Pinnacle 1113 ruling set for this Thursday

[Gr82Aviate]

I have received more than one PM from his co workers to put him on ignore.

The "General" or Flyer1015?

 

[General Lee]

I have laughed at many of your posts but this is awesome. I have agreed with some of your ideas and for the most part you are full of ......we researched things about Delta but in this case you are full of a lot more crap. Seriously...handle the bigger aircraft? Really? One of my friends dad retired on the whale and guess what? at 300 hours he was hired at NWA to sit sideways on the 727, then went to FO, then Captain. Not long after that he was a captain on the 747. Statements like what you just posted about handling larger aircraft ....shows you are about as full of it as Flyer. Flyer made a good choice to leave, there are a lot of others waiting for that opportunity. But your statement is ridiculous. Career progression used to be from a Turbo prop to mainline. Done. When I was a intern at NWA with 260 hours, I did every lesson in the SIM on the 320 without a problem. So what you are saying is that a couple thousand hours of PIC in a CRJ means nothing and some idiot who gets lucky, with no PIC experience to bring to the job is a better choice. just peachy.

Laugh away man, but interviewers just don't disgard pilots that move on from the regionals. Sure, PIC is better, but 1015 figured it out quick that PNCL was going nowhere but down, and he made a good choice. If the PIC times was years away, he then made a better move, one that gets him a better chance. As far as Majors looking at LCC FOs, it is true. If they pased Airbus or 737 training, that means they can do it again. And, some INTL airlines want people with experience on larger planes with certain weights. (Emirates for example) Hey, 1015 made the move for his own reasons, and it probably will benefit him later on. I never said a couple thousand PIC doesn't mean anything, I said he made a good choice with what he had. You could do the same, and it might look better on your resume. Or, you can keep the status quo, and see where that takes you. In 5-7 years, there will be so much hiring that PIC won't really matter anyway. It'll all be about who has "jet time." But, those who get hired in the beginning of the wave will have a better QOL for the rest of their careers. That is the difference here.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[xjhawk]

what you are saying is right, but lets look at this. Many I know want out but where are we suppose to go when they hire FO's with no PIC before a more qualified pilot-oh thats right, Flyer says we are substandard and lazy. I and many like me have applied at Virgin, Emirates, Jetblue, Atlas, but stopped short at some others for financial reasons. I will take a hit for a couple years but cannot take a hit for 10. That being said, if Pinnacle goes away, I will take a hit no matter what but I have to hold out and hope that the ones doing the hiring at the majors will look at years of airline experience with valuable PIC decision making experience will put us ahead of those like flyer who have only proved that they can fly an airbus (which i might add as I said before I had no problem flying in the SIM when I had 250 hours-or that many foreign carriers put those 300 hour wonders in a 320). I suppose Delta will be doing the same as those foreign carriers in a few short years. Oh well, anyone over 40 with 10 years at a regional will be looked upon as untrainable while ......never mind. its a lost cause

 

[xjhawk]

i like how the General makes it sound as if we all choose to stay at Pinnacle and how we have so many options.

lets see

Do I leave my kids and go overseas when they are 1 1/2 and 3 1/2? right now that answer is no but I have looked into it and will if I lose my job now

 

[General Lee]

Xjhawk,


First of all, calm down. I hope you get to go where you want to go. I really do. I am just saying 1015 made a smart move. Some people may think it was risky, but he saw the writing on the wall for PNCL, and made a smart move IMO. Some people have kids or side businesses and can't make the jump, I understand that. If you can, it may be smart, primarily because it may get you noticed by the Legacies if that is where you want to end up. Sure, 300 hour wonders can fly the 320 in China. It still looks good to recruiters and interviewers. PIC is also a huge plus, and that may help in the beginning of the wave hiring, but not at the end. At the end, I bet only jet time will be required. The key again to a great end of a career is to be in the front part of the hiring wave. It will make your life a whole lot easier. Good luck to you.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flyer1015]

xjhawk. "Idiot" name calling? There's no need for that. Especially when you know I've offered to help how you if I can when the hiring picks up again here.

