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Pinnacle Air Services
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) Sounds like things are on the up and up!!75TH_RANGER
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I know with all the rumors floating around, everyone is waiting with anticipation for closure in this matter. Why not wait for official correspondence before commenting on something that may or may not be factual? Rumors lead to disconnect and failure in any organization. This negotiation is not going to finalize overnight. Hopefully, a positive outcome will come in the near future. Until then it’s probably best to keep hearsay to a minimum.
V/R,
Rake
~ And no, I'm not affiliated with management from either organization. Just a simple observation from past experiences.
starcheckdriver
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By your rational this thread should never have started. Short of questions about benifits and pay the whole thing is nothing but heresay. Come to think of it half of the stuff posted on flightinfo is heresay (this very statement was speculation and heresay thus making my pointRake said:
). Look pilots love to spread rumors as if they are fact and this big knitting circle we call a chat room satisfies this need.Airnet has had bad luck recently with buyouts. Last November it was a done deal, then at the last minute it fell through. Yes it was different, a stock buy back in an attempt to privatize the company, but from our perspective the lead up to both events is strickingly similar and the end results difficult to ignore.
The negotiations have been going on for some time. Nobody thought that it would happen overnight. But this has been dragging on for some time now. Something happened *edit* with the managed aircraft, Pinnacle doesnt want them (oh know more heresay
).WDR11
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Stealthh21
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slickmagneto
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Oliver Reed
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Whoopdy do, there's aviation lookin out for me again.
That certainly is a leap of faith to assume pay will be going up to match JR's, which is already inconsistent and anaemic. Whatever defense is given of the ownership and management of Pinnacle, pay is almost always an indication of the general attitude of employer to employee and the bottom line is you've got to be a real a%$hole to pay 35 and 70 and think your paying someone a liveable wage for their relavent station in life. Give me a break . If I worked at JR I'd have multiple resumes out.
Would I be going out on a limb to assume the trainining is anything more than mediocre Bombardier/Flight Safety insurance stamping, as it is at JetRide. Does Pinnacle have international training, CRM or standardization. How about 6 mo training events for crews? Let me guess?
That certainly is a leap of faith to assume pay will be going up to match JR's, which is already inconsistent and anaemic. Whatever defense is given of the ownership and management of Pinnacle, pay is almost always an indication of the general attitude of employer to employee and the bottom line is you've got to be a real a%$hole to pay 35 and 70 and think your paying someone a liveable wage for their relavent station in life. Give me a break . If I worked at JR I'd have multiple resumes out.
Would I be going out on a limb to assume the trainining is anything more than mediocre Bombardier/Flight Safety insurance stamping, as it is at JetRide. Does Pinnacle have international training, CRM or standardization. How about 6 mo training events for crews? Let me guess?
starcheckdriver
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Sorry, I made a mistake regarding the Skyjet and NetJets contract planes. It was mistated on the Airnet website. They were referring to our managed aircraft that we operate on our certificate. They were calling the deal dead because supposedly Pinnacle does not want anything to do with the managed airplanes on JetRide's certificate.
I am curious who your source is at JR (I am thinking it is first hand and you are trying to protect yourself by coming across as an outsider). The inconsistant pay problems of the past have been fixed, not sure about the anemic ones (or what it meant).Oliver Reed said:
Now what is the average pay for a LR35 and LR60 Capt.'s and FO's? Make sure you are only comparing 135 companies, and not 91's. Once you have addressed pay then you should examine the quality of life. Look I am not defending managment. I think we are worth more than we are paid, however 70K is close to average for a 60 capt. A little low, but hardly the slave wages you make it out to be. What is a "relavant situation in life"? People are people a paid what they are worth not necessarly what they want/need. If an individual made some poor decisions early on, got themselves into debt, well it is not the employeer's fault, and defenatly not their responsibilty to bail them out. Did I take your statement the wrong way?
What are the alternatives to the "rubber stamp" training you were refering to? What do other 135 compaines do?
Look I realize that you want a higher level of training, and pay. But those things cost money. If you had your way and a company implimented your proposals there would be no way for them to compete.
Anyway, for what it is worth I do have resumes out.
WDR11
Oliver Reed
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reply to USC11
No to my relief I don't work at JetRide, though I will confess I used to work at "the net". Have been watching AirNet/JR with interest since my departure.
Admittedly, you'd know better than I, but I understand that all pilots negotiate their own salary and there is, as of today, significant differences between individuals pay. If this is true it proves my point which you rejected- you are paid (within reason) what YOU think you are worth, both individually and especially as a collective group. It's no different part 91. Regards debt; yes you did read me wrong. Most folks arrive after college, flight training and instructing with debt. My boss paid me a decent liveable wage when I first got this job because he said it was the fair thing to do after paying my dues for so many years and he didn't want me worrying about money while I was flying him and his family around.
