Pinnacle Continues Hiring and Lowering Standards

[FN FAL]

]I always try to encourage my FOs to make a decision while being the Flying and Non Flying Pilot. I then ask them to offer an explanation as to why they chose that decision. Then we discuss what I think and take the best answer.

If you could afford a laptop, you would be able to flip it open and play solitaire, leaving the FO alone in peace and quiet so's he/she could read their newspaper or whatever it is that kids read today.

 

[TedCFII]

If you could afford a laptop, you would be able to flip it open and play solitaire, leaving the FO alone in peace and quiet so's he/she could read their newspaper or whatever it is that kids read today.

I said I "try to encourage" them. If they are sitting on their hands while listening to their Ipods, fine, I'll read my USAToday, Book, Magazine or fire up my laptop. Then I don't have to listen to them whining :bawling:about how they should be in the leftseat!

 

[flyboyike]

Dumb Pilot, that washout rate sounds incredibly high. Those are the kind of numbers that make me wonder whether PCL should improve their training department, or hire more qualified pilots, or both.

Actually, that washout looks similar to some long-haul carriers, Cathay Pacific, for example.

 

[redflyer65]

Just a word on the training department....It has made some huge improvements over the past year and is getting better everyday.

Increased sim hours. Ground school taught by actual RJ senior captains. Re-current ground completely re-vamped. New manuals throughout. Great OE pilots for line orientations and line checks. Cat 2 training.

I would say that there is still room for improvement, but these are some big gains for this company. And I would say that with the current manager of training these trends will probably continue. If you make it through the interview and study hard all the way through training, you will make it no problem. You will also find people willing to give you a hand but all you have to do is ask. Don't just sit on your hands and wonder about something, ask the question.

 

[flyboyike]

Don't just sit on your hands and wonder about something, ask the question.

Isn't it amazing how many people lack the common sense to do just that?

 

[100LL... Again!]

What should we do to get prepared for the CRJ. I am an instructor and just had a friend I worked with get on at Pinnacle and he said no amount of time instructing would prrepare you for FO training, other than instrument knowledge.

Ummm, yes.

That would be the most important skill you can take to airline training.
If you rock at instruments, very few airplanes will be intimidating during training.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Dumb Pilot, that washout rate sounds incredibly high. Those are the kind of numbers that make me wonder whether PCL should improve their training department, or hire more qualified pilots, or both.

I definitely agree that things are getting better in terms of the training department, finally after us (Trainers) yelling to the top of our lungs that things should be changed they finally hire a true Vice President of Operations (Not the knuckle head reject from eagle that we had before) and he brought people that he trusted (All Ex FDX, Check airmen) and they have cleaned house quite a bit. We finally moved from professional instructors and moved towards line captains teaching. Changed the culture of the same VOR DME to rwy 27 in MEM. And we are including challenging airports during training and LOFT's DCA, JFK, DEN ect. They are listening to our recommendations and following them instead of jumping from instructor to instructor until someone told them what they wanted to hear (Usually the cheapest solution) Now if I recommend some more sim training for somebody that I feel is week in one area during OE. That person will get the extra sim time or additional ground instruction time or whatever we feel that might help. Hell, sometimes I get the individuals and bring them to my house on my time to bring them up to speed if I have to. And most of the Checks go the extra mile doing this kind of stuff all the time.
As to hiring better qualified individuals, this is out of our hands in training because is a matter of economics. I would love to get my hands on some of those MSA folks that are getting furloughed but who is going to come here to start from the bottom making Mcwaiges
when they can get a corporate or a flexjet type of job? The ideal situation would be to get better qualified individuals, that would certainly make my life a little easier. But the money is just not there.
The wash out rate is relatively high for two main factors. Our standards have gone up and the experience level of the folks that are applying is low.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Isn't it amazing how many people lack the common sense to do just that?

Why do they call it "Common Sense" if it is so rare is my question? Hey FlyboyIke, did you started ground already? I want to get my hands on you boy!

 

[flyboyike]

Why do they call it "Common Sense" if it is so rare is my question? Hey FlyboyIke, did you started ground already? I want to get my hands on you boy!

Check your PMs. And, uh, I would be careful about "getting your hands on me"thing. Some people might misunderstand...hehe-hehe.

