JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
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Pinnacle pilots can do better
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All wrong.
-CDO's cannot be front loaded or back loaded any more
-The on duty break for CDO's was increased from five to six hours
-Pay for a week of vacation actually increased
-Airport reserve was reduced to 9 hours
-No pilot can be taken below the contractual min days off any more. That was the single most common complaint of junior pilots
I have not seen one single factually correct piece of information in this thread. All I see is a bunch of angry at management pilots rationalizing a 'no' vote.
Okay, post some pay rates and duty rigs then.
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
Not 100% correct, if you really want to split hairs. A pilot can be DHD, operate to domicile THEN CDO and it is compliant. It can be front loaded, back loaded would have to be more creative. The language says "operate", a dhd is not operating.
In certain circumstances, a RSV can be taking below min day, so that is not 100 accurate either. Certain extensions cannot be denied anymore, if out of domicile, you are more open to extension and you have no refusal option.
Junior assignments, whoppee you can decline them, but now everyone has to take at least 6 per year. Plus any JA over 48 hours is fair game. You saved the junior pilots but threw the other 85% under the bus.
Vacations went up from 18.75 to 18.9. Wow, .15 or about 9 MINUTES more pay PER WEEK. The super senior get a whopping 36 more minutes of pay for 4 weeks of vacation. The 9 minutes more pay is worth the vacation slides?
all in all, I would agree there are some improvements, are there enough to warrant the 5 years it took? That is for the 1200+ pilots to decide.
The definitions section is specific. The limit is two legs prior to the on duty break and two legs after the on duty break - no matter where in the AC you sit.
Not correct. No pilot can be extended into a day off.
You still get home the same day
???? No one can be junior assigned more than 48 hours prior to the report time of the trip. Plus they can not junior assign into a single duty day with days off either side. Do the math. They can only tag you for an assignment immediately following a trip.
It has been four years and 3 months.
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
Vote YES and see what DW says. Dollars to donuts this will be a grievance, his position has always been DHD is "not flying"
The definitions section is specific. The limit is two legs prior to the on duty break and two legs after the on duty break - no matter where in the AC you sit.
A reserve pilot whose assignment ends on a previously scheduled day off for reasons beyond the Company's control will be entitled to extension premium credits earned on such day, plus a five (5) hour pay credit for the first day below minimum days off.
if they cannot be extended, why have the language? As I stated in could happen. The operative word is "could". Don't make the BOLD statement it cannot happen. It can, and more than likely it will be an extension, it should NOT be anything else.
true, very true. as long as it is before midnight. Define home, is that your home or the domicile? With more than 50% of the pilots being commuters, the extension language does not help them if tagged out of domicile and held out of domicile. That is the issue. Do through flying to another hub/focus city and you are fair game for an extension that cannot be refused.
I will concede to that, (reading earlier language) The current book does not compel a pilot to a JA, the new language compels you. While this does protect the junior pilot with 11 days off or less, it hurts anyone senior that is not on a 30/7 bubble or near a vacation. The only plus is it appears no one will ever be JA's into a CDO
Actually, Wake and company started section 6 six months early as allowed. We started negotiations in December 2004. Thus, it is 4 years and almost 10 months, slightly closer to 5 years, but what is a couple of months anyway
The original team, Wake, Ball, Blizzard and one other I think. Then Pimpkin, and Bruckno when Ball and Wake stepped aside on or about May 2005. The next team started in late '06 and the current team in early '07.
Since most of these issues are Section 25, are you defending Section 25 as the best of the TA? I agree, there are some improvements...
Section 25 was TA'd on March '06, more than 3 years ago and this is the best it can be??
Then simply Vote YES for the TA.
PeanuckleCRJ
Hurrrrrrrr
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Posts
- 1,684
Hello, Kool-aid man!
The "hours of service" section states that the on duty break on CDO's is "scheduled only." And I quote:
c. A CDO shall contain a scheduled break of no less than six (6)
hours. (m)
d. Except for a CDO reserve pilot, a CDO for which the pilot has
received less than 48 hours notice will contain a break of no
less than six (6) hours.
Good luck with their interpretation of that.
I was a bit off in regards to the airport reserve.... now airport reserve+home reserve cannot exceed 14 hours instead of 12. Enjoy! Not to mention having to go back on reserve after flying.
You can still be taken below your min days off...
Are you really trying to justify the "4 years and 3 months" it took to get this turd?
FutureHeavyAC
Active member
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- Dec 8, 2004
- Posts
- 39
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
The initial 50 seat rate is the average of:
Air Wisconsin
American Eagle
ASA
Comair
Express Jet
Mesa
Mesaba
PSA
Republic
Skywest
TSA
The initial 76 seat rates are the average of:
ASA
Comair
Compass
Mesaba
Republic
Skywest
44-59 seat turbojet CA:
57.38
59.68
61.96
64.01
65.94
67.93
69.98
72.10
74.33
76.62
78.83
81.37
83.76
86.24
88.25
89.98
91.68
93.29
FO:
23.11
32.15
35.06
36.83
37.84
38.69
39.47
40.05
60-76 turbojet CA:
61.27
63.10
65.73
67.70
69.39
71.52
73.72
75.91
78.57
81.31
83.78
86.48
89.02
91.77
94.52
97.07
99.55
102.09
FO:
25.73
34.48
36.81
38.33
39.30
40.26
41.25
42.03
42.06
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
43.07
44.03
44.93
45.96
Regardless, it is industry average nothing else. No COLA increases, just DOS increases between 1-3% depending on the "average"
Bonus split into 2 payments, 5 million per payment.