Regarding airnet training, ignoring conglomerate "fuzzy" accounting; apparently NetJets, Flex and dozens of companies, large and small fork out for training over and above the minimum "rubber stamping" and make a decent profit. That's one of the reasons they can charge a premium for their product. As big as airnet/JR is CRM, international training and customer service and all the other stuff could be very economical if it was done in house. I guess you just need the experience to teach it. Also, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a bent airplane or a guy losing his ticket/job (not that I remember the net giving a dang about that). My Fd reports to the boss and his accounting guy once a year. We just tell em the airlines do it and that's good enough. Safety- get's those heart strings every time. As far as I'm concerned, doing airplanes is expensive and exclusive, if you can't afford it, you need to find another field of business.
QoL issues? I guess it's not fair from second hand info to bash, but from memory WDR11 places you squarely in management and/or training, which if probably means you spend most of your time in the CMH and not on the line.
No to my relief I don't work at JetRide, though I will confess I used to work at "the net". Have been watching AirNet/JR with interest since my departure.
Admittedly, you'd know better than I, but I understand that all pilots negotiate their own salary and there is, as of today, significant differences between individuals pay. If this is true it proves my point which you rejected- you are paid (within reason) what YOU think you are worth, both individually and especially as a collective group. It's no different part 91. Regards debt; yes you did read me wrong. Most folks arrive after college, flight training and instructing with debt. My boss paid me a decent liveable wage when I first got this job because he said it was the fair thing to do after paying my dues for so many years and he didn't want me worrying about money while I was flying him and his family around.
Regarding airnet training, ignoring conglomerate "fuzzy" accounting; apparently NetJets, Flex and dozens of companies, large and small fork out for training over and above the minimum "rubber stamping" and make a decent profit. That's one of the reasons they can charge a premium for their product. As big as airnet/JR is CRM, international training and customer service and all the other stuff could be very economical if it was done in house. I guess you just need the experience to teach it. Also, it's a hell of a lot cheaper than a bent airplane or a guy losing his ticket/job (not that I remember the net giving a dang about that). My Fd reports to the boss and his accounting guy once a year. We just tell em the airlines do it and that's good enough. Safety- get's those heart strings every time. As far as I'm concerned, doing airplanes is expensive and exclusive, if you can't afford it, you need to find another field of business.
QoL issues? I guess it's not fair from second hand info to bash, but from memory WDR11 places you squarely in management and/or training, which if probably means you spend most of your time in the CMH and not on the line.
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You are making far too many assumptions, not to mention the fact that completly misunderstood several of my points.Oliver Reed said:
Who said I did not negoiate my salary. I negoiated my copilot salary when I came over, and my capt salary when I upgraded. Granted there wasnt much wiggle room, they had parameters for flight time and experience. Coming over I had no 60 time. A high paying 60 position at another company would be out of the question since I had no time and no type. The same when I upgraded to capt. I was a relatively "green" captain. Having a family I also cannnot afford the luxury of giving the finger to every employeer that will not pay me a "liveable wage for", my " relavent station in life". As far as part 91 you miss my point. Average wages for a 91 job are considerably higher than a comparable 135 position.
Your "'fuzzy' accounting" remark labels you as one of the many uninformed/brainwashed people on the freight side who equate Jetride with Enron (only on a much smaller scale). Did you just say that NetJets makes a profit?? At times, and when they do it is pretty slim, perhaps it involves more "'fuzzy' accounting". Incidentally, what are these other companies "large and small" that you are refering too? Quit speaking in generalities.
As far as "rubber stamping" goes, Netjets has had their own problems with pencil whipping checkrides.
As far as charging a premium, we do. Our retail price is higher than most LR60 charter operators. If we are so unsafe why are the majority of our customers Netjets, Flex, and Citation Shares? I will agree that we need international training, and CRM standardization (which just came out). But our customer service is top notch.
I am not sure what you are refering to with Airnet "not giving a dang" about loosing a ticket. Safety? If so our safety record is unbeatable. For the number of operations flown we have the fewest accidents of any 135 operator.
We are Wyvren Argus certified, what else do you want?
As far as assuming that I live in CMH, it was an honest mistake for someone as completly unfamilar with Jetride as you are. All Jetride captains are assigned a two digit number. I have been with Airnet for 5 years and I have never, nor have I wanted to live in CMH/LCK. I spent all five years on the line.
So far everything you have written, with few exceptions (need for international and CRM training), have been wrong. If you want to respond try to be accurate if you are going keep the sanctimonious tone.
WDR11
*edit* I wanted to add that I am not trying to offend anyone with NetJets. I was meerly countering an individual that seemed that seemed to think that they were infallible. Really NetJets and Jetride are to different things, like the old apples and oranges comparison. Simply put NetJets has its own set of problems (just like all other operators) that no amount of money will fix.
