Polar Air Cargo, 30 days out from possible strike.

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene, unfortunately it is difficult to define struck work in ACMI. Let's assume that SAI (just for the sake of the example) has an ACMI contract with Asiana for instance. Asiana goes on strike, SAI continues flying the contract and actually now adds a few frequencies. Asiana pilots not very happy obviously but nothing they can do because the govt doesn't give a dang. Let's say now that SAI goes on strike, Asiana still needs to move their freight, they advise SAI that their contract is cancelled because they cannot fulfill their contractual obligations and they sign a contract with let's say Tradewinds or Focus or both (again just as an example). The latter have not crossed the line, it is Asiana's freight they are carrying, not SAI's....

Seems to me a good reason to get the two merged, as long as PO and ATLAS are separate they can be played against one another by mgmt.

As far as ACMI, I look at it like this, if Atlas were to strike and then the company tried to "bid" on the ACMI using Polars certificate, that should be treated the same as struck work, same mgmt, same holding company. Legal under RLA(as per struck work rules)? Dunno, but it would probably take a judge to figure it out.

 

[heilhaavir]

You are probably correct about PO I don't know, there are certainly lots of legalities involved since they belong to the same group and same union, but again as far as any other carrier is concerned, there are no legal grounds to prevent the Asianas, BAs, KALs, SIAs from finding a carrier to move "their" freight.

 

[heilhaavir]

Therefore yes a good reason for the pilot group to get them merged, not for Cato though. LOL

 

[Craven Morhead]

Craven, As we all know here, Atlas Holdings is working you guys aginst Polar now, as the have been all along. And guess what...............your falling foir it hook-line-and sinker. Why don't you give up your grudge and help your PROFESSION? It is a different time now than it was back then.........more at stake. Let it go man!

No grudge here, just sitting back and watching the show. Last time JC did this, I was fuloughed.
I just hope that after all of this is over and the two merge that we put are money together and hire that a-hole JC to negotiate for us.

 

[bman]

I've tried to stay on the sidelines in this arguement, but I need to point out some observations.

I've heard from the folks at Polar:

Oh we may make less money than you on paper but our work rules make it so that we make as much or more money than you do on and our work rules are soooo much better!!!

I even had one new hire go on about how he was receiving 140+ credit hours for 18 days where as I was barely braking 50 in that same period. This seemed on the outside of plausability, but at face value he was making better than twice what I was for the period even at twenty dollars less per hour (please note that polar guys also don't suffer under a reduced monthly gaurantee the first year like atlas pilots do!). This is apparently system wide. Ask a ploar guy if he really feeels like he's really making less than the Atlas pilots and I've heard no one say YES. As a matter of fact they will go on and on about how infinitely better their contract is. That may be true.

They had a 99% yes vote to strike and I'm going WTF for. On one hand they are over here poor mouthing about being the lowest paid 747 drivers and on the other they brag about how much better life is at Polar than Atlas and that conversation doesn't exclude money.

Now they felt like under their current contract they should have all the same work rules and lucrative overtime and Atlas's pay. It is a false arguement that Polar was looking for parity w/ Atlas because that was never the case. None of them would fly under our contract with our "sought after hourly rates" period. The company did offer them their current contract with a 10% pay increase and this offer has not been put to the membership for a vote to date. I don't see that offer as a concession.

Not to mention the fact that Polar has ALPA street capts which Atlas does not and relative to TIS vs captiancies the advantage goes to the polar group again. I mention this because if you take a 7 year Atlas guy with a 7 year Polar guys odds are the polar guy been a capt for a few and odds are the Atlas guy isn't (lets keep the Standstead BS out of this. yet another example of Atlas pilots getting the full nelson and the father nelson)

When the subject of merger ploicy comes up Polar guys have been shouting date of hire is the only fair thing! WTF there are guys on the atlas side of the house who haven't had a command with 7+ years of longevity and polar has five year capt's and they want date of hire?! WTF? It doesn't take long to see that Polar's MEC is working "solely" for the best intrest of polar pilots. So don't give me this we should all unite and hold hands like brothers. This is not us vs mgmt. This is Polar vs mgmt.

My point is, is it required that Polar pilots recieve massive order of magnatude gains over Atlas pilots in order for them to be satisfied. Is that worth striking for. When I hear one Polar pilot come to the table and say we'll take Atlas's contract with a 10% pay increase then I maybe more inclined to believe and walk the line!

 

[rtmcfi]

My point is, is it required that Polar pilots recieve make massive order of magnatude gains over Atlas pilots in order for them to be satisfied. Is that worth striking for. When I hear one Polar pilot come to the table and say we'll take Atlas's contract with a 10% pay increase then I maybe more inclined to believe!

