Pinnacle 1113 ruling set for this Thursday

[A-10_JetMech]

Any bets this 1113 ruling gets delayed a few more weeks until the Delta fleet announcement in December? They will probably say they have 76 seaters ordered and that they will park MANY 200's even though we know this already. Then the judge will rule for the company and they will impose so they get the jets. No coincidence this is why they extended the re-organization deadline to Dec. 30th with Delta.

 

[SEVEN]

As I stated 2 months ago: New HQ will end up at the old NATCO...Delta will purchase 9E....9E will operate the 717's.

 

[1.3XVso]

As I stated 2 months ago: New HQ will end up at the old NATCO...Delta will purchase 9E....9E will operate the 717's.

Keep dreaming sevendust.

 

[Flyer1015]

How are you people okay with all this?! ESPECIALLY you ATL folks. You should be outraged at the complete lack of motivation of the 9E merger committee, their sheer incompetence, and the fact that they did not seek any clarification from Bloch and get an answer back. The list came out last Summer. It's been over one year. You ATL people are about to be seriously affected by the upcoming displacement. In the Bloch award, he used the Saab reduction in his quotas but did NOT for the jets because no jets were being parked. Now the Mesaba and Colgan committees will say that because 9E is losing its -900s, they do not have the protected 95 Captain seats. Where's your 9E committee's answer to this? Why did they not get an answer from Bloch in nearly 18 months? Sheer incompetence! ATL pilots, your only hope is that the 95 protected Captain seats is kept as a ratio (like 362:95, Mesaba to Pinnacle), because your worst case scenario right now is losing all 95 protected Captain seats on the -900. The VP of Crew Manning has asked 2 very basic questions, and they are time critical. The 9E committee "forgot" all about that letter, is is a clear failure to represent. And to add insult to injury he refuses to step down when asked. The life of being bought off trips and doing whatever you want on those paid union days with ZERO accountability is just too easy a life. The all expense paid trips to Outback Steakhouse to have the finest steak, they wouldn't give that up. For what? Actually working and trying to get an answer from Bloch? Screw that. "Waiter, can I get another beer with this filet mignon?"

 

[gojo]

How are you people okay with all this?! ESPECIALLY you ATL folks. You should be outraged at the complete lack of motivation of the 9E merger committee, their sheer incompetence, and the fact that they did not seek any clarification from Bloch and get an answer back. The list came out last Summer. It's been over one year. You ATL people are about to be seriously affected by the upcoming displacement. In the Bloch award, he used the Saab reduction in his quotas but did NOT for the jets because no jets were being parked. Now the Mesaba and Colgan committees will say that because 9E is losing its -900s, they do not have the protected 95 Captain seats. Where's your 9E committee's answer to this? Why did they not get an answer from Bloch in nearly 18 months? Sheer incompetence! ATL pilots, your only hope is that the 95 protected Captain seats is kept as a ratio (like 362:95, Mesaba to Pinnacle), because your worst case scenario right now is losing all 95 protected Captain seats on the -900. The VP of Crew Manning has asked 2 very basic questions, and they are time critical. The 9E committee "forgot" all about that letter, is is a clear failure to represent. And to add insult to injury he refuses to step down when asked. The life of being bought off trips and doing whatever you want on those paid union days with ZERO accountability is just too easy a life. The all expense paid trips to Outback Steakhouse to have the finest steak, they wouldn't give that up. For what? Actually working and trying to get an answer from Bloch? Screw that. "Waiter, can I get another beer with this filet mignon?"

Is it fair to say that they're working on a lot of things right now. And if the block award is changed for one aircraft leaving (9E 900's) shouldn't the whole award be revised? All the props are gone also

 

[Flyer1015]

Is it fair to say that they're working on a lot of things right now.

Yeah right. The list came out last summer 2011. It's now Nov 2012, a year and a half later and the 9E committee still didn't get any answers or clarifications from Bloch. They did, however, manage to rack up $12,000 in expenses in lodging and meals, whereas the Mesaba and Colgan committees only had $5,000-$6000 each. They double-outspent than their counterparts at Mesaba and Colgan.

