"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[DrunkIrishman]

Then move to DTW or TOL and live like a king. And jump seat one leg into your job like a dozen guys I know

Should pilots be required to move when their bases close? There are some airlines that change bases as often as they change underwear!

 

[Speedtape]

Nah, I'm not anywhere near perfect. I imagine that I fall somewhere around average. I do the work, study, keep my Jepps up to date, and try to not get violated. In my seat, I'm moderately senior. When there are 3 days, I can hold them in the middle of the week. Even if I were at the top of the list, I would think that there needs to be something other than pure seniority.

I hear your arguments, and they are well received. It would be difficult to get a system together with protections against abuse, but that is why we have a union right? Is the union nothing more than a seniority list? That's the way it sounds, since we would lose everything we've fought for if seniority went out the window. It just seems that seniority is an antiquated system, and it needs to be updated. Maybe seniority plus merit of some kind. A blend?

This might be interesting, but clearly wouldn't be accepted by the pilot group. Since FOQA (FDR downloads) is on the way, we could use that as a reliable measure of proficiency? Right now it is de-identified, but what if it weren't? What if you are judged based on how many infractions your flights record over the course of a year? (Flap overspeeds, speed below 10,000 feet, G-loads, hard landings, etc.) It could see who was PF based on the XFR switch, plus averaged over a year, you would see patterns, I'm sure.

Our union has some smart people in there, right? Why can't they come up with a good system to augment seniority? Of course the senior people want to keep seniority. It's like tenure, once you get there, you don't have to do anything to stay there. Just keep breathing, and keep studying a little 2 days prior to a checkride. No one cares how you fly in the 5-6 months no one is watching!

I know I'm banging my head against the wall. It would just be nice if you people would think outside the box sometimes.

As in law, most of the time generally accepted practices evolve into traditions and customs for good reason. This is usually because, through trial and error, "distilled methods" become "best practices!" I did not invent the wheel, but after thousands of years, it is still used today. I have read the early history of our Profession, and I fully understand why the "Seniority System" was adopted, and why much of early Union work in ALPA, was committed to establishing this system, and it was paid for with alot of negotiating capital. There were alot of really smart people that started this Union in the 1930's, and I think they cracked the code on something tried and true, even back then! ALPA's goals are to promote Safety, and to protect Pilot's Wages and Benefits. Over the years, they have done a pretty good job of that considering the stacked deck in Politics and Pro-Management administrations in the Executive Branch. The "Seniority System" has been the foundation of our Union. It was fought for, early on, against some pretty ruthless managements that saw the system as a threat to MGMT's ability to contain low costs. Really, some of those variables have not changed. ALPA gains, along with the general Union movement, has improved Safety, wages, and working conditions, not only for it's membership, but raised the bar for Non-Union workers in country for years.

I can think outside the box. But, I also have another philosophy, "If it's not Broke, Don't Fix it!" Also, there are usually reasons for why things are the way they are! Study the History! I can be open minded to new thought, but new thought will always be met with great skepticism. Your proposed system, is based on merit? Does Merit mean if you hang out in the CPO, that you get special favor? Some of what you propose cannot be adequately defined, and to be honest, IMHO, would provide an environment that pilots could be constantly abused and never be able to prove it. Granted, there may be no perfect system, but, the Seniority System is superior to what you have not adequately defined that would be open to wide interpretation and possibly promote the Good-Old-Boy network. Read "Flying the Line!" You should have received a copy in your new hire class when you got hired. It may enlighten you a bit, and possibly you will see that not much has changed in some ways since 1931.

There is value in downloading FDR's to track negative trends. However, I doubt what you are suggesting of grading a pilot would ever be allowed. This could easily get out of hand also. There are too many opportunities to single out MGMT undesirables, and apply disparate treatment.

If you strive to be a Professional, you understand that our job is a constant learning environment for our entire career. I am relatively Senior, and I would never show up for a check ride or loft, without proper preparation. This really means constant study and flying standard, so that I may not have to cram a week or two before a check-ride. It has always worked well for me, as it gives me the confidence I need to tackle the other things that may happen that I have little control over. I don't need special recognition in any way for doing my job and being a Professional! I always expect a positive outcome because I do my part!

You seem to claim to think outside the box on this issue. Yet, in your 4th paragraph, you want someone else to figure it out for you! Why don't you come up with the plan instead of sitting back and wanting someone else to do it for you. I respect people who can think outside the box--but, more importantly only those who can develop solutions instead of making general statements that sound like whinning, and someone implying that " the rules are not fair!"

Take some good advice, at your next job, get your appication in earlier! Seniority is everything in this industry, and that will never change!

 

[lindsaya99]

Doctors have seen a huge decrease in the amount they earn over the past 30 years.

Do they know about this?

