"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[ASA_Aviator]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Would you have the nerve to tell an Eagle, Horizon, Comair FO that they are currently in a "stepping stone" position? I have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years, or basically until they are close to if not over 40 years of age. All of the FO,s at the 3 airlines I have mentioned all had the reasonable expectation of no more that a 3 year upgrade, because they were all hired pre 9-11. So you are basically telling these folks they have no right to earn a livable wage until they are 40? You say things are as they were in 82-92-and 2002? WHAT??? After 82 and 92, things improved, but we are still waiting for the 2002 conditions to improve are we not? When did we ever have any sort of movement in this industry, especially at mainline, since 2002? There were glimmers in 2006 and 2007, but that was mostly due to the regionals taking more and more mainline flying with larger and larger aircraft. Which is why the RJ carriers need to provide a livable wage for all equipment and seats. Management has had a filed day since 2001. They have gotten back their B scale pilot wages by transferring an enormous amount of flying to the scumbag RJ carriers.

The pukes in management have told us that they can no longer afford to provide free medical coverage, so what happens, we are charged 1500-3000 a year for the privilege now! Then they say they can no longer afford our pensions, and what happens, pensions that were counted on after a lifetime of service are ended. Now these low life criminal crooks in management say they can no longer afford 401K matches and that will soon end. WTF people!! Wake up? When are we going to say enough is enough? I can guarantee you the despicable sob's in management have free medical coverage, plus a pension, plus the ability to bail on the company and go elsewhere for more money right of the bat! Pilots sure as hell can't!

I can only speak for ASA, but 2nd year FOs at ASA ($35,000 to $37,000) earn more than the per capita personal income in Georgia, and the entire US, for that matter. That, my friend, is a livable wage, unless you think the average person in the US isn't living. I assure you, many people in this country get by with kids, etc. on less than that. I'm not clear on what you think you deserve? (The FOs top out at year 7, $43,000 to $46,000, given 1000 hours per year credit.) That seems to be a respectable sum.

Given the current economic environment, we all should be happy we have good paying jobs, and we should take care of those jobs by running a safe, efficient operation. We also should have respect for our fellow pilots who, for no other reason than sheer bad timing, have been furloughed. Most of them would love to have our jobs right now, and are sickened that we are bickering about pay when they are bartending, doing odd jobs, or flight instructing to make ends meet.

Quoted below from some random economic website: (There may be more recent data out there, but I'm too tired to look for it.)

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, in 2001, Georgia had a per capita personal income (PCPI) of $28,523 which ranked 27th in the United States (including the District of Columbia) and was 94% of the national average, $30,413. The 2001 PCPI reflected an increase of 1.5% from 2000 compared to the national change of 2.2%. In 2001, Georgia had a total personal income (TPI) of $239,753,556,000 which ranked 11th in the United States and accounted for 2.8% of the national total. The 2001 TPI reflected an increase of 3.6% from 2000 compared to the national change of 3.3%.

 

[yellowfever]

I give up.

No you didn't....do you honestly think a regional FO makes a respectable income?

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h08a.html

I'm sure most of them did not pursue an aviation career for an average income.

 

[pilotyip]

A moment of truth

I can only speak for ASA, but 2nd year FOs at ASA ($35,000 to $37,000) earn more than the per capita personal income in Georgia, and the entire US, for that matter. That, my friend, is a livable wage, unless you think the average person in the US isn't living. I assure you, many people in this country get by with kids, etc. on less than that. I'm not clear on what you think you deserve? (The FOs top out at year 7, $43,000 to $46,000, given 1000 hours per year credit.) That seems to be a respectable sum.

Given the current economic environment, we all should be happy we have good paying jobs, and we should take care of those jobs by running a safe, efficient operation. We also should have respect for our fellow pilots who, for no other reason than sheer bad timing, have been furloughed. Most of them would love to have our jobs right now, and are sickened that we are bickering about pay when they are bartending, doing odd jobs, or flight instructing to make ends meet.