And if the block award is changed for one aircraft leaving (9E 900's) shouldn't the whole award be revised? All the props are gone also

No. I just said, leave it alone. The Bloch award as of right now makes no adjustments for ANY jet leaving. So no matter what happens, 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 should be Pinnacle and 100 should be Mesaba. On the CRJ-900, same thing, quota of 372 Mesaba and 95 Pinnacle. This should be the case REGARDLESS of which jet is parked, the ratios (541:100 for the CRJ-200 and 372:95 for the CRJ-900) need to be maintained. This is because the Bloch award did NOT account for any jet leaving. To say anything otherwise is directly contradicting the Bloch award.

Now one could argue that it was known the Mesaba Saabs were leaving, and Bloch issued his award with a declining protection of Captain seats as the Saabs left. True. But the same was not done for jets, so no amount of conjecture or "well, he must have also meant it for the jets" should change that.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. As of right now, regardless of what happens, Bloch award allows 541 protected Pinnacle Captains on the CRJ-200 and 95 protected Captains on the CRJ-900. Of course, the Mesaba and Colgan committees will disagree and in the end, the 9E committee will yet again be nowhere to be seen, and the 9E pilot group will lose out again and get screwed once more.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Yeah right. The list came out last summer 2011. It's now Nov 2012, a year and a half later and the 9E committee still didn't get any answers or clarifications from Bloch. They did, however, manage to rack up $12,000 in expenses in lodging and meals, whereas the Mesaba and Colgan committees only had $5,000-$6000 each. They double-outspent than their counterparts at Mesaba and Colgan.


No. I just said, leave it alone. The Bloch award as of right now makes no adjustments for ANY jet leaving. So no matter what happens, 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 should be Pinnacle and 100 should be Mesaba. On the CRJ-900, same thing, quota of 372 Mesaba and 95 Pinnacle. This should be the case REGARDLESS of which jet is parked, the ratios (541:100 for the CRJ-200 and 372:95 for the CRJ-900) need to be maintained. This is because the Bloch award did NOT account for any jet leaving. To say anything otherwise is directly contradicting the Bloch award.

Now one could argue that it was known the Mesaba Saabs were leaving, and Bloch issued his award with a declining protection of Captain seats as the Saabs left. True. But the same was not done for jets, so no amount of conjecture or "well, he must have also meant it for the jets" should change that.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. As of right now, regardless of what happens, Bloch award allows 541 protected Pinnacle Captains on the CRJ-200 and 95 protected Captains on the CRJ-900. Of course, the Mesaba and Colgan committees will disagree and in the end, the 9E committee will yet again be nowhere to be seen, and the 9E pilot group will lose out again and get screwed once more.

Flyer, you hit the nail on the head man.

 

[xjhawk]

Flyer. Worry about your company and family. Stop fueling the fire here. Get your numbers right too. The 900's in ATL are specifically tied to the 95 positions for 9e. Same as Bloch had to the Saab fleets at MESABA. When they draw down, so do the slot numbers. When the 200 fleet is drawn down as per the delta pilot contract I am sure since the 200's are fully merged it will be a ratio even though the newest of the 200's which will most likely be the only ones remaining on property were. Pre merger MESABA. At that time there will be a lot more to worry about than just 95 positions. 1000 positions will be at risk unless we get the 70 new planes from the delta pilot contract.

If we are bought by delta- I will plan on the worst case scenario as the last time that happened I lost a great company (MESABA), lost seniority, lost pass benefits, got worse work rules, my flow, a possible displacement, downgrade, and I can only imagine what could be worse- oh yeah- a new flow? Awesome before I had 200 in front of me and now I would have a 1000. Just peachy.

 

[Flyer1015]

double post

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer. Worry about your company and family. Stop fueling the fire here. Get your numbers right too. The 900's in ATL are specifically tied to the 95 positions for 9e. Same as Bloch had to the Saab fleets at MESABA. When they draw down, so do the slot numbers.