I and many like me have applied at Virgin, Emirates, Jetblue, Atlas, but stopped short at some others for financial reasons.

That's fine, and to each his own. I applied to Virgin, Emirates, JetBlue, Atlas, Aloha Air Cargo, Skyking, Miami Air, Skylease Cargo, Amerijet, Southern Air, Centurion, Spirit, US Airways, Hawaiian, Allegiant, Sun Country, Kalitta Charters, Xtra Airways, Qatar, flyDubai, Air Arabia, Air Mauritius, XOJet, Avantair, and corporate gigs like Parker, Corning, Dow, and a host of others. Do you know how long it takes to fill out all those applications? I spent countless hours searching for jobs online and then applying. I spent hundreds of dollars on job fairs, hotels, meals/expenses just hoping to get a shot. I heard nothing back: except ONE. And once I got that ONE opportunity, I studied for two full days before I took the online test. I did countless practice computerized tests online, timed myself, then found new tests, rinsed and repeated. From passing that test, I landed one interview opportunity, and even then I still had to earn it. Half the people with me that day did not make it.

 

[RJLoser]

the "general" or flyer1015?

gl..........

 

[General Lee]

gl..........

I honestly don't care. Please put me on ignore. If you want to ignore the truth, do it. Many of you can't debate the facts anyway. BYE!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flyer1015]

The General has many good posts. Unlike some others, he actually writes long thought-out posts. We may not agree on everything, but I respect this guy.

 

[xjhawk]

Thanks general. I am calm. There are more important things to reserve my emotions for than this career. If I did not say it before, I like your posts and think they are well thought and researched. I just did not like what you said-thats all. Heck-I do not always like what my friends say either. We can all have our opinions.

 

[General Lee]

Thanks general. I am calm. There are more important things to reserve my emotions for than this career. If I did not say it before, I like your posts and think they are well thought and researched. I just did not like what you said-thats all. Heck-I do not always like what my friends say either. We can all have our opinions.

I hear you. It has been a frustrating decade. Hiring stopped compared to the late 90s, age 65 happened, and the BKs. Not fun for a lot of people. I just stated 1015 made a good move for himself. He got away from PNCL, even without PIC. He can choose to ride it out with Virgin America. It may do well, it may merge with a legacy. Who knows? That was his shot, and he took it. I think PIC is preferable, but LCC FO SIC beats Regional only SIC. That is what I was trying to say. He will have a good shot at another move if he wants, and your PIC will get you where you want to go. Come up with a plan on where you want to go, pick a few choices. Go out and try to meet people who fly there, job fairs, etc. Network and keep flying and don't make mistakes with the FAA, and you'll make it.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[gearjockey]

Why are you more qualified than flyer 1015? Maybe Flyer 1015 Just wasn't old enough or fortunate enough to be hired before you. Everyone's going to be hired as an FO, after all. There's minimum qualifications (which flyer has) and there's the real question; do I want to sit next to this guy and work with him (never a question with her, I don't careimp Thankfully, airlines are concentrating almost exclusively on personality. If I were HR, I would never hire the top %10 of any sen. list. They are most often the worst crew members and pose a risk. Maybe Rickair can weigh in on that, he seems to be Mr. HR on this forum. Obviously flyer interviewed well and has proven he can fly the airbus. He was hired at pinnacle to be a CA so he most likely has those "decision making skills".

what you are saying is right, but lets look at this. Many I know want out but where are we suppose to go when they hire FO's with no PIC before a more qualified pilot-oh thats right, Flyer says we are substandard and lazy. I and many like me have applied at Virgin, Emirates, Jetblue, Atlas, but stopped short at some others for financial reasons. I will take a hit for a couple years but cannot take a hit for 10. That being said, if Pinnacle goes away, I will take a hit no matter what but I have to hold out and hope that the ones doing the hiring at the majors will look at years of airline experience with valuable PIC decision making experience will put us ahead of those like flyer who have only proved that they can fly an airbus (which i might add as I said before I had no problem flying in the SIM when I had 250 hours-or that many foreign carriers put those 300 hour wonders in a 320). I suppose Delta will be doing the same as those foreign carriers in a few short years. Oh well, anyone over 40 with 10 years at a regional will be looked upon as untrainable while ......never mind. its a lost cause

