Pinnacle Continues Hiring and Lowering Standards

[YourPilotFriend]

I'm no expert on insurance (and I'm probably about to prove it), but why do an airline's insurance carriers continue to allow the lowering of the experience requirement (which is all TT is a measure of, really, and not necessarily a good one, at that) for the SIC?

It seems like insurance companies would use even the perception of additional risk to hike rates (even if there's statistically little actual evidence of additional risk). Has there been a huge increase in insurance premiums during the last few years with lower and lower time FOs flying bigger and bigger a/c? Or are the insurance companies taking a wait and see attitude about how low time the FOs can be before (if at all) they become causal in losses.

I believe if someone was enforcing at least 135 PIC mins on 121 SICs, whether it was the Feds (which probably won't happen) or the insurance companies (which might happen), we would see less continuing downward pressure on pay and benefits.

And if you think I'm bashing Pinnacle, save your breath. I'm not.

Haven't you noticed they are all doing this, people can't afford to become pilots anymore at these salaries. At a local flight school around here it is now $170 an hour to fly a C172. Then you can go and make less than $30,000 a year in your twenties, or if your lucky $50,000. Now as the shortage gets bigger, the airlines will have to adapt. Will the pilots be able to capitalize by forcing higher salaries, or will the airlines start paying for better training?

 

[flyboyike]

Haven't you noticed they are all doing this, people can't afford to become pilots anymore at these salaries. At a local flight school around here it is now $170 an hour to fly a C172. Then you can go and make less than $30,000 a year in your twenties, or if your lucky $50,000. Now as the shortage gets bigger, the airlines will have to adapt. Will the pilots be able to capitalize by forcing higher salaries, or will the airlines start paying for better training?

Speak the truth, brother. Is a C172 really $170/hr?

 

[honeycomb]

Relative-ity

Okay, enough of the whose got the answer none sense.

I worked there...I left there. I was a capt off the street there. I flew with the 600 hour pilots from gulfstream international.

All hours do not equal other hours. My point....a 600 hour flight instructor is not the same as a 600 hour banner tower. A 600 hour (400 hours multi and 300 B-1900) is not your 600 hour flight instructor.

I was flying Lear Jets by age 19. I had less than 600 hours at the time.

There is no way that a 600 hour pilot is ready for the CRJ. But, with the right streamlining of the process....a 600 hour CRJ pilot is born.

Believe me that Pinnacle (then Express) has the worst training I have every seen. And, then some. Terrrible doesn't do justice.

So, the 600 hour pilot is doomed. Not so. I never took an A/C from any of the GI guys/gals. Not one time. Sorry. I did have to do a lot of explaining. They can't be expected to know it all? Of course not.

The airline years ago held that hiring should be done in the following:
1. Hire 1/3 ex(or retired)-military.
2. Hire 1/3 married with kids.
3. Hire 1/3 as green as possible pilots.

This was from CEO P.T.'s lips at a Dinner right before or after the first airline of the year awards. (Don't ask me how though.)

He had his reasons. He explained them at the dinner too.

I tell you about that later. But, every time we posted his remarks (transcripts) from the dinner the management team (Base Manager) took them down.

Funny.

Look not all flight time is equal. Not all pilots are equal. And the interviews will be different based on your experience.

I am the happiest ever since leaving....the best I have felt in a long time mind you.

Steer clear. There goal is warm bodies. Remember you are paying for the worst training ever. And, they will not go out of there way to help you pass. I hear they are booting a couple during IOE from time to time. I wonder why? Maybe not all flight time is equal.

You'll have a lot on your plate if you pony up. Like learning first turbine, first jet, first swept wing, first contract, first 121, first training evolution, first crew cockpit, first autopilot/flight director, first automated a/c and list goes on.

Maybe you'll find someone helpful to get you through. But, don't count on it.

Peace

 

[wudalmstfly4fre]

What should we do to get prepared for the CRJ. I am an instructor and just had a friend I worked with get on at Pinnacle and he said no amount of time instructing would prrepare you for FO training, other than instrument knowledge.

 

[honeycomb]

That is a Loaded Q...

Hey sorry but I cannot answer that and here is why.

