of logic, reason, and love for our fellow man without regard to color or creed. No more killing abortionists, no more murder, rape and pillage in the middle east, no more airplanes into buildings, etc. "<<


Outstanding post.


DarnNearaJet,

Kudos to you as well.

And this:

"And as far as the bible being used as a scientific document is concerned, I seincerely hope that anyone who believes the Earth is only 6,000 years old and was created in six days is not allowed to pilot an airplane."

gets my vote for best comment of the day! LMAO!!

Pleasant evening to all.

 

[310]

cjh and snakum need to get together, hold hands and sing "imagine" by j lennon

 

[Snakum]

Naaaaahhhh, I'm not a Beetles fan.

Minh

(Amazing how civil all this has been ... thanks. I'll try to tone it down a bit after I check my references and respond.)

 

[airbrush]

I've been too busy the last few days to jump in on this debate, so hopefully I'm not too late.

Actually, MOST of it has been civil. Burping Boy's gleeful condescension was getting a bit old.

We can continue this thread until the next millenium, and most likely not change many opinions. There are just as many books and websites out there to support the accuracy of the Bible as there are to critcize it, and although I'm sure Snakum, cjh, BB, and the others would immediately consider any supporting documentation to be "highly suspect" (so much for open mindedness), there is no less of a biased agenda behind those who seek to discredit it. The methods and assumptions of the Jim Merrits and Dennis McKinseys can also be taken to task for the presumptions they bring to their analysis, and their conclusions refuted by others.
In the last century, dozens of highly educated, highly motivated skeptics have traveled the world, searching for the one piece of incontrovertable evidence that will once and for all put an end this Bible myth. They haven't found it. I don't have all the names and references in front of me at the moment, but while some have actually become believers, even the others had to admit (grudgingly, I'm sure) that their findings either supported Biblical accounts, or were neutral in their effect.
As far as contemporary writings supporting the existence of Jesus and documenting his life, there are accounts by Flavius Josephus (as mentioned by Enigma), a Roman Jewish historian who certainly had no reason to support Christ. Other Roman historians record the unusual darkening of the daytime sky during the Crucifiction, as mentioned in the Bible and documented by modern astronomers as an event outside of natural phenomenon (sun and moon in the wrong postions). Still other writings from other sources (actually, mundane records of daily business) mention the "Messiah figure" sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate. Accounts of Tower of Babel exist in documents bearing the seal of King Nebucadnezzer of Babylon. The list goes on, and there are many good books on the subject for those interested.
In terms of science having "disproved" the Bible, that is also a popular but mistaken assumption. The fossil record contains over 100 million specimens, but is amazingly lacking an verifiable transitional forms. Statements from leading evolutionary scientists such as Richard Dawkins, Stephen Gould, even the late Carl Sagan indicate diverse differences in opinion and an almost religious dedication to the aspects of their beliefs that so far have eluded scientific support, thus requiring their own brand of "blind faith", which you have already discredited as lacking in intellectual substance.
Studies in other areas of science, from biology (mitochondrial DNA) to geology and methods of carbon dating, along with salinity tests of the oceans and mathematical probabilities of the spontaneous formation of even a single, simple cell (much less the complex and diverse organisms that we see in the world around us), have cast serious doubt on long-held assumptions of timelines and other research. Then we have the objective, intellectual model of Gould's writings, which display such an intense hatred of those who disagree with him (including many of his peers) that it makes the idea of rational, unbiased scientific study as laughable as you claim the Biblical accounts to be.
Like a defense attorney, you think the case is won not by proving the innocence of your client, but by attempting to cast just enough doubt on his guilt to supposedly discredit the prosecution, without the burden of producing evidence to fully support your case. If the universe just IS, then please, PROVE to me, with a level of documentation that would be adequate to satisfy that which you require from me, how and when the universe originated and why it exists. Document the Big Bang (from where did the matter originate, and what caused the explosion? From where did the vacuum into which it expanded come, and what may have been displaced in the process?). Can't be done.
In essence, both of our belief systems, either in a Divine Creator or a mindless, pointless accident, eventually run into a dead end, beyond which we have nothing but conjecture to offer. We usually then go with our gut, sifting the available information through that filter, building our world view, discarding that which doesn't fit (a practice not limited to just certain parties), trying to answer the question that has been with mankind since the beginning (by whichever source).
I choose to believe in the Divine origin and inspiration of Man in part because of what we are doing right now: using instruments invented by man, connected through a system devised by man, utilizing our ability to harness that which exists around us, communicating in a written language (in a forum that is based on the fact that we have invented FLYING MACHINES, or crying out loud!), across the world if necessary. Think about it; look at the sheer wonder of the entirety of human activity in a single day, in every culture, language, etc....... Art, literature, communication, transportation, music, construction; planes that fly and ships that sail and satellites that orbit the earth and allow us to talk to each other and see pictures in seconds; I can't even begin to mention it all, and most of this came about by man's imagination in just the last century alone! Now, since we "evolved" from monkeys, show me the progress made by even the most intelligent primate in the last THOUSAND YEARS?
I'm getting long, but one last point. You (to no one in particular, just in general) claim the world would be a wonderful place if we could just dispose of religious belief systems. Well, the USSR was officially an athiest state, even teaching classes in the schools denying the existence of God. Over the course of 70 plus years, and estimated 200 MILLION people were slaughtered or imprisoned for daring to disagree with the Party line, and similar events took place in other regimes, from China to Cambodia and too many others, all in the name of NO GOD. If the individual has no greater value than a rodent, those in power can decide to exterminate anyone or group of their choosing if the situation suits them, so the problem isn't solved. And THAT, friends, is the situation we Christians find as a possibility if the ideas some of you espouse become official government policy in the future, given enough time and repetition in the minds of those who do not take the time to explore the issue, and one that I would be irresponsible to not fight against. So, although religion and politics can be a distastful mix, they are hard to separate (atheism is classified as a religion), and unfortunately, the head-butting will most certainly continue.
I contend that we are, at our core, spiritual creatures, with most of us sensing the innate desire to seek beyond that which we see, the need to believe that we are more than just an accident of a mindless nature, living a pointless existence. You may find that to be a crutch for the intellectually vacant, but I believe you are in the distinct minority.