That right there is the Mesaba fantasy. You couldn't be more wrong. Read the award again, NOWHERE does it mention anything about jet fleet reductions. Bloch did not account or direct for jet fleet reductions. Here is what he said:

"4. For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions. In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority.
"

It doesn't matter where the CRJ-900s are or where they came from. Mesaba must maintain 279 Captain positions and Pinnacle must maintain 95 Captain positions on the -900. PERIOD. That above paragraph does not say anything about jet fleet reduction. NOTE the bold part. In the event both groups have less than the ratio numbers, then the 279:95 is used as a ratio until the minimum is reached.

What YOU are saying about redacting or eliminating the 95 CRJ-900 positions goes against what Bloch has published.

You mention the Saabs. Yes, but the Saab case was SPECIFICALLY dealt by Bloch. He made clear instructions on the wind-down of Saab flying, and how the numbers would go down to zero.

Again, Bloch has not given any direction on jet fleet reductions, and has NOT tied ANY CRJ-900 positions to what base they came from or what airline they were.

The wording is clear. NO pilot may be awarded or displaced unless Mesaba maintains 279 and Pinnacle maintains 95. NO mention of ANY jet reductions or base closings. So stop making assumptions that the Saab case applies, because it does NOT.

Speaking of the Saabs, it's amazing that you and your Mesaba colleagues are NOW willingly trying to bend Bloch's award to suit your favor, by stating that the Pinnacle 95 protected number should go to zero. Amazing. Gee, remember when the Bloch award first came out, and Bloch said no Mesaba pilot may be awarded a Saab Captain position unless Colgan maintains XX captain seats, and no Colgan pilot may be awarded a Saab Captain seat unless Mesaba maintains XX Captain seats? THEY USED THAT PARAGRAPH TO KEEP ALL PINNACLE PILOTS OUT OF SAAB CAPTAIN SEATS, PERMANENTLY FOR 5 YEARS!

So how is it you Mesaba folks followed Bloch's award "to the T" and now are willing to bend it to suit your own needs?!

Bloch has made it clear:

CRJ-900s, Mesaba must maintain 279 and Pinnacle 95. IN THE EVENT THAT THEY GO BELOW, then a 279:95 ratio is to be used. There is no language for jet fleet reduction, so get that in your head. It was ONLY for the Saabs, and he worded it ONLY for the Saabs.


All that having been said, Mesaba will come out the winner because 9E's merger committee is incompetent. They failed the 9E group for the DOH issue to Bloch, in the email chain that was leaked, arbitrator Bloch clearly emailed and asked, "John, can you please clear this up for me?" So it showed that Bloch had no clue and was totally caught off guard with the 9E DOH versus class date issue. They failed to represent 9E Pilots fairly at that point. Now, they haven't been in touch with Bloch to clarify the issues, and no answers have come forth. The list came out last May, it's now Nov 2012, 18 months later. Again, nothing. Sheer incompetence.

So in the end, you Mesaba pilots will get your way, and Pinnacle pilots (especially the CRJ-900) will be double-screwed.

When the 200 fleet is drawn down as per the delta pilot contract I am sure since the 200's are fully merged it will be a ratio even though the newest of the 200's which will most likely be the only ones remaining on property were. Pre merger MESABA. At that time there will be a lot more to worry about than just 95 positions. 1000 positions will be at risk unless we get the 70 new planes from the delta pilot contract.

It doesn't matter about the bases or who bought what CRJ-200s. It has to be the ratios, as his awards states. To the T. 541 Captains must be Pinnacle, 100 must be Mesaba. In the event that it can't be, then a ratio of 541:100 must be used until reaching a minimum of 541 and 100 respectively.

Stop making up things about "adjusting" numbers because a CRJ-900 is being parked or -200 being parked. There is no adjustment according to Bloch for jet reductions. Only ratio numbers that are ratioed down!

If we are bought by delta- I will plan on the worst case scenario as the last time that happened I lost a great company (MESABA), lost seniority, lost pass benefits, got worse work rules, my flow, a possible displacement, downgrade, and I can only imagine what could be worse- oh yeah- a new flow? Awesome before I had 200 in front of me and now I would have a 1000. Just peachy.

Delta won't be buying Pinnacle, and I definitely don't see a flow coming, considering how quickly they (mgt and DALPA) wanted to end the Mesaba and Compass flows.

