Pinnacle 1113 ruling set for this Thursday

[i fly boxes]

Place your bets, last minute TA? Judge in favor of the company or the union?
I predict the deadline will get extended and we will know nothing Thursday

 

[SoberIrishman]

Place your bets, last minute TA? Judge in favor of the company or the union?
I predict the deadline will get extended and we will know nothing Thursday

If that happens, I predict chapter 7 is inevitable.

 

[xjhawk]

..........?

 

[mesaba13]

Judge will not them throw out the contract yet, but will if the company starts to come off the 60 million number and bargains in good faith.

 

[SplitBar]

Good luck guys! XJ pilots won this fight in 2006 and will hopefully prevail again this time.

 

[1.3XVso]

Asked J.hunt a.

 

[Flyer1015]

"Forgot" to read the letter hahahahaaaaaa

Certainly didn't forget to load up $12,000 worth of lodging/meal expenses during the SLI negotiations (when the other committees had about $4-6k worth), but "forgot" to read the letter for a solution to the -900 ATL displacements and minimum Captain position numbers for the -200? Why you boys haven't recalled them out of their positions is astounding.

 

[i fly boxes]

If I Interpret that letter correctly, lets say we go down to 41 900s In a worst case scenario, does that mean we would only have Mesaba captains left and every single pinnacle captain would be downgraded?

 

[Flyer1015]

If I Interpret that letter correctly, lets say we go down to 41 900s In a worst case scenario, does that mean we would only have Mesaba captains left and every single pinnacle captain would be downgraded?

Excellent question. Something that should have been asked and answered a long time ago. Too busy eating steaks on union dime. Show me da money dolla dolla bling bling

 

[1.3XVso]

If I Interpret that letter correctly, lets say we go down to 41 900s In a worst case scenario, does that mean we would only have Mesaba captains left and every single pinnacle captain would be downgraded?

Ask jhunta he was trying to get the arbitrator to change the language on the Bloch award to avoid the downgrade.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

If I Interpret that letter correctly, lets say we go down to 41 900s In a worst case scenario, does that mean we would only have Mesaba captains left and every single pinnacle captain would be downgraded?

Based on Bloch's ruling of basically the exact same scenario of the Saabs, yes that would be the situation, though if the Mesaba fence numbers are met for 900 captains, anything over that would be based on most senior company wide.

 

[mesaba13]

Wouldn't they get a ratio based on the fact that they brought 16 900 to the table? I thought it was a 3-1 so they would get about 60 jobs?

 

[e=mc2]

ALPO will fold like a cheap suit Thursday on the steps of the courthouse. It is what the XJ leadership does best.
Hunta is just tacking to the prevailing wind, all 9E pilot overboard to save the XJ staffing model.

 

[gojo]

ALPO will fold like a cheap suit Thursday on the steps of the courthouse. It is what the XJ leadership does best.
Hunta is just tacking to the prevailing wind, all 9E pilot overboard to save the XJ staffing model.

How do you guys come up with some of this stuff. Is it your basic belief in life that everyone is jacked up but you?

 

[mesaba13]

anyone have a link to the bloch award

 

[Flyer1015]

He was asked to step down and he didn't. What an atrocity. He serves you, the pilot group, not the other way around. All those hotel bills and filet mignons totaling $12,000 total have been expensed to the union so they come out of your dues. I'm really surprised no one cares.

I'm surprised the pilot group let him get away without demanding getting clarification from Bloch. These people get bought off trips from YOUR DUES MONEY! Demand accountability!!! What have they been doing this time when their trips are removed with pay and thrown on a reserve? Where are the answers to those 2 questions asked by the Planning of Manpower? Recall these people and get someone who will actually fight and get answers from Bloch, and give answers to the planner of manpower at 9E. Hunta has failed you. He failed the day his group proposed a Colgan staple, and didn't even have the guts to tell the 9E pilot group what they proposed, until the Colgan committee leaked it. Classic!

 

[DoinTime]

He was asked to step down and he didn't. What an atrocity. He serves you, the pilot group, not the other way around. All those hotel bills and filet mignons totaling $12,000 total have been expensed to the union so they come out of your dues. I'm really surprised no one cares.

I'm surprised the pilot group let him get away without demanding getting clarification from Bloch. These people get bought off trips from YOUR DUES MONEY! Demand accountability!!! What have they been doing this time when their trips are removed with pay and thrown on a reserve? Where are the answers to those 2 questions asked by the Planning of Manpower? Recall these people and get someone who will actually fight and get answers from Bloch, and give answers to the planner of manpower at 9E. Hunta has failed you. He failed the day his group proposed a Colgan staple, and didn't even have the guts to tell the 9E pilot group what they proposed, until the Colgan committee leaked it. Classic!