I wish you all luck in your quest.

P.S. By the way, BB, a bat is not a bird. The original Hebrew term in the passage you mentioned is "ofe", which means "flying thing" or "flyer" (gee, does that make all of us on this board OAFS?). If the translator had simply used that term, you would have no discrepancy.

Fly safe, everyone!

 

[cjh]

Airbrush,

Ummm, sorry, you are too late.

 

[airbrush]

cjh,

I'm not, if even one person reads it.....


cheers

 

[DarnNearaJet]

True. Millions of people have died in the name of communism. But many more have died in religious wars throughout the ages. If people could just keep their beliefs to themselves, the world woud be a better place.

What really worries me is bible-thumpers who insist on GOVERNMENT-run schools teaching a religious view of our origins in a SCIENCE class. What gives them the right to espouse the Christian theory of creation? What would happen if you found out your children were being taught the Buddhist theory of our origins in their science class as a valid scientific theory?

 

[cjh]

DarnNearaJet,

Just couldn't let it die, could you!

I thought about mentioning this christian back door effort to contaminate the minds of children not already bludgeoned to death intellectually via weekly trips to church, but then I thought "Postings will just take yet another ugly turn, so why bother".

 

[flywithastick]

True. Millions of people have died in the name of communism. But many more have died in religious wars throughout the ages.

Sorry, DNAJ, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot's communist utopia has killed many, many more.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

cjh -

You're right. A parent has to be cautious. kids are vulnerable to subversive pursuits, including those from the deviant homosexuals. e.g., priests, books such as "My Two Uncles", etc.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Responding to airbrush. All quotes are from airbush. I had to shorten the quotes for size limitations.

There are just as many books and websites out there to support the accuracy of the Bible as there are to critcize it, and although I'm sure Snakum, cjh, BB, and the others would immediately consider any supporting documentation to be "highly suspect" (so much for open mindedness), there is no less of a biased agenda behind those who seek to discredit it.

So what you're saying is that you are open minded and could be persuaded to be an atheist, right? Give me a break. Just because we will not make a leap of faith doesn't make us close minded.

In the last century, dozens of highly educated, highly motivated skeptics have traveled the world... but while some have actually become believers, even the others had to admit (grudgingly, I'm sure) that their findings either supported Biblical accounts, or were neutral in their effect.

