"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[pilotyip]

Hey! be nice

Stop sending me ultra lengthy private messages giving me your full story.

You said I didn't have a college degree. I just did not know if you had gotten my PM. So instead of letting it go and just agree that we disagree, you revert to a typical new FI posters and revert to name calling, character assassination and other FI stuff typical of people who have trouble looking at other peoples views. BTW you will notice there is a significant level of support for a number of my posts in this thread. You seem to have trouble dealing with the reality of the airline industry and want to change it to meet your expectations. The trouble your expectations can not be matched in the competitive airline industry where the consumer dictates how airlines will operate.

 

[Midge]

You're still acting the bitter old town fool on here. Stop sending me ultra lengthy private messages giving me your full story. I didn't ask for them in the first place, didn't reply two prior back, and you still send them.

Yep, that's pilotypi. Bitter old man. I got one of those long boring PM's as well. Describing how it didn't work out for him, but that he still love's flying. He'd even do it for free.

Fine, sorry it didn't work out, you didn't luck out in your career like some others, but now in some pseudo bitter way, you're trying to contribute to cesspool that is uneducated shiny jet syndrome types. You pretend to be the nice old gentleman, but you desire for the new generation of pilots to make the lowest wages possible is just a$$nine.

No it's not, he's both in management, and works for that cesspool usa jet. I wouldn't expect anything less from some crappy airline managment troll.

It's almost so unreal, I question if you aren't some bored junior high school kid with knowledge of aviation trying to get his kicks. Going as far as to suggest high school dropouts would alright in an airline career, wtf is your problem, over? It's not my fault that you were abused or neglected during your career, but to take that history and now play the abuser is just ridiculous. Even more appalling is that you envy Continental scabs.

Again, what do you expect. He's even blasted about how he'd be willing to work for free. Exactly as you described in your last sentence.
This is all the more reason for having "age 60" remain in place.

 

[pilotyip]

Yep, that's pilotypi. Bitter old man.

Ah! Another new member of FI, instead of living the motto of "If you can not say something nice, say nothing" nope the new posters follow the FI creed of name-calling. Don't worry it is in the highest tradition of new people coming on FI. As you stay longer you either mature and actually exchange information about an industry we all love without resorting to the childish level of a new FI poster, or you drop out because you see you do not fit. Make sure you continue hide between a meaningless name while trashing other people, again another wonderful FI tradition. Welcome aboard, grow with us.

 

[JustaNumber]

Oh please. The CA who was the cause of the crash had 3500 hours at the time of the crash. Do you want to make it 4000hrs to get into the airlines? Actually lets make it 10,000 just to be sure.....Maybe by then they would have learned how to get out of a stall....

Colgan is to blame for hiring an FO fresh out of the 120 degree desert flying in the NE in freezing weather. They also failed to see a pilot that probably should not have been flying for a living. This had nothing to do with total time, of which this crew had enough of at the time of the crash. The FAA should not punish the rest of us pilots for that. That's my view.

Where did I say 4000 hours? I said ATP. That means 1500 hours. (But I'm sure all currently employed 121 pilots could be grandfathered).

This would accomplish two things. First, it would weed out those with zero experience. Most pilots by 1500 hours have either seen ice, or have successfully performed a gazzilion stall recoveries. Second, it would reduce the available pool of job applicants. Airlines would have to increase wages to lure more experienced pilots back to the airlines. As a result of this, there would be overall higher quality resumes in the stack, and Colgan wouldn't have to settle for someone with 5 checkride busts (even if he did have 3500 hours).

I'm telling you, this will benefit passengers, this will benefit current pilots, and this will benefit you, CX880.

 

[pilotyip]

Se atp?

Where did I say 4000 hours? I said ATP. That means 1500 hours. (But I'm sure all currently employed 121 pilots could be grandfathered). .

Would a SE ATP be OK? and no ME time?

 

[JustaNumber]

Would a SE ATP be OK? and no ME time?

It would seem to make sense to me, that one should need a multi-engine Airline Transport Pilot license to be a pilot in a multi-engine airline transport airplane. You can't deny the logic. As far as no ME time, as I explained above, with higher wages the market would provide more experienced applicants with more ME time.

 

[pilotyip]

SE ATP/Comm MEL

It would seem to make sense to me, that one should need a multi-engine Airline Transport Pilot license to be a pilot in a multi-engine airline transport airplane. You can't deny the logic. As far as no ME time, as I explained above, with higher wages the market would provide more experienced applicants with more ME time.

How about this one, would he/she fit?

 

[pipejockey]

Pilots fly airplanes, almost anyone with basic skills and desire can do it. It is not rocket science or even require a college degree to be successful. Still living the dream.

