Pinnacle, Mesaba, Colgan Reallignment

[higney85]

You really need to direct your anger towards 9e managment for buying XJ, we didn't want to be purchased any more then you wanted to own us.

Are you saying that 9E bought XJ? I say this not as a knock, but until now the argument was always that PNCL Corp bought XJ. When Colgan was purchased the same argument came up, and the arbitrator agreed, but didn't force a "remedy" since we weren't "competing carriers". The view of "who bought what" has always been smoke and mirrors. XJ guys know how this worked with MAIR in their shamruptcy. In the end, I do find it ironic that the 9E guys had the brakes applied in progression and now are being jolted when all of these mergers stemmed from 9E's NWA payment of $220ishM that financed the birth of "Corp Holdings" which bought Colgan and financed/bought many Q's. Colgan didn't even turn profitable until a few months prior to Corp's XJ purchase. We may be splitting hairs, but those hairs are the few left on the heads of 9E pilots. It can be argued in many ways, depending on viewpoint, but we can't change where we are. I still cannot figure out why the 9E merger committee did not contest the quotas after the award. Having those adjusted for the actual CA seats on the list could have made this far more palatable for 9E, while still allowing significant protections and advancement for all of us here as PNCL pilots.

 

[CptMurf]

Are you saying that 9E bought XJ? I say this not as a knock, but until now the argument was always that PNCL Corp bought XJ. When Colgan was purchased the same argument came up, and the arbitrator agreed, but didn't force a "remedy" since we weren't "competing carriers". The view of "who bought what" has always been smoke and mirrors. XJ guys know how this worked with MAIR in their shamruptcy. In the end, I do find it ironic that the 9E guys had the brakes applied in progression and now are being jolted when all of these mergers stemmed from 9E's NWA payment of $220ishM that financed the birth of "Corp Holdings" which bought Colgan and financed/bought many Q's. Colgan didn't even turn profitable until a few months prior to Corp's XJ purchase. We may be splitting hairs, but those hairs are the few left on the heads of 9E pilots. It can be argued in many ways, depending on viewpoint, but we can't change where we are. I still cannot figure out why the 9E merger committee did not contest the quotas after the award. Having those adjusted for the actual CA seats on the list could have made this far more palatable for 9E, while still allowing significant protections and advancement for all of us here as PNCL pilots.

PNCL Corp bought Mesaba, as well as Colgan. Those facts should never be questioned. We've all been put on this roller coaster by them, no one else. XJ did not ask to be bought or sold by NWA, DAL, or PNCL. 9L did not asked to be bought by PNCL Corp. And 9E did not ask to compete with other airlines under their own corporate umbrella, nor did they have the scope to stop it, such as BigSky/MAIR. We have all been thrust into this situation together. It would have been better to chart our own future, by negotiating our own integration. But there were some that did not want that responsibility, and would rather it go to arbitration. All the groups have lost in integration, paid for by individuals on each list, but not equally across those lists. It will sort out over time. But for now, it is what it is. Don't take it out on your fellow pilots.

 

[Flyer1015]

I still cannot figure out why the 9E merger committee did not contest the quotas after the award. Having those adjusted for the actual CA seats on the list could have made this far more palatable for 9E

Busy flying the line, that's usually what the union email updates say!

 

[Flyer1015]

Okay, I'll bite....

I guess they will displace to wherever their seniority can hold. And those most junior will end up displaced. It's called seniority, the whole industry is set up on it.

Seniority went quite out of order on this Bloch's list with his groups! There are 2008 DOH Colgan pilots who are currently at 14xx on the seniority list. These people will take jet Captain positions far before any 2005, 2006, or 2007 Pinnacle FO. How's that for an equitable merger? The displacements are hurting Pinnacle most because our staffing ratios were low, and our Captain positions are protected to very low numbers. We are far above our CRJ quotas, so all of our junior Captains are downgrade material. This is not their fault, it is not my fault. Bloch should have accounted for this in his award. He thought he was being smart and covering all bases. But this has come to hurt us most. Now, as flying is cut, you will have Mesaba and Saab pilots continue taking RJ Captain spots that are in Pinnacle bases, while downgrading our pilots. And some of these Colgan pilots, soon, will be 2007 and 2008 guys getting jets over Pinnacle guys from 2005-2007.

"Seniority" is fair when it's DOH and accounting for longevity. Anything else throws senioity out the window.

Not to mention, quotas and fences also throw seniority out the window, because then seniority doesn't matter, it's the quota and the fence that counts. That is why Pinnacle Captains are being downgraded and given the middle finger "**** you" while Colgan pilots are getting upgraded on the Saabs that are 500+ numbers junior to our displaced Captains.

How's that fair? Fine, displace us and take our Captain spots, but at least let us have some dibs on the Saab Captain seats in exchange. Everyone "gained" in this merger. Mesaba can bid Saabs, Qs, and jets. Colgan can bid all aircraft, props to jets. But Pinnacle can ONLY bid Qs and jets? Why not the Saab? Our displacements would hurt less if our guys could at least take the left seat of a Colgan Saab.

But we are denied even that! There's nothing fair in any of this. On the seniority list, you will have Mesaba and Colgan pilots being awarded Captain positions, you will see our guys continue being downgraded and displaced, and Saab Captain positions will go super-junior to the all the junior Colgan guys.

I can't think of another "f*** you" to Pinnacle, short of just stapling us to the bottom of the combined Mesaba/Colgan list.

 

[RJLoser]

Yeah. You were pretty far from the facts murph.