 

[xjhawk]

Why are you more qualified than flyer 1015? Maybe Flyer 1015 Just wasn't old enough or fortunate enough to be hired before you. Everyone's going to be hired as an FO, after all. There's minimum qualifications (which flyer has) and there's the real question; do I want to sit next to this guy and work with him (never a question with her, I don't careimp Thankfully, airlines are concentrating almost exclusively on personality. If I were HR, I would never hire the top %10 of any sen. list. They are most often the worst crew members and pose a risk. Maybe Rickair can weigh in on that, he seems to be Mr. HR on this forum. Obviously flyer interviewed well and has proven he can fly the airbus. He was hired at pinnacle to be a CA so he most likely has those "decision making skills".

Just another person to put on my ignore list.... making assumptions on peoples personality and qualifications just based on age or where they are on a seniority list shows your severe lack of reasoning and intellect. Why dont you get out and meet and fly with some of these people before you make assumptions about their personality and aviation skills. Just maybe you are trying to say that the top 10% of a seniority list are most content and therefore not applying at other jobs for whatever personal reason they have chosen. I will not seeing your response as I am about done with trying to beat sense into people

 

[NEWSOUTH]

Why are you more qualified than flyer 1015? Maybe Flyer 1015 Just wasn't old enough or fortunate enough to be hired before you. Everyone's going to be hired as an FO, after all. There's minimum qualifications (which flyer has) and there's the real question; do I want to sit next to this guy and work with him (never a question with her, I don't careimp Thankfully, airlines are concentrating almost exclusively on personality. If I were HR, I would never hire the top %10 of any sen. list. They are most often the worst crew members and pose a risk. Maybe Rickair can weigh in on that, he seems to be Mr. HR on this forum. Obviously flyer interviewed well and has proven he can fly the airbus. He was hired at pinnacle to be a CA so he most likely has those "decision making skills".

Really? I can't wait to fly with people that have more experience then me. I loved it when I was a new hire. I was in the top 10% before the SLI. You would not hire me or want to fly with me? I pose a risk? Again, I can't wait to fly with someone 20 years older and more experience. I dream of it. To learn more and watch and work with somebody that has twice the hours would be awsome. Maybe you should check your ego and relax. No need to prove yourself in the 121 CRM world. It is much safer and fun. Good Luck!

 

[e=mc2]

Could just be a simple fact they don't want to hire losers and pinnacle is full of them.

 

[SoberIrishman]

No, the simple fact is that Pinnacle is done, probably before mid 2013. All the delta money has been drawn down. All gone. There are hundreds of fine people there that will be faced with the same treatment given to Comair.

The other scenario is concessions to force the bar even lower, and that won't buy but a few months, but will screw everyone else for years. A firm stand needs to be taken against this corporate piracy by the majors, however we can't blame 9E pilots for trying to save their jobs. Not their fault for employer mismanagement.

This is the cold reality, brought about in large part by those who are happy to take jobs at one of the most disgusting operations ever started, Ho-jets.
No matter their background, those people deserve zero respect. And don't tell me there was nowhere else to go! Employing that operation as a Delta brand is a disgrace, and using the name of a great aviator as a call sign makes me sick.

Regional "lifer" and happy to be so!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[1.3XVso]

Could just be a simple fact they don't want to hire losers and pinnacle is full of them.

This guy just summed up 9e in one sentence! And don't forget spineless.

The writing on the wall was back when I got hired in 03. Do the math.

 

[big shacks]

Back in 03 I was at 9e ...the glory days! Things were great.

 

[Flyer1015]

No, the simple fact is that Pinnacle is done, probably before mid 2013. All the delta money has been drawn down. All gone. There are hundreds of fine people there that will be faced with the same treatment given to Comair.