1) Just a minute ago you were accusing non-believers of being close minded and now you are citing examples of non-beleivers changing their minds.. but I will let this particular contradiciton pass without further comment.
2) Lots of highly eductaed people go both ways. This really doesn't prove anything.
3) Those of us on my side of the fence (the non-believing side) would say that you (the believing side) have the burden of proof. You can't prove a negative.
4) Neutral findings that the Bible Stories may have some base in reality does not prove that there is a god any more than findings that there was once such a city as Athens proves that there was a Zeus.

...contemporary writings supporting the existence of Jesus ...accounts by Flavius Josephus... ... The list goes on, and there are many good books on the subject for those interested.

1) None of these references to Jesus proves that Jesus was a deity.
2) There are many books written by people who have been kidnapped by aliens. That doesn't make the stories real and it doesn't make them god.
3) You have an internal link problem - how do you get from some real historical reference to Jesus to Jesus being the son of god?
4) No one really disputes that Jesus may have lived. This part of your argument is a paper tiger - you are trying to frame the debate in such a way that if Jesus lived he must therefore be the son of god. Sorry, I am not buying it. Even if he lived, so what?

In terms of science having "disproved" the Bible, that is also a popular but mistaken assumption. The fossil record ....Dawkins,... Gould,... Sagan... differences in opinion...

1) If I showed you an interim species you would ask me where the interim species was between it and something else. Each species in the fossil record can be thought of as transitive. This is frankly an old argument that doesn't get you anywhere.
2) "blind faith" in science. There is a huge difference. What Dawkins, Gould, Sagan (and I, if I may be so bold to include myself with that list of names) believe will pass the "Popper test". IE, it is conceivably "falsible". It is therefore not blind faith. Your side of the fence, however, cannot pass the Popper test. Your argument is flat wrong (no personal offense intended here).

Studies in other areas of science.... Then we have the objective, intellectual model of Gould's writings, ...

1) Science continues to revise itself as our understanding of the universe grows. Your argument that science is weak because it contiues to grow and expand its knowledge is laughable. That's the whole point!
2) Your side of the fence is the one that cannot change. If that's not bias, I don't know what is.
3) Science is strengthened by disagreement between scientists. The end result is more study and finally a better understanding o the universe. I will not discuss how religion pales in comparison.
4) Science is not complete. Just because we don't know all the answers today does not disprove the approach,
5) Science is as much about the approach to learning and to knowledge, as it is about what the knowledge is. See the falibility stuff above.

Like a defense attorney, you think the case is won not by proving the innocence of your client, but by attempting to cast just enough doubt on his guilt to supposedly discredit the prosecution, without the burden of producing evidence to fully support your case.

1) Here, you've got it mostly right. We do believe that you have the burden of proof.
2) You have the burden of proof. Why am I the one who has to show the evidence? You show me god. You show me a guy walking on water or stopping the sun in the sky.
3) Again, here you are not really making an argument at all, you are trying to frame the debate in a way that keeps you from having to prove anything.

I choose to believe in the Divine .... Think about it; look at the sheer wonder of the entirety of human activity in a single day, in every culture, language, etc....... Art, literature, communication, transportation, music, construction; planes that fly and ships that sail and satellites that orbit the earth and allow us to talk to each other and see pictures in seconds; I can't even begin to mention it all, and most of this came about by man's imagination in just the last century alone!

1) I too am impressed. But I am still missing the internal link (see above), how does this prove there is a god?
2) I should also throw in here that the scientific knowledge that we have today comes in spite of Galileo's ex communication. Our understanding of the universe (in some cases) comes from people who risked religious persecution for disagreeing with church teachings. It is incomprehensible that you would say that MY SIDE has a closed mind.
3) The great things you have mentioned have been resisted at every turn by religious dogma. I've even got a quote somewhere (this is from a century ago) from a minister in the Northeatern United States that said that it was a sin to use a lighting rod! It defies the will of god, you see.

Now, since we "evolved" from monkeys, show me the progress made by even the most intelligent primate in the last THOUSAND YEARS?

Ok, if you really have read Gould then you are being disingenuous. Primates and humans split millinea ago - humans do not come from monkeys.