 

[Flyer1015]

This is what I'm referencing:

For a period of five years beginning with the submission of
the Integrated Seniority List, no Pinnacle pilot may be
awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position, and no
pre-merger Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a
Saab-340 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain
129 Saab-340 captains. No pre-merger Mesaba pilot may be
awarded or displaced to a Saab-340 captain position unless
Colgan pilots maintain 152 Saab-340 captains. Minimum
captain positions for Mesaba pilots will be permanently
reduced by an equal amount for any reductions in Saab
Captain positions in Minneapolis, Memphis, Detroit and
New York. Minimum captain positions for Colgan pilots will
be permanently reduced by an amount equal to any
reductions in Washington-Dulles, Boston, Charleston and​

Houston.

MY interpretation of that was that no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded a Saab captain position, and no Colgan pilot may be awarded a Saab captain position, unless Mesaba maintains xxx...

MY interpretation was that what the above is saying is that Pinnacle and Colgan pilots cannot get any Captain seats on the Saab until Mesaba maintains at least xxx......

Instead, what YOU Mesaba and Colgan pilots argued (and WON - because Hunta was nowhere to be seen and did not fight for 9E)............ you guys argued that the sentence reads "no Pinnacle pilot may be awarded Saab Captain, and..." and that somehow that means 9E can't get ANY Saab captain positions.

And that's what happened. We had 2007 DOH Captains get downgraded while Colgan got their May 2010 DOH precious upgrades on the Saab.


In that above, you Mesaba people made a very fine point to exclude Pinnacle pilots from Saab captain positions BASED ON EXACT WORDING BY BLOCH.

So why is EXACT WORDING BY BLOCH not applying to the CRJ-900 ratios?

Amazing how when the tables turn, Mesaba is scrambling in their corners and DEMANDING that the Saab reduction methodology be applied to the jet reductions, EVEN THOUGH BLOCH MADE NO EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS OR RULING ON JET REDUCTIONS.

You're trying to have cake and eat it too. I hope 9E gets what's FAIR, which is a ratio of 279:95 because there is no explicit words from Bloch regarding reducing Pinnacle protected Captain positions. But until Hunta steps down and someone much better steps in, I fully expect Mesaba to win this.

 

[Flyer1015]

9E ATL pilots, make sure you get some accountability from the people who are supposed to represent you. If you don't, the mentality displayed by xjhawk will most likely prevail, and you will be screwed.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

How's that contract over at VA? Sheesh, you left, myob! You're as bad as PCL_128 bragging he'll still pay ALPA dues after SWA takes over!

 

[1.3XVso]

Flyer just give it up. Explaining to these idiottts is like arguing with a liberal (smarta$$). Honestly with your IQ and intellectual brain you should have volunteer and represent the pilot group. You have showed and explain the truth. It's obvious they can't handle it and find a way to cheap shot you. It's funny how now they are comparing you to pcl128! Lol there running out of things to throw at you!

 

[FOrever85]

How long did it take you to write all this crap? Doesn't it bother you how much time and energy you waste on a company you don't work for?

Second, why would anyone at Pinnacle try and undo this at this point. They have nothing to gain and even more to lose.
But I'm bored so I'll play along;

Let's say they throw the Bloch award out. (which they aren't going to do because they have a million other things to do) Let's take a minute and see what would happen.
1) Alpa wastes thousands of dollars re-doing the list (eating steak diners, staying in nice hotels, etc), and it distracts them from getting a decent new contract, or should I say "less screwed" in bankruptcy
2) They find another arbitrator and spend another couple of months making a new one.
Now, What do you think Colgan and Pinnacle are going to look like in a couple of months when they do the new list?
Colgan is gone, 9e 900's gone, x number of 200's (probably gone)

Now where do you think Pinnacle guys are gonna end up in this new list? Oh, and by the way look who is running the MEC now.

Use your brain! As bad as some 9e guys got it last time, this would be way worse.
But it is all moot because they aren't going to do anything about it!

Now go put your time and energy into making your airline better.

 

[mesaba13]

I agree that Bloch does not mention a jet fleet reductions but he states this: "no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be AWARDED or DISPLACED to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."