The other scenario is concessions to force the bar even lower, and that won't buy but a few months, but will screw everyone else for years. A firm stand needs to be taken against this corporate piracy by the majors, however we can't blame 9E pilots for trying to save their jobs. Not their fault for employer mismanagement.

This is the cold reality, brought about in large part by those who are happy to take jobs at one of the most disgusting operations ever started, Ho-jets.
No matter their background, those people deserve zero respect. And don't tell me there was nowhere else to go! Employing that operation as a Delta brand is a disgrace, and using the name of a great aviator as a call sign makes me sick.

Regional "lifer" and happy to be so!

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Why be mad about a gamble the TSA MEC made and lost? Their owner made it clear he wanted an operation at a certain wage set. If you don't accept it, are you surprised he started GoJets? I'll agree that initially it was a shady place, but GoJets today in 2012 is like ANY other regional out there. Today, GoJets hasn't done anything another regional didn't do already. You write all this, but where was the uproar when 9E received 125 CRJ-200s while mainline DC9s and 727s were parked post 9/11? Where was the uproar when Pinnacle received RJs that were actually suppose to go to another RJ operator, but mainline decided to use the planes as carrots?

 

[1.3XVso]

Back in 03 I was at 9e ...the glory days! Things were great.

Did you inject koolaide or snorted it?

 

[FOrever85]

Really? I can't wait to fly with people that have more experience then me. I loved it when I was a new hire. I was in the top 10% before the SLI. You would not hire me or want to fly with me? I pose a risk? Again, I can't wait to fly with someone 20 years older and more experience. I dream of it. To learn more and watch and work with somebody that has twice the hours would be awsome. Maybe you should check your ego and relax. No need to prove yourself in the 121 CRM world. It is much safer and fun. Good Luck!

This guy just summed up 9e in one sentence! And don't forget spineless.

The writing on the wall was back when I got hired in 03. Do the math.

Really???
2003 when you went from 40 crjs to 124. Yeah those must have been some telling times. Or did your really reliable "source" at delta tell you this was going to happen back in 2003 you know the same one that doesn't understand scope language and thinks there are 90 900's coming.

 

[Lear70]

Why be mad about a gamble the TSA MEC made and lost? Their owner made it clear he wanted an operation at a certain wage set. If you don't accept it, are you surprised he started GoJets? I'll agree that initially it was a shady place, but GoJets today in 2012 is like ANY other regional out there. Today, GoJets hasn't done anything another regional didn't do already. You write all this, but where was the uproar when 9E received 125 CRJ-200s while mainline DC9s and 727s were parked post 9/11?

Whoa there a second, hoss.

If you'll remember, PCL received their 125 CRJ contract BEFORE 9/11. I know, because I was hired as a street Captain in May of 2011 after my 727 operator had ITS flying taken by FedEx (who hired none of us).

We were hired because of all the CRJ's coming and the stupidity of the training department teaching an automated sim course to Turboprop guys who had never seen a jet and the Saab CA to CRJ CA course had a 76% failure rate (watched one guy I was sitting seat support with roll the airplane upside down on his rate ride while I'm screaming RUDDER!! at him).

2011 forced furloughs at mainline, very true, but the CRJ delivery schedule was set long before then.

Where was the uproar when Pinnacle received RJs that were actually suppose to go to another RJ operator, but mainline decided to use the planes as carrots?

Big difference in my mind, amigo, between shifting deliveries somewhere and deliberately closing the doors on an operation through a legal set of maneuvers called Bankruptcy just to put replacement airplanes somewhere else, thus lowering overall costs while putting thousands of people on the streets (including all the other employees).

This is a dark time, just when it looked like the industry was recovering, and it's a sh*tty game for DL to play just to save a buck at the expense of careers that may, in many instances, never be rebuilt. If Delta were in dire straits and HAD to do it, that would be one thing, but to do it while profitable at the expense of so many people... just goes back to those first aviators decades ago who sold out the first bit of Scope.