When your contract comes up, where would you like to bargain from? Do you want the Polar guys making less than you? How long has Polars contract been amendable?

They had a 99% yes vote to strike and I'm going WTF for. On one hand they are over here poor mouthing about being the lowest paid 747 drivers and on the other they brag about how much better life is at Polar than Atlas and that conversation doesn't exclude money.

Sound like you sorta like their contract, if it is as good as they say it is. How about Atlas pay, with Polar work rules? For BOTH groups.. If Polar stumbles, in about a year, Atlas guys fall w/ 'em.

 

[heilhaavir]

When have you been asked to walk Bman? Is there something I missed?

 

[heilhaavir]

and it was 99.23%, come on let's be precise here now

 

[bman]

gee how's about Fedex pay with UPS work rules?

The question is what is worth fighting for and what can you win?

There is no arguement that the QOL issues at Polar are better the only area Atlas's CBA exceeds Polar's CBA is the hourly rate, which doesn't nessicarily mean less money for Polar pilots because of he benefits of their CBA. Now Polar CBA with Atlas hourly rates sounds great if I was at Polar would I want to strike if less was offered? Probably not.

We haven't been asked to walk, but there are many here who woud like to make it seem as if we are bargining collectively. We aren't. Polar pilots are nego. (fairly enough) in their own self intrest live or die!

When your contract comes up, where would you like to bargain from? Do you want the Polar guys making less than you? How long has Polars contract been amendable?



Sound like you sorta like their contract, if it is as good as they say it is. How about Atlas pay, with Polar work rules? For BOTH groups.. If Polar stumbles, in about a year, Atlas guys fall w/ 'em.

 

[heilhaavir]

So what the hell you talkin about Bman? Relax and watch the show No one on the PO side is asking you to walk. Geez

 

[rtmcfi]

Well, then how about Polar pay, and Atlas work rules about a year from now?

 

[bman]

hey I meant no disrespect! This was more in response to those on this board who think Atlas's pilot group has a dog in this fight. I wish all of you luck!

Sincerely
bman

So what the hell you talkin about Bman? Relax and watch the show No one on the PO side is asking you to walk. Geez

 

[bman]

Do you work here? That was never offered to anyone nor does it being offered a year from now have anything to do with what is going on with Polar right now! So long as these pilot groups hve seperate lists and seperate CBA's each will work for its own self interests, period!

Well, then how about Polar pay, and Atlas work rules about a year from now?

 

[Craven Morhead]

I've tried to stay on the sidelines in this arguement, but I need to point out some observations.

I've heard from the folks at Polar:

Oh we may make less money than you on paper but our work rules make it so that we make as much or more money than you do on and our work rules are soooo much better!!!

I even had one new hire go on about how he was receiving 140+ credit hours for 18 days where as I was barely braking 50 in that same period. This seemed on the outside of plausability, but at face value he was making better than twice what I was for the period even at twenty dollars less per hour (please note that polar guys also don't suffer under a reduced monthly gaurantee the first year like atlas pilots do!). This is apparently system wide. Ask a ploar guy if he really feeels like he's really making less than the Atlas pilots and I've heard no one say YES. As a matter of fact they will go on and on about how infinitely better their contract is. That may be true.

They had a 99% yes vote to strike and I'm going WTF for. On one hand they are over here poor mouthing about being the lowest paid 747 drivers and on the other they brag about how much better life is at Polar than Atlas and that conversation doesn't exclude money.

Now they felt like under their current contract they should have all the same work rules and lucrative overtime and Atlas's pay. It is a false arguement that Polar was looking for parity w/ Atlas because that was never the case. None of them would fly under our contract with our "sought after hourly rates" period. The company did offer them their current contract with a 10% pay increase and this offer has not been put to the membership for a vote to date. I don't see that offer as a concession.

Not to mention the fact that Polar has ALPA street capts which Atlas does not and relative to TIS vs captiancies the advantage goes to the polar group again. I mention this because if you take a 7 year Atlas guy with a 7 year Polar guys odds are the polar guy been a capt for a few and odds are the Atlas guy isn't (lets keep the Standstead BS out of this. yet another example of Atlas pilots getting the full nelson and the father nelson)

When the subject of merger ploicy comes up Polar guys have been shouting date of hire is the only fair thing! WTF there are guys on the atlas side of the house who haven't had a command with 7+ years of longevity and polar has five year capt's and they want date of hire?! WTF? It doesn't take long to see that Polar's MEC is working "solely" for the best intrest of polar pilots. So don't give me this we should all unite and hold hands like brothers. This is not us vs mgmt. This is Polar vs mgmt.