These 6, 7, and 8 figure salary hollywood types act, almost anyone with basic communication skills and the desire to pretend to be someone they are not, can do it!! But the fact that the hundreds of thousands of hollywood wannabes roaming the streets out there can do the same job doesn't keep the screen actors guild wages from the gutter. Far from it! And btw, you absolutely do need a 4 year degree to get a REAL job as an airline pilot, and that is at the majors. 95% of mainline pilots have one. And none of us prior to 9-11 got into this profession having any clue we would be stuck flying a barbie jet for our careers, but that is what it has come to by way of the regionals which were a small part of the industry, and now becoming 800 pound gorillas ruining pilot jobs nationwide. Still living the nightmare.

 

[pipejockey]

Most didn't get hired to be career first officers either, so they are expecting better pay, and will get it when they upgrade.

Why do I continue to have to bring up Horizon, Eagle, and Comair. There are plenty of career FO's at those companies. I mean come on!!! 10 year upgrade at a regional! By the time they upgrade they will be nearly 40, and those are the the lucky ones, another few years to get the 2,000 PIC which is pretty much going to be the bare minimum from here on out to get a job with mainline, unless you are a woman or minority, and you are going to be pushing 45. You will never see mainline upgrades less than 10 years again, as they keep giving more and more flying to the puke regionals, so then after it's all said and done you just might be able to earn a decent wage as a mainline Captain when you turn 55.

You asa, are living in the fantasy land that management has created for you. What happens if Delta, or SKW, or whoever the hell else runs your little puke regional airline, decides asa is too expensive, because of all those extremely well paid captains yall have over there, plus all the FO's who are paid so well as you claim, and doesn't renew your contract? And then you suffer through massive furloughs, upgrades exceed 10 years, or you are furloughed after having spent 5 years on the job, and with no PIC time, you aren't getting any job but at some other regional, then another 5-10 years to upgrade there. That is if the new ASA that shoved paycuts down everybody's throat after they lost their contract with Delta so they can "compete" for other flying in order to stay in business, then proceeds to undercut the puke regional you went to work for after having been furloughed from ASA. And the vicious cycle continues. Why do I have to explain these things to people like you.

I would agree if $35k to $37k was the final amount you would earn at a regional, but it isn't. Eventually, you upgrade to captain. Sure, at some regionals that may take 10 years, but that's all the more reason to choose where you apply carefully (and have some good luck).

Thats right, blame the individual pilot for the long upgrade. He shouldn't have applied there. Go where the quick upgrade is huh? Well quick upgrade today, could turn into a 10 year upgrade by the time your number is up. Ask all the people at Eagle in 2001 with 2 year upgrades and a flow through to AA. Those 2000, and 2001 new hires are still FO's, and now no chance to get to AA and perhaps to ever upgrade at Eagle as the Eagle we all now know may only exist as a shell of its former self after 2012. So don't give me this crap about low pay being temporary. I truly hope you are furloughed before getting any PIC time just so that you'll have to start over again at another puke regional.

 

[pipejockey]

By the way, those tables represent household income, which is not the same as an individual's income. The data you linked to represents 2 incomes in many cases, and is misleading. Do you watch Fox News?

Oh ok, so you are telling me that many of these RJ FO's who are stuck at these regionals with no movement and 10 year upgrades must get married to have the privilege of owning even the modest of homes. Now, if you happen to be a woman, no big deal in finding someone who will marry you, and take care of your every need. For a man on the other hand, what self respecting woman is going to put up with a guy that needs HER to provide for him. A man that would be totally dependent on her for a home, nice car, etc etc. What a joke!! For a NYC based pilot, you will have to at least pay 250 grand for a home within an hours drive, and that would be a dump in a lousy neighborhood. That will be a mortgage of at least $1500 a month. Even those "well paid" FO's at ASA cannot afford that on the $2500 NET income they are earning after tax, 401K contribution, medical. Even many turbo prop captains couldn't afford that. So grown men, who happen to have, by bad luck, ended up at an Eagle, Horizon, Comair, and whatever regional airline that goes stagnant next, shouldn't be able to buy a home, or a new car huh? Just because they are doing such a menial, simple, dumbass job, similar to a walmart greeter, or burger flipper with absolutely no responsibility and nothing invested in the job. In essence...TOTAL LOSERS. After all, with what you and yip say about many pilots, how can management or the public consider them anything other than total wastes of breathe, that do not deserve anything close to what the top half of society deserves.

 

[pipejockey]

Every time the government steps in in any given industry to control prices or wages, all in the name of "fairness", that industry gets screwed up, it no longer grows or prospers, and its members are ultimately all harmed.