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You should have kept editing. I did read you right. The employer dos not have a social responsibility to feel sorry for you because you are in debt. Do patients feel sorry for their Dr. who happens to be an intern? No he is paying his dues, just like all the "green" pilots out there moving on from CFI'ing to 135.Oliver Reed said:
You want to talk about fair. Is it fair for someone with only 2000 hours to have, in what I can only assume from your condesending tone, is an *edit spelling*exorbidant salary, far beyond your marketable worth? No of course not, life is not fair. You are either lucky, or a good negoiater (perhaps both). Regardless you succeded inspite of yourself. Congrats on pulling the wool over your bosses eyes. You blather on and on about fairness when you are the anthesis of it.
WDR11
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Oliver Reed said:
Since when was 70k an unliveable wage. Maybe some of you are not ready for corporate aviation and should go back to flight instructing untill you pull your heads out. Or perhaps the drive thru position at Taco Bell would be more suitable for those who are unprofessional enough to talk bad about their own(or others) company.
Oliver Reed
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Worlds Smartest pilot and mac
My apologies to all as I've unintentionally steered this thread from the original discussion, so this is my last response. But brief as poss and in no particular order. My current hours and quals are not updated. Yes, I am a good negotiator. No my boss has no resposibility to me, his good character made that choice. 91's easier flying and we get paid more- speaks volumes about the difference between timebuilders & job chasers and professionals. Netjets and Flex report losses and if you believe that you should get some business experience. yes 70K is a liveable wage, but not appropriate for a 25 year veteran of a company and that's were it'll be adjusted for inflation. 35K's a liveable wage? I guess for your for first job out of college. I saw the net use checkrides and a bunch of other balloney reasons to get rid of folks who weren't bent over far enough. Comparing NetJets/Flex training with the nets?. The big difference between NJ and JR is attitude and you have to be crazy to even compare the two. 135 safety is attrocious, so congrats on being the best. Safety? The net has had quite a few fatalities and incidents over the years. Wyvern and Argus are a joke if their audit didn't figure that out. I'm leaving the thread so no reply necessary.
My apologies to all as I've unintentionally steered this thread from the original discussion, so this is my last response. But brief as poss and in no particular order. My current hours and quals are not updated. Yes, I am a good negotiator. No my boss has no resposibility to me, his good character made that choice. 91's easier flying and we get paid more- speaks volumes about the difference between timebuilders & job chasers and professionals. Netjets and Flex report losses and if you believe that you should get some business experience. yes 70K is a liveable wage, but not appropriate for a 25 year veteran of a company and that's were it'll be adjusted for inflation. 35K's a liveable wage? I guess for your for first job out of college. I saw the net use checkrides and a bunch of other balloney reasons to get rid of folks who weren't bent over far enough. Comparing NetJets/Flex training with the nets?. The big difference between NJ and JR is attitude and you have to be crazy to even compare the two. 135 safety is attrocious, so congrats on being the best. Safety? The net has had quite a few fatalities and incidents over the years. Wyvern and Argus are a joke if their audit didn't figure that out. I'm leaving the thread so no reply necessary.
I doubt that you have left, nevertheless nice chickensh*t way to try to get the last word.Oliver Reed said:
So when did you fail your check ride with Airnet, and subsiquently get fired? That is what all this annomicoty is about isnt it? I will agree that a few (emphasis on few) pilots were not treated as fairly as they should have. But even in those situations I was not made aware of all the circumstances surrounding the failure/firing. It seems that many pilots will never admit their failure. Someone at CMH/LCK had it in for them. It was never their fault. It sounds kind of like all those people convicted of a crime who claim to be innocent.
Are you insinuating that part 91 pilots are professionals, while 135 are not. Even someone as arrogant as you would not say that, however it does seem that that is what you are implying. If so then I would have to say that you are the one being unprofessional.
Show me NetJets numbers, where are these huge profits?
Quit complaining about salary, you sound like an education major complaining about what teachers make. They new before getting into it what they would make. You new that early on you would not make much as a green pilot, no where close to 35K.
Are you the crazy one then since you started the whole comparison between Netjets/Flex to JR? What is this attitude that you are talking about? The whole reason I never left Airnet along time ago for NetJets was I could not afford the pay cut, and I did not want the schedule. Also when I spoke to their pilots they never seemed happy with the company (mind you this was before the new contract, havent spoken to any since). Some hated a few were neutral only one that I new of liked it.
Are you stupid or just being vague and using a rediculous amount of hyperbole in a vain attempt to try and make a point? Airnet has had 4 fatalities. Two fell asleep, 1 due to wake turb., and one due to an inflight fire. All were prop aircraft. We have never had a fatality in a jet aircraft. There have been accidents yes. But so have NetJets and Flex.
Were you saying Wyvreen and Argus know that they are a joke, and they figured it out through an audit? In my opinion they are there to make pax feel better (kind of like supplimental oxygen). But what else is there?
Try acting a little more like the professional you claim to be.
WDR11
TigerDriver
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starcheckdriver
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cl604driver
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I am curious about the TA, but Airnet/JR was well aware of his intentions to go to SWA. What is he supposed to do put his life on hold for a year because the company wanted him to get the type? There was no way for him to know when or if he would be called.cl604driver said:
Yes it was a waste of money, but that is nothing new.
WDR11
cl604driver
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