 

[pipejockey]

go through med school and become an intern and then residence and see how much you are paid. Lots of professional jobs have a low salary when you start - I have absolutely no problem with first year regional pilots making 16k in a couple of years they are making 35 and a couple of more they are pushing 50. I don't lose sleep with that. I am much more concerned with folks that have been working somewhere 20 years and have been downgraded, lost their pensions and are doomed to retire in a few years.

You are absolutely clueless! No RJ FO will be earning 50 grand. Several regional carriers have 10 year upgrades...Eagle, Horizon, Comair, and going up all the time with no end in sight. There will be 12 year upgrades soon at Eagle and Comair. How you could not have a problem with these 1st year RJ pilots earning 16K is total ignorance. You know some Regional new hires already "paid their dues" prior to hiring on with their current carrier, but due to a lack of PIC, and major carriers not hiring, plus how most of the domestic flights are operated by the regionals while mainline shrinks, couldn't get any other job but a scumbag regional job. RJ FO's after 3 years on the job should be earning a minimum of 60 grand.

Plus the intern and residents you seem to think have it so rough are only going to go through that once, and for a fixed time and then they will all be guaranteed a good life, without ever having to start at the bottom again. That is why we need to start being paid for our experience on this job.

 

[jaxpilot]

As long as management keeps reading stuff like this, they know they will have no problem staffing airliners.

 

[WayBack]

Tell me where else you can work 3 days a week, and make between $40,000 and $100,000? Obviously not all at once, but within 3 years you are near or over 40. Then, working your way to 100 as a captain for the next 15 years.

Not as good as it used to be, but my job certainly is not that hard. My previous career paid a lot more, but I won't "work" for a living ever ever ever again.

Wow, I loved flying with guys like you. Hearing about how you made so much money elsewhere, and now you're living out your "dream" as an airline pilot. You're the type that screws up Union votes, because you'd rather except a crap contract because "isn't this the greatest job in the World?!!!!"
Please, do the industry a favor. Gather up the rest of the guys like you and walk into traffic.

 

[Nindiri]

A little jealous, eh? :laugh:

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Gather up the rest of the guys like you and walk into traffic.

Interesting, that's how I feel about you guys that complain all the time about a pretty good job...

 

[buckeyes95]

Learn your job, do it right. I know my job. I do it right. The basic fact is, this job is NOT hard. It just isn't.

Have you ever worked hard? I mean, you know, worked? Studying your OM doesn't count as hard work. Knowing your procedures doesn't count either. Actually DOING your procedures...nope, not hard. In fact, I find flying standard easier than flying non-standard. (Everyone is on the same page.)

So tell me, oh hard working one, where does the hard work come in? Being on duty for 16 hours isn't desirable, but it isn't difficult. Flying for 6 legs a day is a lot of work, but it isn't difficult. Occasionally things happen to get your blood pressure up. They are RARE.

Working hard, and hard work are different things. This job is not hard work.

ASA, you are an idiot. It because of people like you that we will never be paid as much as we should be. Let me ask you this, is being a doctor "hard work"? No it isn't back breaking work, but it requires a skill not many people have and you have to "work hard" to achieve your goals in the profession. They are paid very well to practice medicine. We are not paid well, and we have to be perfect every time. Do us all a favor and get the hell out of this field.

 

[pipejockey]

Average first year medical school residency pay is $35k/year with an average of $1,500 more each year you spend in residency. A lot more than a first year FO.

Yeah, and that 1st year med school guy isn't going to have to start again, after 10 years or more in the industry, back as a 1st year med school guy at 35K again when or even IF he loses his job is he, you management a**clown!! Not to mention never having to deal with management that you have to negotiate with every 4 years who will each and every time claim the company is broke and you have to take a pay cut like we do. Now get lost punk!!

 

[pilotyip]

Ah! FI at it s finest name calling to solve every problem. How can one not love this?

 

[Browntothebone]

You are absolutely clueless! No RJ FO will be earning 50 grand. Several regional carriers have 10 year upgrades...Eagle, Horizon, Comair, and going up all the time with no end in sight. There will be 12 year upgrades soon at Eagle and Comair. How you could not have a problem with these 1st year RJ pilots earning 16K is total ignorance. You know some Regional new hires already "paid their dues" prior to hiring on with their current carrier, but due to a lack of PIC, and major carriers not hiring, plus how most of the domestic flights are operated by the regionals while mainline shrinks, couldn't get any other job but a scumbag regional job. RJ FO's after 3 years on the job should be earning a minimum of 60 grand.

Plus the intern and residents you seem to think have it so rough are only going to go through that once, and for a fixed time and then they will all be guaranteed a good life, without ever having to start at the bottom again. That is why we need to start being paid for our experience on this job.

They can if you include perdiem.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Ah! FI at it s finest name calling to solve every problem. How can one not love this?

Ah! Stupidity at its finest! I love it!
Go fly for free, moron!