 

[Flyer1015]

Two things have absolutely killed the movement for any Pinnacle pilot (CA or FO) from 2005-2008.

1. The quota numbers. The Pinnacle numbers were taken when our staffing was very low, and when Mesaba was overstaffed and had furloughs. Colgan was staffed better than us at the time. Regardless, the intent of the quotas was to protect the current Captains in their seats. Even before the JCBA was signed, we started to hire and upgrade like crazy. Despite what Mesaba guys say, that was not a result of the JCBA. The JCBA wasn't signed in until Feb 18 of this year. Some of our hiring and upgrading started even before the Mesaba purchase announcement. We hired and ugpraded through the year and into this year. The quota should protect current Captains, and not just the number of Captains we had in June 2010. To do so unfairly punishes out Captains.

2. The Colgan Saab fence. Our union email updates claimed that the conditions and restrictions were quotas, not fences. They were wrong. The Colgan Saab was a fence. Pinnacle is fenced for five years from being able to be awarded Saab Captain. These positions are now going to pilots who are 23xx on the seniority list. Our guys are being downgraded in the 17xx. How can ANYONE with a straight-face say that this situation is fair?

17xx is downgrade from CA back to FO, while some other guy 23xx gets to upgrade from FO to CA.

Seniority? Laughable concept at the new Pinnacle. Bloch screwed us big time. If not on the quotas, then certainly on the Colgan fence.

The quota I can understand, it was a snapshot in time of June 2010, and Bloch used it. Ok, although not a good reason, at least he had a reason.

But what about the Saab fence? To restrict a group from bidding the Saab IS A PUNISHMENT. What is Bloch punishing us for? EVERY other aircraft was protected by quotas. As long as a group held a minimum of "x" positions on that plane, the other two groups could bid and be awarded in seniority order.

But NOT the Saab. Pinnacle is intentionally held off from it. There is no logical reason why. Why would Bloch do that?

 

[Flyer1015]

But what about the Saab fence? To restrict a group from bidding the Saab IS A PUNISHMENT. What is Bloch punishing us for? EVERY other aircraft was protected by quotas. As long as a group held a minimum of "x" positions on that plane, the other two groups could bid and be awarded in seniority order.

But NOT the Saab. Pinnacle is intentionally held off from it. There is no logical reason why. Why would Bloch do that?

Someone claimed that's the case because Pinnacle didn't bring any Saabs into the merger. True, but Colgan didn't bring any jets into the merger, but they are not fenced off. As long as Mesaba and Pinnacle quotas are met, the Colgan pilots can get jet Captain positions. So why couldn't the same be the case for Pinnacle pilots on Colgan Saabs? The fence has no operational reason for it. As long as Colgan meets its own quota on the Saab fleet, Mesaba can bid for it, but not Pinnacle.

 

[RJLoser]

There has been no answer from Bloch yet as to the Saab issue. Spoke to a 9E rep. He said they are awaiting clarification from Bloch on whether a PCL pilot can bid
Saab CA.

 

[Flyer1015]

There has been no answer from Bloch yet as to the Saab issue. Spoke to a 9E rep. He said they are awaiting clarification from Bloch on whether a PCL pilot can bid
Saab CA.

Actually, tha'ts not true. Look at the PCL ALPA board. Bloch hasn't been directly approached. Yet, anyway.

 

[RJLoser]

Actually, tha'ts not true. Look at the PCL ALPA board. Bloch hasn't been directly approached. Yet, anyway.

Can't find anything from a rep stating this. Just the one guy always on there who is not a rep. Guess we will know the answer to this when they talk to Bloch as I was told they are going to be doing.

 

[Yodafly]

Maybe it was done because the Saab Captains where put below Q and 200 captains in the award.

 

[WTF-Over]

Are you saying that 9E bought XJ? I say this not as a knock, but until now the argument was always that PNCL Corp bought XJ. When Colgan was purchased the same argument came up, and the arbitrator agreed, but didn't force a "remedy" since we weren't "competing carriers". The view of "who bought what" has always been smoke and mirrors. XJ guys know how this worked with MAIR in their shamruptcy. In the end, I do find it ironic that the 9E guys had the brakes applied in progression and now are being jolted when all of these mergers stemmed from 9E's NWA payment of $220ishM that financed the birth of "Corp Holdings" which bought Colgan and financed/bought many Q's. Colgan didn't even turn profitable until a few months prior to Corp's XJ purchase. We may be splitting hairs, but those hairs are the few left on the heads of 9E pilots. It can be argued in many ways, depending on viewpoint, but we can't change where we are. I still cannot figure out why the 9E merger committee did not contest the quotas after the award. Having those adjusted for the actual CA seats on the list could have made this far more palatable for 9E, while still allowing significant protections and advancement for all of us here as PNCL pilots.

I meant 9E corp but there is little difference, at least until the courts get involved.

 

[1.3XVso]

I blame 9E union for milking all the union buy-outs and flight pay.

 

[Flyer1015]

Can't find anything from a rep stating this. Just the one guy always on there who is not a rep. Guess we will know the answer to this when they talk to Bloch as I was told they are going to be doing.

Reps don't mean much in this situation. There is a response from a PCL merger committee member on the PCL ALPA forum, in terms of what's next.

 

[altimaklr]

Who cares about saab upgrades. By the time a 9E guy goes thru 4-5 months of training, the planes will be gone. Just hangout and relax while XJ Saab captains take your upgrade. Pipe dreams about Q400 can go away too, unless you want to be the most senior FO flying 6 legs to Mc Allen and never upgrade.