P.S. Congrats on VX, didn't know you'd bailed. Lost touch with so many from there, hoping 9E makes it through...

 

[Flyer1015]

Whoa there a second, hoss.

If you'll remember, PCL received their 125 CRJ contract BEFORE 9/11. I know, because I was hired as a street Captain in May of 2011 after my 727 operator had ITS flying taken by FedEx (who hired none of us).

We were hired because of all the CRJ's coming and the stupidity of the training department teaching an automated sim course to Turboprop guys who had never seen a jet and the Saab CA to CRJ CA course had a 76% failure rate (watched one guy I was sitting seat support with roll the airplane upside down on his rate ride while I'm screaming RUDDER!! at him).

2011 forced furloughs at mainline, very true, but the CRJ delivery schedule was set long before then.


Big difference in my mind, amigo, between shifting deliveries somewhere and deliberately closing the doors on an operation through a legal set of maneuvers called Bankruptcy just to put replacement airplanes somewhere else, thus lowering overall costs while putting thousands of people on the streets (including all the other employees).

This is a dark time, just when it looked like the industry was recovering, and it's a sh*tty game for DL to play just to save a buck at the expense of careers that may, in many instances, never be rebuilt. If Delta were in dire straits and HAD to do it, that would be one thing, but to do it while profitable at the expense of so many people... just goes back to those first aviators decades ago who sold out the first bit of Scope.

P.S. Congrats on VX, didn't know you'd bailed. Lost touch with so many from there, hoping 9E makes it through...

Two references to 2011, I assume you meant 2001. Yes the first CRJ came in 2000 but the overwhelming majority followed post 9/11 and directly replaced 727 and DC9 flying. Whether or not 9/11 had to do with the fleet plan, I'm not sure, but the fact remains that NWA parked the domestic 727s and Dc9s while expanding CRJs.

You are correct about what's happening. But aren't regionals suppose to be cheap contract feed? If you have a super senior airline, won't it have higher costs than a relatively new airline with lower longevity costs? The regionals didn't have this problem in the 80s and 90s where people came in, got their time, and moved on. Now regionals are more senior because of less chances of moving up, and people wanting to hang on instead of jumping for what they think is uncertainty.

In any case, does Delta owe anything for loyalty for regionals? If it's contract feed, don't they owe it to their shareholders to do the same job safely at a lower cost if possible? It sucks for us as pilots, but Delta can have GoJets do it cheaper than Mesaba, then yes that's what they will do. Comair was arguably the most senior regional airline and Delta closed them up and shifted their flying. Pinnacle wasn't that senior but with the Mesaba merger, it too has become very senior. New entrants like Silver Airways and GoJets represent the lower cost reigonals and can do the same job safely at a cheaper rate.

This was the kinda BS that was coming, so I applied everywhere and jumped at the first opportunity. I've heard that 500 have quit for 2012 so far.

 

[Flyer1015]

Lear70, wanted to send a PM but your box is full.

 

[profit]

Big difference in my mind, amigo, between shifting deliveries somewhere and deliberately closing the doors on an operation through a legal set of maneuvers called Bankruptcy just to put replacement airplanes somewhere else, thus lowering overall costs while putting thousands of people on the streets (including all the other employees).

This is a dark time, just when it looked like the industry was recovering, and it's a sh*tty game for DL to play just to save a buck at the expense of careers that may, in many instances, never be rebuilt. If Delta were in dire straits and HAD to do it, that would be one thing, but to do it while profitable at the expense of so many people... just goes back to those first aviators decades ago who sold out the first bit of Scope.

Well said!

 

[1.3XVso]

Really???
2003 when you went from 40 crjs to 124. Yeah those must have been some telling times. Or did your really reliable "source" at delta tell you this was going to happen back in 2003 you know the same one that doesn't understand scope language and thinks there are 90 900's coming.

Yeah growing times you are correct but after a year and a half our 99 contract was amendable and then the party started. Also I have no relation with these idiots who are having wet dreams with those 900.