Quoted below from some random economic website: (There may be more recent data out there, but I'm too tired to look for it.)
According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, in 2001, Georgia had a per capita personal income (PCPI) of $28,523 which ranked 27th in the United States (including the District of Columbia) and was 94% of the national average, $30,413. The 2001 PCPI reflected an increase of 1.5% from 2000 compared to the national change of 2.2%. In 2001, Georgia had a total personal income (TPI) of $239,753,556,000 which ranked 11th in the United States and accounted for 2.8% of the national total. The 2001 TPI reflected an increase of 3.6% from 2000 compared to the national change of 3.3%.

A moment of truth and a dose of reality, how refreshing on the FI winer board. BTW "have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years" The 100K to get your Comm/MEL/Inst license is way too much to pay for an entry level job. Because this job does not require a college education

 

[ASA_Aviator]

No you didn't....do you honestly think a regional FO makes a respectable income?

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h08a.html

I'm sure most of them did not pursue an aviation career for an average income.

Yes, I think it is respectable. It is what the market bears, and not even the open market, but a union inflated artificial market. Didn't you negotiate your wages, even if by proxy?

Most didn't get hired to be career first officers either, so they are expecting better pay, and will get it when they upgrade. I bet even the first officer pay is pretty high relative to other jobs that don't require a college degree.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

No you didn't....do you honestly think a regional FO makes a respectable income?

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/histinc/h08a.html

I'm sure most of them did not pursue an aviation career for an average income.

By the way, those tables represent household income, which is not the same as an individual's income. The data you linked to represents 2 incomes in many cases, and is misleading. Do you watch Fox News?

 

[Kalifornia]

A moment of truth and a dose of reality, how refreshing on the FI winer board. BTW "have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years" The 100K to get your Comm/MEL/Inst license is way too much to pay for an entry level job. Because this job does not require a college education

Not the least bit surprised you don't have a college degree. It takes a real uneducated yokel to come on here and spew your idea that pilots should accept poverty wages and live on flying happiness thus spreading the idea of shiny jet syndrome. What's your goal here? You along with ASA clown will be whistling dixie this idea up until the next Skybus low balls your very position. Even the lowest scoring on the wonderlic test NFL player isn't dumb enough to go spouting off how he just enjoys football and would gladly accept Mcdonalds manager wages. Oh, but he's in the spotlight and makes national news if he screws up. Oh gee, pilots also make national news and even the lead story of the international news networks as a "regional" pilot can now take up 100 people down with them with a critical error. But you go on and educate the masses and earn that dishonorary degree from the school of common sense, professional pride, and personal finances.

 

[Browntothebone]

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Would you have the nerve to tell an Eagle, Horizon, Comair FO that they are currently in a "stepping stone" position? I have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years, or basically until they are close to if not over 40 years of age. All of the FO,s at the 3 airlines I have mentioned all had the reasonable expectation of no more that a 3 year upgrade, because they were all hired pre 9-11. So you are basically telling these folks they have no right to earn a livable wage until they are 40? You say things are as they were in 82-92-and 2002? WHAT??? After 82 and 92, things improved, but we are still waiting for the 2002 conditions to improve are we not? When did we ever have any sort of movement in this industry, especially at mainline, since 2002? There were glimmers in 2006 and 2007, but that was mostly due to the regionals taking more and more mainline flying with larger and larger aircraft. Which is why the RJ carriers need to provide a livable wage for all equipment and seats. Management has had a filed day since 2001. They have gotten back their B scale pilot wages by transferring an enormous amount of flying to the scumbag RJ carriers.

The pukes in management have told us that they can no longer afford to provide free medical coverage, so what happens, we are charged 1500-3000 a year for the privilege now! Then they say they can no longer afford our pensions, and what happens, pensions that were counted on after a lifetime of service are ended. Now these low life criminal crooks in management say they can no longer afford 401K matches and that will soon end. WTF people!! Wake up? When are we going to say enough is enough? I can guarantee you the despicable sob's in management have free medical coverage, plus a pension, plus the ability to bail on the company and go elsewhere for more money right of the bat! Pilots sure as hell can't!

Just glad my segment is immune to the troubles you describe.

 

[Browntothebone]

A moment of truth and a dose of reality, how refreshing on the FI winer board. BTW "have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years" The 100K to get your Comm/MEL/Inst license is way too much to pay for an entry level job. Because this job does not require a college education

Here is the harsh reality for todays regional pilots.