I don't necessarily agree that it gets screwed up and its members are harmed. What about the industry pre 1978?

Most of us, including pilots and passengers, would agree that not anyone is or should be qualified to operate a transport airplane. The FAA should have a moral responsibility to artificially limit the pilot supply with additional aptitude, timebuilding, and training requirements. This would ensure that there is a limited supply of pilots, wages would increase, and only the best would make it to the flight deck. Pilots and passengers alike would win, without government having to mandate certain prices or wages.

I think we all should be pushing for ATP mins for ALL airline pilots.

I am in full support of a minimum of 1500 total time, and 500 multiengine with a multi ATP to qualify for any passenger airline. None of this BS where the company sets the mins ever lower and lower like they do at the puke regionals when they can't find anybody with 1500 and 500 anymore. Any other industry just raises pay, hefty signing bonuses, or other perqs to attract good people. Not the good ole airline industry. Pathetic!!

 

[pipejockey]

Thank you for your kind response. I wish no one ill will, but I see a continuing frustration with the job of being a pilot. Pilots are wanting to redefine the job to fit their expectation. These expectations do not match the reality of the market. A market that is driven by the consumer. There is a number of posts here were pilot seem to enjoy their jobs. But these individuals are slammed as the very source of all the problems in the airline industry. It is still a good job, with career earning in the upper brackets of US individual income.

Expectations? Why is it that we as pilots have had to radically lower expectations the past 8 years due to the almighty "market" and expect to earn only 40% what pilots of the 70's earn, and on top of that, now we must pay 1500 to 3000 a month for medical, and also not expect a pension after many years of service. Yet upper management and the executives who earned about 40 times that of their average labor employee, now can expect to earn(legally steal) 400 times that of their average labor, plus have fine medical coverage that I doubt they pay for, plus their severances and golden parachutes which keep getting more extravagant by the year. Shouldn't they be held hostage by the same "market"? There are far more Business MBA's today as compared to the general population than there were in the 70's. So whats your take on this one Mr. Management?

 

[pilotyip]

Upper Management?

So Director of Standards is upper management? Never knew that, thanks for the info. Yes I think upper management compensation is excessive, it is not tied to performance, and they appear not to share in the pain. What can you do about it? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. D. Do nothing and blame your situation on someone else. If you truly have the answer to make it like the good ole days it is your duty to step and start your own airline and steal all the pilots from the other airlines and put them out of business. BTW you seem unhappy, you will notice there are many posts from pilots here that appear to be happy. BTW@ $1500 to $3000/mo for Medical, where does that number come from as 66 year old man I can purchase BS/BC health insurance for my family for under$1000/mo.

 

[pilotyip]

Return to regulation?

I don't necessarily agree that it gets screwed up and its members are harmed. What about the industry pre 1978? !

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg. Flying is still a great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want to be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work.

 

[superrav]

Tell me where else you can work 3 days a week, and make between $40,000 and $100,000? Obviously not all at once, but within 3 years you are near or over 40. Then, working your way to 100 as a captain for the next 15 years.

Not as good as it used to be, but my job certainly is not that hard. My previous career paid a lot more, but I won't "work" for a living ever ever ever again.

This is the problem, we make our jobs look to easy. I hope you don't talk like that to your non pilot friends.

 

[Nindiri]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed.

I've pointed this fact out to quite a few FO's, and I usually get the same response, a blank look as if they have no clue. Unfortunately, many of them have no knowledge of the history of our profession prior to the day they got their first job. They need to read Gann and Buck and the others from that era for some perspective.

 

[Flybet3]

"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story

wah! wah! fu***ng wah!! How often do you homos have to keep posting stupid crap like this. This is the world we live in people!!!! There are always idiots that will work for nothing (us) to get some where in hopes of getting better paying jobs and there's always a bunch of greedy fu**s that only want more money!!! A.K.A CEO's. Man up.

 

[Herman Bloom]

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve.

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

 

[pilotyip]

Reality

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.[/QUOTE]Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff.

 

[Kalifornia]

I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff.[/QUOTE]

You just contradict yourself; at one point in this thread you're talking about how high school drop outs can fly an airplane just fine and why regional pilots shouldn't ask for more, then you say here that you wish pilots made more "(in principle)" and then end later with the whole pilots aren't doctors and can be replaced on a whim and just accept reality. WTF, over?????????