 

[DoinTime]

We at PCL are training low time folks but I can guarantee that we are not giving positions away. the washout rate during the whole process, from Interview (About 80-85% washout) To ground (About a third washout) sim (About half) to OE (round 20% washout) is very intense and fast paced. Now having said that YOU CAN MAKE IT. And we will put our best efforts into training you to be a proficient F/O but at the end depends on you! and your will to succeed.

Are you saying that on average PCL line qualifies about four new hire pilots for every 100 interviewed? I got to wave the bull sh*t flag here. How about we get some non-embelished numbers next time.

 

[redflyer65]

Thanks for the post DP, I have heard that the problems lately have come from the OE area rather than the sim check, but that could be from the upgrades and not the new hires.

I'm really glad to see the drastically needed improvements. It's about time that we have some people that know how to run a training department and make it work. I can tell you from a line prospective that it's much better.

RF

 

[pookie]

I have been to a skywest and a pinnacle interview and countless others but from my experiences, skywest is so much tougher than pinnacle. The average pilot is also much different at skywest, most are educated from prior experiences while the pinnacle guys seem mostly recent college grads and interns.

 

[jetfo]

No not at all. I think about 3500 hours is a minimum for the right seat of any 121 operation. With about 1500 to 2000 hours multi. Turbine would be a good thing. But not required in my book.

That's what it used to be, but now realistically an ATP should be required to fly for a 121 carrier. And, that is not unreasonable and would uphold the standards in the industry.

Jumpseated on a Mesa CRJ 900 the other day, the FO was doing IOE. As it turns out, he was from the Mesa Pilot Developement Program with a little over 250 hours TT flying a 86-90 seat RJ, and I use the term RJ with reluctance. He had trouble just running the radios and the captain was essentially flying single pilot.

We all need to start somewhere and need to learn, but I don't think the first job coming out of flight school should be flying for a 121 carrier in a CRJ900. I know some foreign airlines are doing something along those lines, but their selection criteria are extremenly high and they have an extensive in house training program. And, even there I still think it is not enough. There is no substitute for experience.

 

[mynameisjim]

That's what it used to be, but now realistically an ATP should be required to fly for a 121 carrier. .

That's what it used to be? No.

Talk to some retired guys who will tell you that showing up with a pulse is what it used to be. Come with a commercial single and we'll give you your multi in Super Connie class.

I think the real problem is that regional jets used to be flown by high time guys in the late 90's, so the jet training was geared for that. That time is gone, but the training hasn't changed yet.

 

[SEVEN]

The average pilot is also much different at skywest, most are educated from prior experiences while the pinnacle guys seem mostly recent college grads and interns.

Or still in high school for that matter.

 

[Smarta$$]

Or still in high school for that matter.

Hey Seven, We get it. You work/worked for mesaba and dont like pinnacle. Are you done yet?

 

[SEVEN]

Hey Seven, We get it. You work/worked for mesaba and dont like pinnacle. Are you done yet?

Not yet. When "airlines" like 9E wise up and start hiring qualified applicants I'll be done. But until then, the truth must be told. Thanks for your concern though.

 

[honeycomb]

Un-Precedent-ed..

That's what it used to be? No.

Talk to some retired guys who will tell you that showing up with a pulse is what it used to be. Come with a commercial single and we'll give you your multi in Super Connie class.

I think the real problem is that regional jets used to be flown by high time guys in the late 90's, so the jet training was geared for that. That time is gone, but the training hasn't changed yet.

Okay some truth to this...but the rest of the story...

There was a time many years ago that airlines hired people with NO pilot experience and trained them thereselves. (It may come to that agian......hold it they are but you are paying for it! And yes if you go through one of these training schools to get your job placement (you paid for your job), stop lying to yourselves.)

Yes, some old timers (that have just retired recently) got hired with a pulse and 100 multi and 1200 ish hours tt years ago. You also would be on the Panel for a few years (watching and playing almost pilot / FE) then FO in a three person a/c. Again minimun responibilities. Then Captain. Years down the road after a vetting process. Back then if you could not upgrade then you got fired.

Again, not the norm...right? Of course...it changed again very quickly. The Hiring Stops and when the airlines go back to hiring, the pool of pilots is far more experienced. Up go the standards of the interview-iessss.