Bottom line, current book with 3% COLA for the last 5 years with 2-4 bucks thrown on top will give you the rates if signed
Air Wisconsin
American Eagle
ASA
Comair
Express Jet
Mesa
Mesaba
PSA
Republic
Skywest
TSA
The initial 76 seat rates are the average of:
ASA
Comair
Compass
Mesaba
Republic
Skywest
44-59 seat turbojet CA:
57.38
59.68
61.96
64.01
65.94
67.93
69.98
72.10
74.33
76.62
78.83
81.37
83.76
86.24
88.25
89.98
91.68
93.29
FO:
23.11
32.15
35.06
36.83
37.84
38.69
39.47
40.05
60-76 turbojet CA:
61.27
63.10
65.73
67.70
69.39
71.52
73.72
75.91
78.57
81.31
83.78
86.48
89.02
91.77
94.52
97.07
99.55
102.09
FO:
25.73
34.48
36.81
38.33
39.30
40.26
41.25
42.03
42.06
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
42.08
43.07
44.03
44.93
45.96
Regardless, it is industry average nothing else. No COLA increases, just DOS increases between 1-3% depending on the "average"
Bonus split into 2 payments, 5 million per payment.
Bottom line, current book with 3% COLA for the last 5 years with 2-4 bucks thrown on top will give you the rates if signed
Singlecoil
I don't reMember
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- Jul 26, 2002
- Posts
- 1,273
TNPILOT
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2002
- Posts
- 342
Crown and Coke? What are you guys like 16 or are you just females? Why waste a good liquor in a strong mixer? Time to grow up...Crown on the rocks with a splash of water.
You guys need to shoot this TA down. Remember you will not get another contract for 4-5+ years after this turd is amendable. And you won't be heading off to a major anytime soon. This is your life for the next decade...+ . You have been handed a very crappy TA. This thing should be stellar for how long you have all waited.
I'm going to go out on a limb here.....But asides from the people living in PNCL bases who wanted to get hired there, do you think most people went to PNCL for there industry leading contract? I don't expect much because I know these guys went to a company and decided to work under their prior rules.
WayBack
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,153
Remind you of someone else? Here is a hint "Hope and Change"
I can't believe the MEC is actually going to put this on the table. What's the signing bonus? How much are the senior guys making out with from their W2's?
Unfortunatly, the senior guys will win and the junior guys will get bent over again. Just remember all that ALPA Franternal Brotherhood crap they spew to you FO's.
While it becomes harder and harder to pay your bills and your QOL life deminishes...your senior captains are making out nicely with a signing bonus. Don't think for one stinkin second that those guys are actually thinking about the good for the most junior FO. they will just say "You're still paying your dues!" ....Thats about it though. You keep paying your dues, for your MEC to bend you over again and again.
After you vote NO on this TA. Vote ALPO off the property.
Most 9E pilots are at their first airline. You don't know words like CDO, highspeed, extend, Junior Man, etc. your first time around (not just talking about streamers, but guys with real prior experience in 91 or 135 operations. You have no idea how "scheduled" and legal to start - legal to finish, and extensions are going to play a more important part in QOL than low pay. Its up to the guys that should know better (senior pilots). Unfortunately it sounds like this TA was reached with an "every one for themselves" metality.
And as for the guys who live in base, that thought flying for this airline made sense, life isn't exactly cherry for them either.
buscap
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2005
- Posts
- 999
Without knowing the entire last contract and the entire current TA, I can't really say, but it does look like some improvements. That's the problem; some.
There should be more and the pay-scales are laughable considering how long this thing will stick.
The impact of over 60 guys coming back will be worse than you think. I have a buddy at UPS who has really been bent over by that one.
The thing is this turd will be in place just at the time when things will get better, leaving the Pinnacle pilots way behind.
I say, hold out and get something better. You don't need to fall on a self-killing sword like Comair did. Just look at what we did. Don't fly 'broke' airplanes. That really is all it takes. You will have the TA you deserve with just a little more effort and patience.
And then the rest of us will have a better leg to stand on when our time is up. Yes, it's that simple. Rising tides and all the boats ...blah blah blah...but trust me, in the end you will be glad you held out for better.
The Pinnacle pilot group is so darn junior, your costs will still be low by industry standards with a much better contract than this one. Pinnacle can afford to do better by you guys and still be extremely competitive. They know it, and you guys know it, so step up and do yourselves right.
There should be more and the pay-scales are laughable considering how long this thing will stick.
The impact of over 60 guys coming back will be worse than you think. I have a buddy at UPS who has really been bent over by that one.