I thought you were going to go away?

 

[1.3XVso]

He was asked to step down and he didn't. What an atrocity. He serves you, the pilot group, not the other way around. All those hotel bills and filet mignons totaling $12,000 total have been expensed to the union so they come out of your dues. I'm really surprised no one cares.

I'm surprised the pilot group let him get away without demanding getting clarification from Bloch. These people get bought off trips from YOUR DUES MONEY! Demand accountability!!! What have they been doing this time when their trips are removed with pay and thrown on a reserve? Where are the answers to those 2 questions asked by the Planning of Manpower? Recall these people and get someone who will actually fight and get answers from Bloch, and give answers to the planner of manpower at 9E. Hunta has failed you. He failed the day his group proposed a Colgan staple, and didn't even have the guts to tell the 9E pilot group what they proposed, until the Colgan committee leaked it. Classic!

Took me 6 years to realize these clowns were milking the system. Flyer prepare for the huntacrons ( hunters cronies) to attack. Just like Dog********************time I mean dointime.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Excellent question. Something that should have been asked and answered a long time ago. Too busy eating steaks on union dime. Show me da money dolla dolla bling bling

hahaha ...

 

[i fly boxes]

http://finance-commerce.com/2012/11/pinnacle-has-2-weeks-to-decide-on-eagan-lease/
Interesting article. Myself I think that Pinnacle will not renew the lease in Eagan. They will then shortly after not renew the lease in memphis. Then they will move the headquarters to part of the old NWA headquarters and they will also start using simulators in CVG because that is what Delta will tell them to do. If Delta has stuff sitting around not being used and they are driving this entire bankruptcy, then they will tell pinnacle exactly what to do.

 

[A-10_JetMech]

Any bets this 1113 ruling gets delayed a few more weeks until the Delta fleet announcement in December? They will probably say they have 76 seaters ordered and that they will park MANY 200's even though we know this already. Then the judge will rule for the company and they will impose so they get the jets. No coincidence this is why they extended the re-organization deadline to Dec. 30th with Delta.

 

[SEVEN]

As I stated 2 months ago: New HQ will end up at the old NATCO...Delta will purchase 9E....9E will operate the 717's.

 

[1.3XVso]

As I stated 2 months ago: New HQ will end up at the old NATCO...Delta will purchase 9E....9E will operate the 717's.

Keep dreaming sevendust.

 

[Flyer1015]

How are you people okay with all this?! ESPECIALLY you ATL folks. You should be outraged at the complete lack of motivation of the 9E merger committee, their sheer incompetence, and the fact that they did not seek any clarification from Bloch and get an answer back. The list came out last Summer. It's been over one year. You ATL people are about to be seriously affected by the upcoming displacement. In the Bloch award, he used the Saab reduction in his quotas but did NOT for the jets because no jets were being parked. Now the Mesaba and Colgan committees will say that because 9E is losing its -900s, they do not have the protected 95 Captain seats. Where's your 9E committee's answer to this? Why did they not get an answer from Bloch in nearly 18 months? Sheer incompetence! ATL pilots, your only hope is that the 95 protected Captain seats is kept as a ratio (like 362:95, Mesaba to Pinnacle), because your worst case scenario right now is losing all 95 protected Captain seats on the -900. The VP of Crew Manning has asked 2 very basic questions, and they are time critical. The 9E committee "forgot" all about that letter, is is a clear failure to represent. And to add insult to injury he refuses to step down when asked. The life of being bought off trips and doing whatever you want on those paid union days with ZERO accountability is just too easy a life. The all expense paid trips to Outback Steakhouse to have the finest steak, they wouldn't give that up. For what? Actually working and trying to get an answer from Bloch? Screw that. "Waiter, can I get another beer with this filet mignon?"

 

[gojo]

How are you people okay with all this?! ESPECIALLY you ATL folks. You should be outraged at the complete lack of motivation of the 9E merger committee, their sheer incompetence, and the fact that they did not seek any clarification from Bloch and get an answer back. The list came out last Summer. It's been over one year. You ATL people are about to be seriously affected by the upcoming displacement. In the Bloch award, he used the Saab reduction in his quotas but did NOT for the jets because no jets were being parked. Now the Mesaba and Colgan committees will say that because 9E is losing its -900s, they do not have the protected 95 Captain seats. Where's your 9E committee's answer to this? Why did they not get an answer from Bloch in nearly 18 months? Sheer incompetence! ATL pilots, your only hope is that the 95 protected Captain seats is kept as a ratio (like 362:95, Mesaba to Pinnacle), because your worst case scenario right now is losing all 95 protected Captain seats on the -900. The VP of Crew Manning has asked 2 very basic questions, and they are time critical. The 9E committee "forgot" all about that letter, is is a clear failure to represent. And to add insult to injury he refuses to step down when asked. The life of being bought off trips and doing whatever you want on those paid union days with ZERO accountability is just too easy a life. The all expense paid trips to Outback Steakhouse to have the finest steak, they wouldn't give that up. For what? Actually working and trying to get an answer from Bloch? Screw that. "Waiter, can I get another beer with this filet mignon?"