Because of this thought idiocy, at this point I'm convinced there exist 2 more illogical people in aviation then yourself. Your flight physician for approving your medical because you most certainly have dementia and any managers above you for not immediately dropping your pay to minimum wage because you've stated so many times you're in just for the love of flying. You know who worked for peanuts and loved to fly enough to get over the top giddy? The FL410 Pinnacle pilots who defied the laws of professional knowledge, responsibility and serious thought and crashed an airplane because of flying for the fun of it. Which makes your attitude and any influence you have on current or future pilots utterly dangerous.

I don't have all the answers, but if market conditions are going to define this profession, then the profession deserves at least some the respect it once had as Sulley's testimony to the media and congress after the miracle on the Hudson. I'm not for complete regulation, but we have a ton of regulations already for a reason, most are written in blood, and there's been enough blood lately to write some more to recognize that pilots flying for garbage wages are liable to create scrap metal. And while Sulley brought respect back to the profession by reminding people that a professional pilot is not made overnight, you out of hidden seemingly spite are trying to tear it down.

 

[yellowfever]

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve.

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

If you got out of the industry because of the bitching, then why do you read these threads?

 

[pilotyip]

again give some answers

Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff You just contradict yourself; at one point in this thread you're talking about how high school drop outs can fly an airplane just fine and why regional pilots shouldn't ask for more, then you say here that you wish pilots made more "(in principle)" and then end later with the whole pilots aren't doctors and can be replaced on a whim and just accept reality. WTF, over?????????.

Again the incompleteness of your posts lend nothing to the conversation. Attacking me solves nothing, except prehaps maybe to make you feel better about yourself. I have ask for solutions to how you raise regional pay, they can ask for more anyway they want, No workable resonse from you or anyone else of your name calling ilk. There are many post here from pilots like me who enjoy flying airplanes and are satisfied with their lots in life. I have offered solutions, like you coming into management and sharing your wisdom with the rest of the industry. BTW Have you read E. Gann "Fate is the Hunter" can't be a real pilot until you have read that book.

 

[pipejockey]

Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)?

Of course we all knew what we would be earning upon entering this profession as a regional pilot. And for those of us entering this profession before 9-11, we had also reasonably expected to be at a mainline carrier in 5 to 10 years since the mainline carriers had 80% percent of the pilots. What those of us entering this profession did not anticipate, nor should we have, is that mainline pilots would throw away scope like used tampons! Now many people are stuck flying for these 2nd rate airlines for the rest of their careers. And if your particular regional get undercut by some other regional, now you are stuck having to start over at the bottom of some other regionals seniority list. And you don't think there is anything to bi*ch about?

 

[pipejockey]

not tied to performance, and they appear not to share in the pain. What can you do about it? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. BTW you seem unhappy, you will notice there are many posts from pilots here that appear to be happy. BTW@ $1500 to $3000/mo for Medical, where does that number come from as 66 year old man I can purchase BS/BC health insurance for my family for under$1000/mo.

6 days a week? Earning less than senior captains?:laugh: Perhaps they put in a few 6 day work weeks, that is between all the 3 and 4 day weeks and several mini vacations, and a few multi week vacations. And I am sure they are all earning well above the 80 grand(avg. senior RJ captain) and the 140 grand( avg. senior mainline captain) that a pilot who has been on the job many many years earns. A pilot with no pension in most cases I might add, while the people in upper levels of management and the executive offices have cradle to grave entitlements. You mentioned director of standards, I am assuming that is what you are at USA Jet? Well I am not talking about you, I am talking about upper management and those in the executive offices at multi-billion dollar major, national, and regional airlines.

I pay $120 a month for medical. That is $1500 a year for single coverage. I am sure family coverage will be significantly more. Many of the married people I fly with tell me they are on their wife's coverage because the contribution isn't as much. Needless to say their wives are not working for the despicable airline industry!

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation.

No, it was good for all airline pilots!

There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed.

Fine!! It is better to have 20 GOOD JOBS, than 100 lousy jobs!! You can get a lousy job anywhere and not have to put up with anywhere close to all the BS we put up with on this job!

BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg.

Why do I keep having to repeat myself. They are the highest because they have brought everybody else down to their level!! We are only as strong as our weakest link. We all have to compete with SWA dontcha know!! Just about all the legacies had SWA's current pay rates, but 10 years ago!! And I won't even mention how SWA current rates compare to UAL contract 2000, and Delta 2001!!

Flying is still a great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want to be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work.

If it is such a great living, why do the jeers on this board outnumber the cheers by 10 to 1?