I helped lots of folks pre- 9-11 get through training and on the line. But, I don't know what you don't know. See my point?

I was a previous 121 pilot in the right seat of a ERJ with almost 5 years of line flying at that 121 operation when I transferred to Express I Airlines, Inc. (now Pinnacle)as a Captain Off the Street. I had no problems. But, the training was bad. I bought Bombardier manuals and got everyone (the sound of coughing) cooopiessss to study from. I prep'ed everyone on performance, systems, cpt and sim and then the line....burkaburka! That is what it took to help some pilots through with 3500 hours of navajo time.

I had (I think) 450 hours multi and 150 single with about 300 Multi-Turbine PIC when I got into the Lear 24 for the first time. I was a warm body. You don't know what a non flying pilots job is until you have been flying the a/c and watched the nfp (captain) do the work of a nfp when you are fp (flying pilot). Therefore you are behind already.

The CRJ (and ERJ) are very intensive nfp duty a/c. You are very busy and with a 6 minute flight from DTW to flint or toledo well you can see how.

Look I can tell you some of the got'cha's to avoid. But, unless you and I fly together I cannot point out how to improve. And, until you have seen how to be a good non flying pilot then you are useless in that seat.

It is not that you could not do it. But, you may take 6 months to a 1 year to finally get comfortable in the CRJ. And that is just for the a/c and not the other stuff...like contract....regs....crew resource (btw you are always learning..including me)...etc.

You don't have the experience of other similiar a/c to draw upon to aid you and give you insight.

Maybe I'll think it over and post some helpful info later.

 

[CaptETWes]

Counter-point

A Pinnacle interview is comparable to any other regional airline hiring.

I completely disagree. They were 1 of the three that invited me to interview and it was hands-down the hardest. Not only was it hardest, but the longest and most stress-inducing - the latter I believe is on purpose. I've heard so many people inside and outside of Pinnacle that the FAA came down hard on them after the MO crash, particularly in the hiring department. My interview class consisted of 13 people. 4 including me made it through all four parts and 2 that I know of were given offers. You do the math and if they only hire at that percentage then you can see why they interview so many people and so often. Last I read they were booking interviews well into September. I believe that they push you to your limit and are mostly concerned with your decision-making skills during the situational-based portion of the interview. They try to get in your head and are looking for your breaking point.

Do I agree with low-time pilots in the right seat? Not particularly, but it's up to each individual airline to make those minimums. They will either live or die by that ideology. I firmly believe there is nothing anyone can provide that will substitute for experience; and that translates into many hours. I was hired at my regional at just over 1000TTL 6 months ago. Some would say that's too low; others that I could have started accruing seniority somewhere much sooner than I did. Too many people are impatient and take the first thing that falls in their lap. For me, I knew the path I wanted to take and it involved much more time than 500 hrs. I pray the day never comes that I open a morning newspaper and read that a 500 hour pilot was responsible for an accident. That will be the straw that breaks the camel's back - or this debate's "9/11;" the event that changes it forever.

I also disagree with another's post that 500-1000 hours is only VFR time-building. For some that may be the case, but you cannot stereo-type everyone into that category. CFIs, particularly the devoted ones that work at busy flight schools, are not worthy of that statement. Instructing offered me so much and IS the reason why I have succeeded at my airline.

 

[pilotyip]

They have not lower their standards, they have redefined their competitive minimums.

 

[JohnnyP]

Do I agree with low-time pilots in the right seat? Not particularly, but it's up to each individual airline to make those minimums.

I was hired at my regional at just over 1000TTL 6 months ago.

For me, I knew the path I wanted to take and it involved much more time than 500 hrs.

??.....

 

[CaptETWes]

Notice in this thread...low-time = 500TTL. therefore, my time would not be considered low. unless, you are of the ideology that many thousands of hours should be the min.

I also believe that given the right kind of experience, there is a huge difference between 500TTL and 1000+. Again, like everything in this debate, that's JMO.

 

[honeycomb]

Are you typed in the CRJ?

CaptETWes I have a question. Are you typed in the CRJ?

You list CL-65 under types (or is it ratings) on your proflie. And, I was wondering if you are typed or just hoping?

Thanks in advance.