The thing is this turd will be in place just at the time when things will get better, leaving the Pinnacle pilots way behind.
I say, hold out and get something better. You don't need to fall on a self-killing sword like Comair did. Just look at what we did. Don't fly 'broke' airplanes. That really is all it takes. You will have the TA you deserve with just a little more effort and patience.
And then the rest of us will have a better leg to stand on when our time is up. Yes, it's that simple. Rising tides and all the boats ...blah blah blah...but trust me, in the end you will be glad you held out for better.
The Pinnacle pilot group is so darn junior, your costs will still be low by industry standards with a much better contract than this one. Pinnacle can afford to do better by you guys and still be extremely competitive. They know it, and you guys know it, so step up and do yourselves right.
Are you f&^%ing serious?!
WayBack
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,153
That's your beautiful ALPO at work.
Bending over the junior guy.
PeanuckleCRJ
Hurrrrrrrr
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Posts
- 1,684
No joke. The senior lifers really threw the rest of the pilot group under the bus with this one.
Every section that I see I am more and more amazed. When you have to look hard for improvements to speculate on why I would vote yes if I were still there, it's bad.
Typically with contracts I have to look for easter eggs to figure out why I would vote no. This one is just the opposite...
SBD
Well-known member
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- Feb 19, 2006
- Posts
- 379
Crown and Coke? What are you guys like 16 or are you just females? Why waste a good liquor in a strong mixer? Time to grow up...Crown on the rocks with a splash of water.
Anybody who pours Coke/cola into any Whiskey/Scotch/Bourbon needs to be beaten to a bloody pulp. Add a light Beer while you destroy your drink.
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
right from section 22, agreed upon on 9/27/06... I can only guess this was the GT clause, he would be the one guy I think most would not have too much of an issue with.
Should the FAA extend or otherwise revise the federally regulated maximum age limit, the Company may elect to reinstate a pilot who has retired from the Company due to reaching the previously established federal maximum age limit. Such pilot will be reinstated to his former relative position on the seniority list.
PCL. I am surprised, you did not bolt yet when this was TA'd. You had no idea?
Should the FAA extend or otherwise revise the federally regulated maximum age limit, the Company may elect to reinstate a pilot who has retired from the Company due to reaching the previously established federal maximum age limit. Such pilot will be reinstated to his former relative position on the seniority list.
PCL. I am surprised, you did not bolt yet when this was TA'd. You had no idea?
redflyer65
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
I'm amazed that the MEC sent this to the pilot group. I really don't see the improvement over a contract from 1999.
No 401k bump?
An average payscale scheme with no published scale?
No COLA beyond the ammendable date?
A low signing bonus that is paid out over two payments?
I would say that PNCL management has made out pretty well. The bottom line if this passes...
PNCL has skipped one complete contract cycle and are setting themselves up to skip another!
RF
No 401k bump?
An average payscale scheme with no published scale?
No COLA beyond the ammendable date?
A low signing bonus that is paid out over two payments?
I would say that PNCL management has made out pretty well. The bottom line if this passes...
PNCL has skipped one complete contract cycle and are setting themselves up to skip another!
RF
Wow, your a real F@#k'n piece of work if you are defending this POS. The reserve rules are definitively worse. You can't spin that any other way. They are worse. Why? How did that happen?
The stuff you posted above is not completely accurate, there is no miminum break for CDO's any more, and Ready Reserve was already 9 hours. Still no pay credit for being awarded 5-21 airport reserves per month. How can reserve pilots still get only 10 days off per month? Is there even an RJ operator out there besides Trans States that has 10 off?
Are 401K match for the first 6 or so years is 25% of the first 5%! That is 1.25% match! Industry worst. Almost
No cost of living increases after the amendable date. Again. Someone else pointed out that by the end of this new contract and the time it takes to negotiate its replacement, the pinnacle pilots will have been under a pay freeze 10 out of 20 years............
This is a joke, and the fact that you even bother to defend it says EVERYTHING about you.
Just to add as well, I also believe there was influence here from some very senior ATL (formerly MEM) pilots.
There more you learn about this TA, the worse it gets. Not kidding.
For some reason I seem to be missing that TA'd section in my archives. I'm not sure if WG just never sent it to me, or whether I somehow lost it in the past few years, but I don't have it in my old PCL NC files. In any case, I wasn't aware that we had TA'd that language, which is a perfect example of how screwed up the negotiating process always was at PCL. The MEC was kept in the dark 99% of the time, and only the NC and MEC Chairman knew what was really going on. Even when TA'd sections were sent to us, we didn't get briefings on anything. It was a mess.
redflyer65
Well-known member
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- 4,456
JoeMerchant
ASA pilot
- Joined
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- Posts
- 6,353
This is too rich....The KING of ALPA cheerleaders claims he didn't know this was TA'd under his watch...and he blames us ALPA sceptics on our problems...You couldn't make this stuff up if you tried....
PCL_128...YOU are what is wrong with ALPA and this industry....Not the line pilots who pay your full time ALPA leave...
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