 

[Browntothebone]

Of course we all knew what we would be earning upon entering this profession as a regional pilot. And for those of us entering this profession before 9-11, we had also reasonably expected to be at a mainline carrier in 5 to 10 years since the mainline carriers had 80% percent of the pilots. What those of us entering this profession did not anticipate, nor should we have, is that mainline pilots would throw away scope like used tampons! Now many people are stuck flying for these 2nd rate airlines for the rest of their careers. And if your particular regional get undercut by some other regional, now you are stuck having to start over at the bottom of some other regionals seniority list. And you don't think there is anything to bi*ch about?

I'm quite content at my company.

 

[Flyer1015]

They should quit bitchin and put there time in, get there 1000 TPIC and go to the majors like they are supposed to do and quit trying to make the regionals a career position. It's not supposed to be one and will never be one.

Yeah Chief, the days of getting hired at a legacy carrier with just 1,000 TPIC are GONE GONE GONE! Where are we suppose to go? Regional airlines have plenty of pilots with 5,000+ turbine/jet PIC time, and nowhere to go!

 

[tomgoodman]

Tragedy of the Commons

It is better to have 20 GOOD JOBS, than 100 lousy jobs!!

For the profession as a whole, that's probably true, but 100 individual self-interested decisions have not yielded a good result for the group of 100. Who will volunteer to give up his chance at prosperity in order that the others may have a better chance? This much-discussed philosophical problem is often referred to as the "tragedy of the commons":
Imagine that 100 applicants are interviewed separately and each is told: "We'll hire all of you who sign up, but the quality of the job will vary inversely with the number employed. For example, if only 20 sign up, they all get good jobs, but if all 100 join, they all get lousy jobs. The non-refundable signing fee is $100k. What's your decision?"
ALPA founder Dave Behncke thought that the solution was one union encompassing all airline pilots, but it never came about.

 

[pipejockey]

For the profession as a whole, that's probably true, but 100 individual self-interested decisions have not yielded a good result for the group of 100. Who will volunteer to give up his chance at prosperity in order that the others may have a better chance? This much-discussed philosophical problem is often referred to as the "tragedy of the commons":
Imagine that 100 applicants are interviewed separately and each is told: "We'll hire all of you who sign up, but the quality of the job will vary inversely with the number employed. For example, if only 20 sign up, they all get good jobs, but if all 100 join, they all get lousy jobs. The non-refundable signing fee is $100k. What's your decision?"
ALPA founder Dave Behncke thought that the solution was one union encompassing all airline pilots, but it never came about.

This is why the choice needs to be taken out of our hands. Since the airlines won't do it, then the government needs to step in and not allow a number of flights that they know an airport cannot handle or that they know our joke of an ATC system cannot handle. There is no reason whatsoever that we need 35 flights a day from LGA to ORD and another 35 from LGA to BOS or 30 from LGA to DCA. Add the 15 from JFK to DCA and you have 45 flights from 2 NYC airports going to the same place!! Come on now, why do we need that many flights? Frequency is 1 thing, absurdity is clearly another. And that is what we have. If it takes re-regulation to get this nonsense under control, then so be it! If it will cost 25% of the current pilot workforce their jobs, so be it! The jobs that remain will be far better!

How some of you can support this industry being able to add flights at will when the airports and the ATC syatem we have in place cannot handle the traffic on time on even the best of days is beyond me. In the name of protecting some lousy jobs? And yes, they are lousy jobs as most of them are at the regionals.

 

[Speedtape]

One thing is overlooked--everyone that goes through this pipeline--signed up for the job knowing what the pay was! It's supply and demand, and as long as people are willing to take the job at the market rate, the market rate will stay the same. JFYI--No one in any profession thinks they make enough money! Ask a hooker, lawyer, or a doctor!

 

[Browntothebone]

For the profession as a whole, that's probably true, but 100 individual self-interested decisions have not yielded a good result for the group of 100. Who will volunteer to give up his chance at prosperity in order that the others may have a better chance? This much-discussed philosophical problem is often referred to as the "tragedy of the commons":
Imagine that 100 applicants are interviewed separately and each is told: "We'll hire all of you who sign up, but the quality of the job will vary inversely with the number employed. For example, if only 20 sign up, they all get good jobs, but if all 100 join, they all get lousy jobs. The non-refundable signing fee is $100k. What's your decision?"
ALPA founder Dave Behncke thought that the solution was one union encompassing all airline pilots, but it never came about.

Maybe the current crop of regional pilots need to be that group. If they would just let mainline take back all the flying that the regionals took away with RJs, then the next generation would have a nice, cushy job at a major waiting for them. You know, the same job you dreamed of when you started flight school. Now, the current generation of regional pilots would suffer because mainline would take back all it's flying and the regionals would have to furlough, but some group has to take the fall, so the sooner it happens, the better for the profession as a whole.