 

[CRJ puppy]

well said!

+223!!!

 

[Lear70]

Two references to 2011, I assume you meant 2001. Yes the first CRJ came in 2000 but the overwhelming majority followed post 9/11 and directly replaced 727 and DC9 flying. Whether or not 9/11 had to do with the fleet plan, I'm not sure, but the fact remains that NWA parked the domestic 727s and Dc9s while expanding CRJs.

Yes, I meant 2001. Sorry, I drink and post sometimes... or just don't proofread what I write.

The 50-seaters didn't replace ALL the 727 and DC-9 flying. The 727's were retired on-schedule, 9/11 nor the 50-seaters advanced that timeline whatsoever. The DC-9 flying is more complicated, and SOME of those -9's were replaced by 50 seaters into smaller markets (3 DC-9's replaced by 2 50-seaters, one of which flew the stand-up / EMO, and one DC-9 left on the route such as Duluth, Bozeman, etc that didn't support that many seats). However, a good portion of that flying was retired EARLY after 9/11, partly because airline bookings (and, thus profit) took a dive and also in part because of an expensive bulkhead A.D. on the older -9's (the -50's I think, but don't quote me) was coming due.

They were going to retire a LOT more DC-9's early, but bookings improved and they decided to do the A.D.'s on the larger -9's. Point is, PART of the -9's going away was driven by replacement with 50-seaters, but a larger portion was not, and was replaced with Airbus deliveries about the same time frame.

You are correct about what's happening. But aren't regionals suppose to be cheap contract feed? If you have a super senior airline, won't it have higher costs than a relatively new airline with lower longevity costs?

Of course they are, but that doesn't mean you constantly use new up-start regionals, bankruptcy, and shutdown, as a long-term CASM strategy for Mainline. Even at the highest longevity scale, the labor piece of a Regional such as PCL is roughly 1/3 of mainline's overall Labor Cost, and about 1/2 what a DC-9 / Airbus runs on a Labor CASM.

The regionals didn't have this problem in the 80s and 90s where people came in, got their time, and moved on. Now regionals are more senior because of less chances of moving up, and people wanting to hang on instead of jumping for what they think is uncertainty.

I think the people who want to move on will always move on to a Major carrier from a Regional. It's whether they'll move to permanent ex-pat flying like Emirates or a fringe carrier right on the edge like you did with VX or even, arguably, JB (although I think they have one of the best products in the industry). However, the rest of what you wrote is spot-on.

In any case, does Delta owe anything for loyalty for regionals? If it's contract feed, don't they owe it to their shareholders to do the same job safely at a lower cost if possible?

I would argue that their obligation to honor their feed contract and protect the employment of people who worked for them in good faith through the feeder company would be just as great as their obligation to the shareholders, but this is more of an ethical argument and we know about airline management and ethics.

It sucks for us as pilots, but Delta can have GoJets do it cheaper than Mesaba, then yes that's what they will do. Comair was arguably the most senior regional airline and Delta closed them up and shifted their flying. Pinnacle wasn't that senior but with the Mesaba merger, it too has become very senior. New entrants like Silver Airways and GoJets represent the lower cost reigonals and can do the same job safely at a cheaper rate.

I have no argument with a company taking a contract thats EXPIRING and using it to cost-shop for a lower bidder OR to offer a NEW contract to the lowest bidder. That's just the way business works.

But to use the threat of liquidation bankruptcy and career loss to obtain a better feed contract when they financially don't need to do so to continue profitably is morally reprehensible.

This was the kinda BS that was coming, so I applied everywhere and jumped at the first opportunity. I've heard that 500 have quit for 2012 so far.

Doesn't shock me, and good for you to have the foresight to jump. I've made one or two similar career moves in my lifetime and they seemed to have worked out fine thus far. The point is that people shouldn't HAVE to go through this crap every 3-5 years at one Regional or another just so mainline carriers can play one group off another.

What a mess this industry has become since I was a kid.

By the way, cleaned out my PM box, sorry.