 

[pilotyip]

Ah! Stupidity at its finest! I love it!
Go fly for free, moron!

Thanks for the support, got 3.1 hours and 2 landing this weekend in the B-17, only cost me the gas and food to get there for the weekend. Still living the dream, ougth to come over and join us.

 

[Herkdrv]

This is almost as nauseating to watch as "The Real Housewives of New Jersey"!uke:

Or your avatar :erm:

 

[pipejockey]

Ah! Stupidity at its finest! I love it!
Go fly for free, moron!

I'm sure pilotyip would be a great guy to meet up with at the local airport and go fly some warbirds with, and hangar talk about the good old days, and boy how I wish I could travel back to those days, but he and far too many other pilots for my taste are just too content with the current pay structures that exist today. It's one thing to pay some 20 something that couldn't fly a jet out of a paper bag if it were not for the guy to his left, these current RJ FO rates. But when you have companies like Eagle, Horizon and Comair with 10 year upgrades, why should guys with several thousand hours of experience be stuck at 30-40 grand a year due to the misfortune of being at 1 of the carriers that do not, and will not ever provide some sort of career path to the left seat prior to 40 years of age. And by the time they get the PIC time to even remotely qualify for the minute number of mainline jobs that become available, they are far too old to be attractive to mainline, and if by chance a few of these 40+ yo guys were to get hired, they will never get to the left seat at mainline.

There is no good reason that ALPA can't negotiate for some sort of system that would allow any RJ pilot that has 3 full years on the job, but still does not have the seniority to hold CA, to be grandfathered to 4th year CA pay upon entering his 4th year of employment. It is the only just and fair thing to do, and for management to fuss about that, would be tantamount to a slap in the face to every experienced RJ FO out there. And the 4th year CA pay would be frozen until that time the FO could upgrade, and then pay would snap back up to his actual number of years on the job. I just don't know how anyone can say that FO pay is a livable pay structure. A professional airline pilot should not have to sacrifice having a wife, family, home, and child if he chooses to have those things. But on the 2,000 to 2,500 a month RJ FO's are netting, you cannot have your own home anywhere near most of the domiciles out there.

For all you people out there living in your fantasy land of lollipops and gumdrops, can you not agree that RJ FO's ought to be able to provide for a family? We aren't walmart greeters, or fast food workers, or school bus drivers....we are airline pilots with a significant investment in time and money for this job.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

I'm sure pilotyip would be a great guy to meet up with at the local airport and go fly some warbirds with, and hangar talk about the good old days, and boy how I wish I could travel back to those days, but he and far too many other pilots for my taste are just too content with the current pay structures that exist today. It's one thing to pay some 20 something that couldn't fly a jet out of a paper bag if it were not for the guy to his left, these current RJ FO rates. But when you have companies like Eagle, Horizon and Comair with 10 year upgrades, why should guys with several thousand hours of experience be stuck at 30-40 grand a year due to the misfortune of being at 1 of the carriers that do not, and will not ever provide some sort of career path to the left seat prior to 40 years of age. And by the time they get the PIC time to even remotely qualify for the minute number of mainline jobs that become available, they are far too old to be attractive to mainline, and if by chance a few of these 40+ yo guys were to get hired, they will never get to the left seat at mainline.

There is no good reason that ALPA can't negotiate for some sort of system that would allow any RJ pilot that has 3 full years on the job, but still does not have the seniority to hold CA, to be grandfathered to 4th year CA pay upon entering his 4th year of employment. It is the only just and fair thing to do, and for management to fuss about that, would be tantamount to a slap in the face to every experienced RJ FO out there. And the 4th year CA pay would be frozen until that time the FO could upgrade, and then pay would snap back up to his actual number of years on the job. I just don't know how anyone can say that FO pay is a livable pay structure. A professional airline pilot should not have to sacrifice having a wife, family, home, and child if he chooses to have those things. But on the 2,000 to 2,500 a month RJ FO's are netting, you cannot have your own home anywhere near most of the domiciles out there.

For all you people out there living in your fantasy land of lollipops and gumdrops, can you not agree that RJ FO's ought to be able to provide for a family? We aren't walmart greeters, or fast food workers, or school bus drivers....we are airline pilots with a significant investment in time and money for this job.

Nicely put!
Unfortunately there are too many pilotyip's in the world who are willing to "pay to play," or fly for free because they just love it so much, or consider it a "second job" or a hobby!
Until morons like him stop doing it, nothing will change, ever!

 

[pilotyip]

Come up with a solution

Nicely put!
Unfortunately there are too many pilotyip's in the world who are willing to "pay to play," or fly for free because they just love it so much, or consider it a "second job" or a hobby!
Until morons like him stop doing it, nothing will change, ever!