Is it fair to say that they're working on a lot of things right now. And if the block award is changed for one aircraft leaving (9E 900's) shouldn't the whole award be revised? All the props are gone also

 

[Flyer1015]

Is it fair to say that they're working on a lot of things right now.

Yeah right. The list came out last summer 2011. It's now Nov 2012, a year and a half later and the 9E committee still didn't get any answers or clarifications from Bloch. They did, however, manage to rack up $12,000 in expenses in lodging and meals, whereas the Mesaba and Colgan committees only had $5,000-$6000 each. They double-outspent than their counterparts at Mesaba and Colgan.

And if the block award is changed for one aircraft leaving (9E 900's) shouldn't the whole award be revised? All the props are gone also

No. I just said, leave it alone. The Bloch award as of right now makes no adjustments for ANY jet leaving. So no matter what happens, 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 should be Pinnacle and 100 should be Mesaba. On the CRJ-900, same thing, quota of 372 Mesaba and 95 Pinnacle. This should be the case REGARDLESS of which jet is parked, the ratios (541:100 for the CRJ-200 and 372:95 for the CRJ-900) need to be maintained. This is because the Bloch award did NOT account for any jet leaving. To say anything otherwise is directly contradicting the Bloch award.

Now one could argue that it was known the Mesaba Saabs were leaving, and Bloch issued his award with a declining protection of Captain seats as the Saabs left. True. But the same was not done for jets, so no amount of conjecture or "well, he must have also meant it for the jets" should change that.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. As of right now, regardless of what happens, Bloch award allows 541 protected Pinnacle Captains on the CRJ-200 and 95 protected Captains on the CRJ-900. Of course, the Mesaba and Colgan committees will disagree and in the end, the 9E committee will yet again be nowhere to be seen, and the 9E pilot group will lose out again and get screwed once more.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Yeah right. The list came out last summer 2011. It's now Nov 2012, a year and a half later and the 9E committee still didn't get any answers or clarifications from Bloch. They did, however, manage to rack up $12,000 in expenses in lodging and meals, whereas the Mesaba and Colgan committees only had $5,000-$6000 each. They double-outspent than their counterparts at Mesaba and Colgan.


No. I just said, leave it alone. The Bloch award as of right now makes no adjustments for ANY jet leaving. So no matter what happens, 541 Captains on the CRJ-200 should be Pinnacle and 100 should be Mesaba. On the CRJ-900, same thing, quota of 372 Mesaba and 95 Pinnacle. This should be the case REGARDLESS of which jet is parked, the ratios (541:100 for the CRJ-200 and 372:95 for the CRJ-900) need to be maintained. This is because the Bloch award did NOT account for any jet leaving. To say anything otherwise is directly contradicting the Bloch award.

Now one could argue that it was known the Mesaba Saabs were leaving, and Bloch issued his award with a declining protection of Captain seats as the Saabs left. True. But the same was not done for jets, so no amount of conjecture or "well, he must have also meant it for the jets" should change that.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. As of right now, regardless of what happens, Bloch award allows 541 protected Pinnacle Captains on the CRJ-200 and 95 protected Captains on the CRJ-900. Of course, the Mesaba and Colgan committees will disagree and in the end, the 9E committee will yet again be nowhere to be seen, and the 9E pilot group will lose out again and get screwed once more.

Flyer, you hit the nail on the head man.

 

[xjhawk]

Flyer. Worry about your company and family. Stop fueling the fire here. Get your numbers right too. The 900's in ATL are specifically tied to the 95 positions for 9e. Same as Bloch had to the Saab fleets at MESABA. When they draw down, so do the slot numbers. When the 200 fleet is drawn down as per the delta pilot contract I am sure since the 200's are fully merged it will be a ratio even though the newest of the 200's which will most likely be the only ones remaining on property were. Pre merger MESABA. At that time there will be a lot more to worry about than just 95 positions. 1000 positions will be at risk unless we get the 70 new planes from the delta pilot contract.

If we are bought by delta- I will plan on the worst case scenario as the last time that happened I lost a great company (MESABA), lost seniority, lost pass benefits, got worse work rules, my flow, a possible displacement, downgrade, and I can only imagine what could be worse- oh yeah- a new flow? Awesome before I had 200 in front of me and now I would have a 1000. Just peachy.