My point is, is it required that Polar pilots recieve massive order of magnatude gains over Atlas pilots in order for them to be satisfied. Is that worth striking for. When I hear one Polar pilot come to the table and say we'll take Atlas's contract with a 10% pay increase then I maybe more inclined to believe and walk the line!

AMEN............

 

[rtmcfi]

Bman-
I do not work there. I am not trying to start a fight either. I am hoping you guys all do well. It sounds like the Polar guys screwed the Atlas guys into a contract with poor QOL. The Polar guys did what was best for themselves, and you guys appear to have paid the price. If you folks do what is best for you, Polar guys will probably get screwed. This cycle can be repeated ad infinitum. At the end of the day, you are all screwed. Alternativly, you guys can stick together, and try to move ahead. Either way, best of luck to both pilot groups.

 

[furloughfodder]

I think the reality is the Atlas guys would like to see Polar shut down or sold, so they don't have to worry about a merger of the seniority lists.

You guys are also really exaggerating how much Polar affected your last contract. Your pilot group signed the contract, no one held a gun to your head. I'm not trying to be crass, but jeez, you guys are completely blaming your current contract on the Polar pilot group. You should be blaming Cato and Erickson.

 

[ironspud]

WTF? It doesn't take long to see that Polar's MEC is working "solely" for the best intrest of polar pilots.

Uhhhhh. Is that a bad thing?

 

[bman]

no not at all, but I really believe that they have over played their hand on this one and the stance that was taken during Atlas's CBA nego. a few years ago has not been forgotten. Nor will it when you've got 7 & 8 year FO's at Atlas and they see commands being given to Polar people several years junior to them, some even off of the street. Many Polar crews have become just unbearable over the last couple of months. With some strutting around talking about how much they have made for this company and how they saved Atlas. About how much they believe they are ENTITLED to with this next CBA.

The insanity continues as Mgmt transfers A/C to Atlas Polar guys are hurling the word SCAB around, because we've been given the mandate to fly these aircraft. We must service our customers and our contract provides no Legal provision to refuse to fly these aircraft and they are calling people Scabs. All due respect, but F that!!

I wish Polar's pilot group well in their struggle to achieve gains in their CBA, but a small amount of humility about their position would go a long way.

Point of fact flying belongs to no pilot group and in the end we must service our customers or they WILL go to someone else.




[QUOTEironspud]Uhhhhh. Is that a bad thing?[/QUOTE]

 

[B747-300]

The Polar MEC lost the fight a long time ago when an arbitrator ruled that Atlas (the holding company) can move planes and flying freely between the two certificates. The unions pushing the NMB to get released from mediation played right into management's plan. Cato must laugh out loud when he hears the Polar crews talk about a strike. If they strike, their jobs will be gone forever. If they don't strike, they will be locked out on the 16th and their jobs will be gone forever.

Remember that Atlas crews have already been flying (more than two years) using the Polar call sign. The contractual legality of this was affirmed by an arbitrator. As this is already the status quo, nothing will change when Polar crews strike or are locked out. Atlas will grow, there will be no seniority integration to worry about and Atlas crews will will not have to worry about being stabbed in the back again when contract negotiations get down to the end game.

 

[Corporate Slug]

no not at all, but I really believe that they have over played their hand on this one and the stance that was taken during Atlas's CBA nego. a few years ago has not been forgotten. Nor will it when you've got 7 & 8 year FO's at Atlas and they see commands being given to Polar people several years junior to them, some even off of the street. Many Polar crews have become just unbearable over the last couple of months. With some strutting around talking about how much they have made for this company and how they saved Atlas. About how much they believe they are ENTITLED to with this next CBA.

The insanity continues as Mgmt transfers A/C to Atlas Polar guys are hurling the word SCAB around, because we've been given the mandate to fly these aircraft. We must service our customers and our contract provides no Legal provision to refuse to fly these aircraft and they are calling people Scabs. All due respect, but F that!!

I wish Polar's pilot group well in their struggle to achieve gains in their CBA, but a small amount of humility about their position would go a long way.

Point of fact flying belongs to no pilot group and in the end we must service our customers or they WILL go to someone else.

Shaking head in disbelief...........

Considering that you drank beer with many of the ones that got fired, and that you have a grand total of four months in at Atlas, you talk like you have been there 10 years! If I remember correctly what your past jobs were, when Atlas was negotiating their last contract you were a newhire F/O at a regional airline!

How is the Ducati? Hope it didn't get swamped by Katrina.