YIP is 100% correct. Regional pilots have a grossly exagerrated sense of self worth. They don't realise that they are in an ENTRY LEVEL job that is not meant to be a career position. Being an airline pilot does not need college level education do perform safely and competently. The regional guys who spent big buck on there "academy" flight training and "harvard of the skies" education are just resentful when they realise that they are really not worth more than $16-25K a year that they make. The pay they recieve is exactly where it should be for an entry level job. They should quit bitchin and put there time in, get there 1000 TPIC and go to the majors like they are supposed to do and quit trying to make the regionals a career position. It's not supposed to be one and will never be one. You guys are not as special as you think and were told by your "academys" that you are.

 

[pilotyip]

Not the least bit surprised you don't have a college degree. It takes a real uneducated yokel to come on here and spew your idea that pilots should accept poverty wages and live on flying happiness thus spreading the idea of shiny jet syndrome. .

Hi kid , new in town, everyone of the old timers knows I have a couple college degrees, they have done nothing for my flying career. I find some support here that for some flying is not a bad job. Name calling is in the highest traditions of FI's long standing posting.

 

[pilotyip]

Omg!

Here is the harsh reality for todays regional pilots.

YIP is 100% correct. Regional pilots have a grossly exagerrated sense of self worth. They don't realise that they are in an ENTRY LEVEL job that is not meant to be a career position. Being an airline pilot does not need college level education do perform safely and competently. The regional guys who spent big buck on there "academy" flight training and "harvard of the skies" education are just resentful when they realise that they are really not worth more than $16-25K a year that they make. The pay they recieve is exactly where it should be for an entry level job. They should quit bitchin and put there time in, get there 1000 TPIC and go to the majors like they are supposed to do and quit trying to make the regionals a career position. It's not supposed to be one and will never be one. You guys are not as special as you think and were told by your "academys" that you are.

OMG, BTTB is saying my post had some touch of reality?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

ASAAviator-

You should include the cost to get that slightly above national average job. The flight training required to get there would cost at least $30,000 today (I assume). College would go on top of that, but is not required so I think we do not need to include that in the analysis. $35k - $37k is not as great as you represent it when you include the cost to get there...don't you agree?

Brown2thebone-

Putting your time in is one of the reasons we are in the current situation. All pilots should be able to put their time in while making a good wage.

PS. I paid less than $3000 per year for my undergraduate education; it was the flight training that got expensive...$25k.

 

[yellowfever]

By the way, those tables represent household income, which is not the same as an individual's income. The data you linked to represents 2 incomes in many cases, and is misleading. Do you watch Fox News?

I know what it represents, I also know I value my skill set more than you do.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

ASAAviator-

You should include the cost to get that slightly above national average job. The flight training required to get there would cost at least $30,000 today (I assume). College would go on top of that, but is not required so I think we do not need to include that in the analysis. $35k - $37k is not as great as you represent it when you include the cost to get there...don't you agree?

I would agree if $35k to $37k was the final amount you would earn at a regional, but it isn't. Eventually, you upgrade to captain. Sure, at some regionals that may take 10 years, but that's all the more reason to choose where you apply carefully (and have some good luck).

The first year is the only year that I would agree that we are underpaid, but that is the union's fault, not the industry. They don't get dues from the first year people, so they sacrifice that years salary for higher pay later when they get the dues. It's a simple business decision on their part, which most pilots go along with because they like making more money as a senior FO. It is a zero sum game guys. If the new hires make $30/hr the first year, that is coming out of someone's pay somewhere else up the ladder.

Come on guys, we have been arguing and beating this dead horse for a while now. We are going to just have to disagree on this one.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I know what it represents, I also know I value my skill set more than you do.

Go to a major, and you will someday be appropriately compensated for your "skill." I value my skills, but that doesn't mean that I'm not rational about our industry, and my job. I'm a regional FO. Anyone with $60,000, 200 hrs, and a pulse can replace me. Maybe they don't have the experience I have, but the company doesn't care about that as much as they act like they do. They just want the warm body, as long as it meets the minimum standard every 6 months, and shows up to work most of the time.