I don't see how a pre-merger 9E pilot will be able to move to a 900 CA position under the above wording by Bloch unless Mesaba is at or over 279. By the same reasoning a pre-merger Mesaba pilot that is on a 200 now, will not be able to go to a 900 CA spot because 9E is going well below 95. "no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions."


The ratio will come into play when attrition or further 900 fleet reduction on the pre-merger Mesaba 900 occurs and takes us below 279 positions. Now BOTH groups are below the quotas and awards/displacements would be by ratio 279:95. So if Mesaba is at 250 and 9E is at 0, the 29 positions would be awarded by the ratio. I am not sure how many numbers above 279 we are at now, but it seems with this language that we will go below it soon and from here on in new movements will be a ratio.

If you work it the other way and say that Delta decided to pull all the XJ
900's and keep ATL, the 9E ATL guys would have been protected. As the XJ spots are reduced, no displacements or awards to ATL could occur unless ATL maintained 95 premerger 9E positions. Now, if ATL is later shrunk and goes below 95 then both groups would be below the 279 and 95 and the ratio would take effect.

The part that I am sure seems unfair to the 9E group is that 100% of the
900's leaving, left from a base that is almost all 9E. If 16 planes were pulled that said XJ on the tail, the pain would be spread a little more evenly and wouldn't impact one group so heavily.

 

[mesaba13]

"I don't see how a pre-merger 9E pilot will be able to move to a 900 CA position under the above wording by Bloch unless Mesaba is at or over 279"

This was partly misleading because some Senior premerger 9E pilots will end up "moving" from ATL CA into junior pre-merger 9E 900 CA positions in MSP, DTW, MEM. Albeit, only to the point where XJ stays above 279. So the previous posts that say 9E will end up with zero 900 CA positions are incorrect.

 

[Flyer1015]

mesaba13 gets it. FOforever85, you should be pushing to have someone dedicated and knowledgeable in addressing issues that affect an airline. If I was on the merger committee, things would have gone differently. And I certainly wouldn't have ignored a letter by Pat who desperately needs to know what to do about the Bloch quotas.

1.3xVs, you're right. I do hope they recall and replace those who are incompetent and love spending 9E union dues. But there's no point arguing with people over all this stuff.

 

[gojo]

Flyer just give it up. Explaining to these idiottts is like arguing with a liberal (smarta$$). Honestly with your IQ and intellectual brain you should have volunteer and represent the pilot group. You have showed and explain the truth. It's obvious they can't handle it and find a way to cheap shot you. It's funny how now they are comparing you to pcl128! Lol there running out of things to throw at you!

Whatever!!! You guys should put your money where your mouth is. It's so easy to complain about things. Ever thought about being part of the solution? Have you ever tried to do the job that those guys do? If I remember right, both of you were plenty vocal about wanting to bend over the Mesaba and Colgan pilot groups. It seems that your Hunter union rep was just trying to give you what you wanted. Hey, I don't like him either. But the bullys don't always get their way. And now it is what it is. Get over it. Now all three pilot groups have lost airplanes and captain slots, and that's something that many said would probably happen over two years ago. I didn't think it would be 900's though

 

[Flyer1015]

Whatever!!! You guys should put your money where your mouth is. It's so easy to complain about things. Ever thought about being part of the solution? Have you ever tried to do the job that those guys do? If I remember right, both of you were plenty vocal about wanting to bend over the Mesaba and Colgan pilot groups. It seems that your Hunter union rep was just trying to give you what you wanted. Hey, I don't like him either. But the bullys don't always get their way. And now it is what it is. Get over it. Now all three pilot groups have lost airplanes and captain slots, and that's something that many said would probably happen over two years ago. I didn't think it would be 900's though

If there was a way to resurrect the old airlinkpilots forum, and search my post history, you will see I was always against a full outright staple for Colgan. In fact, I started a thread back then saying how relative would hurt us and that Colgan would make out like kings, and so that DOH would do us better. The merger committee got my thread shutdown, like some kinda gag order. Hunta fought for only the top brass. He completely attempted to screw Colgan. Hunta's worst fear was the -900 group becoming it's own category, and that's exactly what happened. The 9E committee never polled the pilot group on what they wanted. I volunteered years ago after my 1st year. They held the position out for one of their own boys in their club.