You (to no one in particular, just in general) claim the world would be a wonderful place if we could just dispose of religious belief systems. Well, the USSR was officially an athiest state, even teaching classes in the schools denying the existence of God. Over the course of 70 plus years, and estimated 200 MILLION people were slaughtered or imprisoned for daring to disagree with the Party line, and similar events took place in other regimes, from China to Cambodia and too many others, all in the name of NO GOD.

SIGH. Now you really are being disingenuous.
1) The communists simply substituted one dogma for another. I reject their dogma too.
2) These people were killed in the name of a political system, no atheism. You really keep running into this internal link problem.
3) But since you brought it up, how many people have been killed in the name of religion? Would you like me to give you a list? Shall I include the people God destroyed in the flood?

If the individual has no greater value than a rodent, those in power can decide to exterminate anyone or group of their choosing if the situation suits them, so the problem isn't solved. And THAT, friends, is the situation we Christians find as a possibility if the ideas some of you espouse become official government policy in the future, given enough time and repetition in the minds of those who do not take the time to explore the issue, and one that I would be irresponsible to not fight against.

Here you go trying to frame this debate in a way that you win automatically. Sorry, I am not buying it. None of us believes that a human and a rodent have equal value. This is another straw argument. You have framed the debate so that it sounds like atheists are arguing this and then you try to beat down the pseudo argument. Nice try.

So, although religion and politics can be a distastful mix, they are hard to separate (atheism is classified as a religion), and unfortunately, the head-butting will most certainly continue.

Definition of RELIGION from Meriam Webster online:
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance.
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

I will accept definition 3 or 4, but certainly not 1 or 2. And I think you meant one or 2, otherwise you would use the term CONSCIENTIOUSNESS to describe what you believe and you go farter than that.

I contend that we are, at our core, spiritual creatures, with most of us sensing the innate desire to seek beyond that which we see, the need to believe that we are more than just an accident of a mindless nature, living a pointless existence. You may find that to be a crutch for the intellectually vacant, but I believe you are in the distinct minority.

1) You are a spiritual creature. I am not.
2) I am decidedly in a minority. But that's ok.
3) I will not insult something that you hold dear by calling it a crutch (this statement is sincere).

 

[Birdstrike]

No Horse Too Dead To Beat

Airbrush, Timebuilder, 310, Enigma, TwinTails:

Give it a rest. Remember all that Pharaoah saw and endured...all those plagues, all those displays of power. He simply would not believe. Period. Lazarus returned from the dead wanting to send a warning to the living...but it didn't happen because he was told that men would not believe even if confronted with a message from beyond the grave.

You are not going to change any minds in this kind of forum. It's not a linear kind of an argument. As Jesus said, "this kind takes much fasting and prayer" This soil has just not been prepared.

Pray for those guys. It's not your responsibility to change a man's heart, that's the Holy Spirit's specialty. You spoke up and took a stand and maybe you'll be a link in the chain. Let's move on.

 

[enigma]

Re: No Horse Too Dead To Beat

Airbrush, Timebuilder, 310, Enigma, TwinTails:

Give it a rest. Remember all that Pharaoah saw and endured...all those plagues, all those displays of power. He simply would not believe. Period. Lazarus returned from the dead wanting to send a warning to the living...but it didn't happen because he was told that men would not believe even if confronted with a message from beyond the grave.

You are not going to change any minds in this kind of forum. It's not a linear kind of an argument. As Jesus said, "this kind takes much fasting and prayer" This soil has just not been prepared.

Pray for those guys. It's not your responsibility to change a man's heart, that's the Holy Spirit's specialty. You spoke up and took a stand and maybe you'll be a link in the chain. Let's move on.

Agreed, and I hope that you notice that I haven't really entered into the debate. Matter of fact, I don't know the whole debate because some of the participants have been on my ignore list for a long time. I have attempted to help bolster the faith of those who choose to believe by offering some small bits of info to show that their faith is not purely blind. I assume, as always, that the majority of readers here do not post. Another as always: I attempt to speak to the lurkers even when responding to a particular post and on one small point I disgree with you; there may be lurkers who haven't yet made up their mind. I am forgiven, but near nearly perfect enough to care if an avowed athiest or agnostic changes his mind, so I'm not trying to convince them.

regards, and thanks for your interest.
8N