 

[Flyer1015]

double post

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer. Worry about your company and family. Stop fueling the fire here. Get your numbers right too. The 900's in ATL are specifically tied to the 95 positions for 9e. Same as Bloch had to the Saab fleets at MESABA. When they draw down, so do the slot numbers.

That right there is the Mesaba fantasy. You couldn't be more wrong. Read the award again, NOWHERE does it mention anything about jet fleet reductions. Bloch did not account or direct for jet fleet reductions. Here is what he said:

"4. For a period of five years beginning with submission of the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions. In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority.
"

It doesn't matter where the CRJ-900s are or where they came from. Mesaba must maintain 279 Captain positions and Pinnacle must maintain 95 Captain positions on the -900. PERIOD. That above paragraph does not say anything about jet fleet reduction. NOTE the bold part. In the event both groups have less than the ratio numbers, then the 279:95 is used as a ratio until the minimum is reached.

What YOU are saying about redacting or eliminating the 95 CRJ-900 positions goes against what Bloch has published.

You mention the Saabs. Yes, but the Saab case was SPECIFICALLY dealt by Bloch. He made clear instructions on the wind-down of Saab flying, and how the numbers would go down to zero.

Again, Bloch has not given any direction on jet fleet reductions, and has NOT tied ANY CRJ-900 positions to what base they came from or what airline they were.

The wording is clear. NO pilot may be awarded or displaced unless Mesaba maintains 279 and Pinnacle maintains 95. NO mention of ANY jet reductions or base closings. So stop making assumptions that the Saab case applies, because it does NOT.

Speaking of the Saabs, it's amazing that you and your Mesaba colleagues are NOW willingly trying to bend Bloch's award to suit your favor, by stating that the Pinnacle 95 protected number should go to zero. Amazing. Gee, remember when the Bloch award first came out, and Bloch said no Mesaba pilot may be awarded a Saab Captain position unless Colgan maintains XX captain seats, and no Colgan pilot may be awarded a Saab Captain seat unless Mesaba maintains XX Captain seats? THEY USED THAT PARAGRAPH TO KEEP ALL PINNACLE PILOTS OUT OF SAAB CAPTAIN SEATS, PERMANENTLY FOR 5 YEARS!

So how is it you Mesaba folks followed Bloch's award "to the T" and now are willing to bend it to suit your own needs?!

Bloch has made it clear:

CRJ-900s, Mesaba must maintain 279 and Pinnacle 95. IN THE EVENT THAT THEY GO BELOW, then a 279:95 ratio is to be used. There is no language for jet fleet reduction, so get that in your head. It was ONLY for the Saabs, and he worded it ONLY for the Saabs.


All that having been said, Mesaba will come out the winner because 9E's merger committee is incompetent. They failed the 9E group for the DOH issue to Bloch, in the email chain that was leaked, arbitrator Bloch clearly emailed and asked, "John, can you please clear this up for me?" So it showed that Bloch had no clue and was totally caught off guard with the 9E DOH versus class date issue. They failed to represent 9E Pilots fairly at that point. Now, they haven't been in touch with Bloch to clarify the issues, and no answers have come forth. The list came out last May, it's now Nov 2012, 18 months later. Again, nothing. Sheer incompetence.

So in the end, you Mesaba pilots will get your way, and Pinnacle pilots (especially the CRJ-900) will be double-screwed.

When the 200 fleet is drawn down as per the delta pilot contract I am sure since the 200's are fully merged it will be a ratio even though the newest of the 200's which will most likely be the only ones remaining on property were. Pre merger MESABA. At that time there will be a lot more to worry about than just 95 positions. 1000 positions will be at risk unless we get the 70 new planes from the delta pilot contract.

It doesn't matter about the bases or who bought what CRJ-200s. It has to be the ratios, as his awards states. To the T. 541 Captains must be Pinnacle, 100 must be Mesaba. In the event that it can't be, then a ratio of 541:100 must be used until reaching a minimum of 541 and 100 respectively.

Stop making up things about "adjusting" numbers because a CRJ-900 is being parked or -200 being parked. There is no adjustment according to Bloch for jet reductions. Only ratio numbers that are ratioed down!

If we are bought by delta- I will plan on the worst case scenario as the last time that happened I lost a great company (MESABA), lost seniority, lost pass benefits, got worse work rules, my flow, a possible displacement, downgrade, and I can only imagine what could be worse- oh yeah- a new flow? Awesome before I had 200 in front of me and now I would have a 1000. Just peachy.

Delta won't be buying Pinnacle, and I definitely don't see a flow coming, considering how quickly they (mgt and DALPA) wanted to end the Mesaba and Compass flows.