Again, Back to the modern times....the mid 90's after a hiring stoppage....the airlines started hiring again. The pilot pool again was high time. The pilots who could not get hired at these places went to the PAY FOR TRAINING companies (ie COMAIR and the such). In 1996 I went to American Eagle. The AVERAGE COMPETITIVE pilot time was 6000 hours tt (and yes the AE training program is/was written around a 6000 hour pilot). I had almost 5000 tt at the time. ALL multi. and >85% turbine. I was competive with exception of tt. The average upgrade time (after the hiring started again) at AE was 12 years in a turbo-prop at the time. So, yes we got high time RJ captains when we got RJ's. And, yes the training program was written for HIGH TT pilots (both Capt./and FO).

Seasoning is seasoning in the airline industry. This current time frame is UN-Precedent-ed in the history of American Airline Industry History.

A great opportunity for sure. But at wages of unskilled labor due to unskilled labor usage. And it is our fault that it is going on. We love to fly. They know it. You want to fly our shinny machine young man...Yes Sir...well you have to Pay Your Dues....at this rate you'll be paying your dues for the rest of your lives.

If you stopped paying for your job at these schools to feed the regional airlines a couple of things would happen:(ie GulfStream International types of operations.)

1. Like the rest of the world...Airlines would test youths for aptitude for aviation and pay for ALL of their training to become Airline Pilots.
2. It would stop the growth of the regionals and return flying to the main lines.
3. It would be on the merits of your abilities (skills NOT the ability to pay for) that you would get hired.
4. A more/better training program of young pilots being placed into 121 operations. (Just like the rest of the world that has such programs.)

BTW IF this does not apply to you don't take it personally. Thanks

 

[JohnnyP]

....

That's what it used to be? No.

Talk to some retired guys who will tell you that showing up with a pulse is what it used to be. Come with a commercial single and we'll give you your multi in Super Connie class.

My next door neighboor got his multi-engine ticket in a DC-9 for christ sakes. Yes, a DC-9. He started flying fresh out of college in a DC-6, flying around living breathing people, then shortly after got on the DC-9, still a "punk" to some of yalls standards. He just recently retired from a legacy. Youd trust him, wouldnt you? These retired guys you are talking about were flying these large aircraft with around zero experience. The airplanes havent gotten less reliable and have gotten easier to fly. But theyve all got gray hair now so youd never guess they were once inexperienced.

Ive said this in other post's and ill say it again, turbines are reliable, these planes aren't falling out of the sky on a daily basis because of FO's, and captains aren't becoming incapacitated in record numbers and the FO having to "rescue the day" on an approach to min's in the mountains. They will learn, just like you did.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If you stopped paying for your job at these schools to feed the regional airlines a couple of things would happen:(ie GulfStream International types of operations.)

1. Like the rest of the world...Airlines would test youths for aptitude for aviation and pay for ALL of their training to become Airline Pilots.
2. It would stop the growth of the regionals and return flying to the main lines.
3. It would be on the merits of your abilities (skills NOT the ability to pay for) that you would get hired.
4. A more/better training program of young pilots being placed into 121 operations. (Just like the rest of the world that has such programs.)

Where did you come up with this? Can you source it? Your number 2 and 3 are kind of funny actually.

Not sure if you have the cause and effect background and education to back this up. This sounds like emotional opinion.

If pilots would stop getting college degree's the rest of us would not have to spend four years of time and money. We could go straight to flying and have four more years of income!

Quit paying for and attending college! Pilots don't need it to fly professionally!

 

[honeycomb]

Nobody needs College to Fly an Airplane....

From Foreign Airlines. This is/was what is/was done. They test applicants early (high school/junior high) for aptitude. They Design a heavy math and science high school and college program geared toward aviation candidates. They teach them to fly here (mostly) in the USA. Then back to specialized training for the airline (due to the tt issue) and the a/c to be flown.

Then they have limits on when and how they get to fly the a/c. Like for example from 3000 feet (on the way up) and down to 10000 feet (or the approach/terminal area) until a certain tt and time in type. Then they may change to another a/c and with fewer limits on when they can fly. Most of the time the second a/c flown is flown from t/o to landing with limits and exceptions.

The airline pays for the education and flight training. Now this was from years ago. The rest of the World has a terrible aviation system. Therefore, they have fewer jobs. A premium is placed on overall qualifications well before they stepped day one into an a/c mind you.

Hey these are personal observations that I have.

I don't believe for a moment that Airline Mgmt. does not want the destruction of the Main Line Contracts and lifestyle (ie retirement/and pay/etc.). But, the overall impact of pilots paying for all of their training is a mouth watering issue for Mgmt. And, they love it.