Some of you really have let this job go to your heads. You aren't Gods of the Skies. You perform an essential function, and should perform it well, but come on, get off the ego trips! The good ole days are gone. Be glad you can do your job well, and are competent.

Be safe out there! I'm done with this thread.

 

[yellowfever]

Go to a major, and you will someday be appropriately compensated for your "skill." I value my skills, but that doesn't mean that I'm not rational about our industry, and my job. I'm a regional FO. Anyone with $60,000, 200 hrs, and a pulse can replace me. Maybe they don't have the experience I have, but the company doesn't care about that as much as they act like they do. They just want the warm body, as long as it meets the minimum standard every 6 months, and shows up to work most of the time.

Some of you really have let this job go to your heads. You aren't Gods of the Skies. You perform an essential function, and should perform it well, but come on, get off the ego trips! The good ole days are gone. Be glad you can do your job well, and are competent.

Be safe out there! I'm done with this thread.

I am at a major! And warm bodies just buried an airplane and it's passengers in Buffalo.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

I am at a major! And warm bodies just buried an airplane and it's passengers in Buffalo.

Congratulations, and agreed, they were warm bodies.

 

[JumpersAway]

Here is the harsh reality for todays regional pilots.

YIP is 100% correct. Regional pilots have a grossly exagerrated sense of self worth. They don't realise that they are in an ENTRY LEVEL job that is not meant to be a career position. Being an airline pilot does not need college level education do perform safely and competently. The regional guys who spent big buck on there "academy" flight training and "harvard of the skies" education are just resentful when they realise that they are really not worth more than $16-25K a year that they make. The pay they recieve is exactly where it should be for an entry level job. They should quit bitchin and put there time in, get there 1000 TPIC and go to the majors like they are supposed to do and quit trying to make the regionals a career position. It's not supposed to be one and will never be one. You guys are not as special as you think and were told by your "academys" that you are.

Good for you that college isn't needed, or you would have never made it.......your spelling is atrocious. Congrats, your qualifications are so bad, a passenger carrying airine doesn't trust you to fly living cargo. Don't forget, it's not that your wage is so great, it's just that the bulk have been cut, while you've managed to maintain a status quo- for now. Good luck with that in the future, because sooner or later UPS is going to get sick of paying you more than the average wide body pilot, and UPS doesn't have the number of management pilots it does for no reason at all.........

 

[ABITRATOR]

It's because of people like you the industry is the way it is today. IDIOT

 

[Skyward]

I can only speak for ASA, but 2nd year FOs at ASA ($35,000 to $37,000) earn more than the per capita personal income in Georgia, and the entire US, for that matter. That, my friend, is a livable wage, unless you think the average person in the US isn't living. I assure you, many people in this country get by with kids, etc. on less than that. I'm not clear on what you think you deserve? (The FOs top out at year 7, $43,000 to $46,000, given 1000 hours per year credit.) That seems to be a respectable sum.

Given the current economic environment, we all should be happy we have good paying jobs, and we should take care of those jobs by running a safe, efficient operation. We also should have respect for our fellow pilots who, for no other reason than sheer bad timing, have been furloughed. Most of them would love to have our jobs right now, and are sickened that we are bickering about pay when they are bartending, doing odd jobs, or flight instructing to make ends meet.

Quoted below from some random economic website: (There may be more recent data out there, but I'm too tired to look for it.)

According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, in 2001, Georgia had a per capita personal income (PCPI) of $28,523 which ranked 27th in the United States (including the District of Columbia) and was 94% of the national average, $30,413. The 2001 PCPI reflected an increase of 1.5% from 2000 compared to the national change of 2.2%. In 2001, Georgia had a total personal income (TPI) of $239,753,556,000 which ranked 11th in the United States and accounted for 2.8% of the national total. The 2001 TPI reflected an increase of 3.6% from 2000 compared to the national change of 3.3%.

I really hate people who under cut our profession!

 

[pilotyip]

how is that

I really hate people who under cut our profession!

When someone posts reality, that is undercutting? Pilots fly airplanes, almost anyone with basic skills and desire can do it. Pilots elect to fly airplanes for living, some like their jobs. Some have higher expectations that the market will not support and don't like it. It is not rocket science or even require a college degree to be successful. Still living the dream.