As for College. Dude we both know that a 4 year degree is not required to do the job of airline pilot. Hence, I did not mention it. Having said that...if others have it...then airlines will use it to pre-select pilots as long as they have it.

A lot of WWII pilots did not have a college degree. Try Bob Hoover and Chuck Yeager for two examples.

Do you think they are chumps? Do you think with a degree you (anyone with a degree) would be a better pilot? I think not. I have flown with a lot of really professional pilots with ZERO college. And, I would take them over ANY Engineering Degreed pilot period.

Airlines have trained pilots from the ground up in years past. And, they went to Main Line. But, we live in a new age now.

Hey nobody is perfect. Including me...yep...I have been wrong before and I'll probably be wrong again in the near future.

Oh, for you engineer's....I am one too. Thank goodness that I started flying when I was 6. And, before I was told I knew it all.

Peace

 

[flyboyike]

Question for everyone: could it be that the reason management doesn't respect us is that we don't respect each other? I mean, I though it was supposed to be us against them. But it seems to me it's a lot more like us against us. Why do we feel the need to belittle each other all the time? Why is it necessary to bash this pilot group or that pilot group? Can't you see that all we have is each other? Until we realize that, management will bulldoze us to the ground every time.

 

[honeycomb]

Yep....why can't we all just get along?

The only way that we could get together that would scare mgmt is if WE ALL negotiate ONE CONTRACT for all US Airline pilots.

And, that was from a former UPS Mgmt Professional Negotiator who became a Pilot at a regional (when he was offered a pilot job at UPS, I thought how smart can the guy be to turn down UPS...but he had his reasons) that was bought by AE years ago.

He said that is the only way that mgmt would do anything we wanted.

He is a nice guy...I had a problem believe-ing he was former mgmt.

He had a heart ya'know!

 

[CX880]

Hey dudes and dudettes, where does it OFFICIALLY say 500 hours? It still says 1000 on their site.

 

[bigbenno]

So 9E is now 500 TT... BIG WHOOP!!!
Express Jet's is 600TT.... I know guys who got in at Eagle with 500TT.

 

[OPECJet]

With that BS written test during the interview, why would any self respecting mid to higher time applicant subject himself to that misery for a low paying PCL job?

I just don't need to know what the shoe size is of the guy who designed the valve stem of the left main gear to fly get through training.

 

[Smarta$$]

Not yet. When "airlines" like 9E wise up and start hiring qualified applicants I'll be done. But until then, the truth must be told. Thanks for your concern though.

Then you need to include Mesa, Trans States, Expressjet, Wisconsin, Eagle and ASA just to name some airlines that will hire with 500 or less in many cases. Just to be fair you can't pick on just Pinnacle. Had Mesaba actually started delivery in full force for there CRJ's, you cant say for certainty that they would not have to lower there mins or develop a bridge program to support there needs for pilots.

Also, If the bastard redtail is successful in ruining the wages at your airline(which I truly hope they are not), then Mesaba may need to reduce there mins just to get pilots to come to class to support the growth that would follow.

I hope if that happens that you come back and assault Mesaba in the same way.

 

[Jpilot23]

If pilots would stop getting college degree's the rest of us would not have to spend four years of time and money. We could go straight to flying and have four more years of income!

Quit paying for and attending college! Pilots don't need it to fly professionally!

CAN I GET AN AMEN BROTHER!?!?!?

 

[Smarta$$]

I do agree that the minimums are too low for all the airlines I mentioned. I just don't agree with only picking on one of them. The standard 1000 and 100 should be the minimum qualifications.

Low timers argue that they get better training at these bridge programs. Maybe there is some truth to that, but it is NOT a guarantee. you should still have to have the minimum hours. If you go to these program schools and then also get your time on top of that(1000-100), you would just be that much better. I know their are people in classes at regionals that have less then 400 hours and dont even have the CFI much less a II or MEI.

So they dont have the advanced CFI ratings or even a CFI, and they dont have the hours, many have had NO flying job ever outside of college! So what do they have other than a check book and 12-18 months of time invested.

It is no wonder that they dont have to pay Sh!t to FO's

If you want to pay for those supposed fantastic programs that turn out super pilots, then go ahead. But get your advanced ratings and go teach your trade for 6 mos or a year. That should be the requirements of the job.

 

[ricecake]

I don't agree that the problem with our pay is due to bridge programs. There are simply not enough guys to make that big of a difference. Really its management and the guys who work at outfits like Gojets that is the source of that problem.