Lots of complaints, but no one offer solutions to an industry driven by the consumer of their product. Name-calling and blame is easy, solutions are not. I have challenged posters on this sight many times to offer solutions, but have yet hear anyone come up with solution to go back to the good ole days without reestablishing Regulation. Which would be good for a few and bad for most. How about a meaningful discussion beyond saying pilotyip and ASA, etc, are the causes of the industry’s downfall. I bear no ill will.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Lots of complaints, but no one offer solutions to an industry driven by the consumer of their product.

The solution is for dickheads like you to stop working for free, and calling this a "hobby," or a "side job." Stop taking jobs, let alone in management of the "USA Jet's" around the world.

Name-calling and blame is easy, solutions are not. I have challenged posters on this sight many times to offer solutions, but have yet hear anyone come up with solution to go back to the good ole days without reestablishing Regulation.

I just offererd you 2 solutions. It appears that you are more part of the problem!

Which would be good for a few and bad for most. How about a meaningful discussion beyond saying pilotyip and ASA, etc, are the causes of the industry’s downfall. I bear no ill will.

I just gave you one.

 

[pilotyip]

So my flying Warbirds for free is the cause of the airline industry going down the tubes, if not where else am I flying for free?

 

[relief tube]

"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story

this would have been partially relevant before age 65, regionals making up 50% of domestic flying, and majors payscales before the 30% hit, and the loss of QOL in some contracts, but not now.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

For all you people out there living in your fantasy land of lollipops and gumdrops, can you not agree that RJ FO's ought to be able to provide for a family? We aren't walmart greeters, or fast food workers, or school bus drivers....we are airline pilots with a significant investment in time and money for this job.

I give up.

 

[pipejockey]

Lots of complaints, but no one offer solutions to an industry driven by the consumer of their product. Name-calling and blame is easy, solutions are not. I have challenged posters on this sight many times to offer solutions, but have yet hear anyone come up with solution to go back to the good ole days without reestablishing Regulation. Which would be good for a few and bad for most. How about a meaningful discussion beyond saying pilotyip and ASA, etc, are the causes of the industry’s downfall. I bear no ill will.

Didn't I just offer up a solution in my last post? Yes, it would cost airlines a small amount, but it's the least that can be done to at least partially right the wrong which is RJ FO pay. At many airlines, you are actually holding CA long before you enter your 4th year of employ, so it wouldn't even be a factor at those companies. But it would allow the FO's at airlines that create a situation of having career FO's like at Comair, Horizon, and Eagle, to actually earn a livable wage.

I did some rough investigating. I approximate there to be about 600 pilots at Eagle with more than 3 years on the job who aren't anywhere near holding CA. To put these guys at 4th year CA pay would cost the company about 18 million. Yip said in an earlier post how insignificant management pay is in the grand scheme of things, well if you take the total annual compensation packages of the 4 highest paid people at AMR, you've just found 18 million dollars. For the compensation given to 4 a**holes you could raise the pay of 600 experienced FO's by 20 grand, and thus allowing them to actually have a life and a family.

It is just mind boggling to me how many people agree with some of these 20-40 grand wages for airline pilots at the regional level, but they don't say a word about the out of control compensation of upper management and the executives. People like Yip, and ASA say we need to adapt, and understand cost structure, supply and demand, and every other pile of BS they can think of to justify our wages which don't come close to equalling an airline pilots earning power of 30 years ago, or even 10 years ago. They say the industry has changed and that we need to accept these lower and lower wages. To what level, they don't say. I guess to whatever level management deems appropriate since they are in "charge". But why is it that upper management and executive salaries have far exceeded that of the cost of living for the past 30 years and that is ok, but we pilots have had to accept our salaries plummeting and having a fraction of the earning power we once did? Are the managers and executives doing that much more work now, while we do that much less?

Average executive compensation was about 40 times that of their labor 30 years ago. Meaning you'd basically have to work a lifetime to earn what an executive did back in the late 70's. And you know what, I'd accept that! But now it is 400 times that of the labor. So how about it all you supply and demand, and market forces quacks? Were there so many more people back in the 70's who were competing for these executive jobs that kept pay down to only 40 times that of labor? I would say people these days with an MBA in Business are a dime a dozen, yet their pay keeps skyrocketing.

 

[pipejockey]

I have challenged posters on this sight many times to offer solutions, but have yet hear anyone come up with solution to go back to the good ole days without reestablishing Regulation.

Who is saying we need to go back to the good ole days of pre-deregulation? To do that, we would need to pay Widebody Ca's well over $400,000
and FO's over $200,000. Sure it would be nice, but I think somewhere in between where we as pilots once had it and would currently like it, and where management wants it AND CURRENTLY HAS IT!! Whatever happened to give and take? All management has to do is threaten bankruptcy, or actually go into bankruptcy, and voila, they get what they want. The laws that allow that need to end. It is not labors responsibility to work for a wage that the company needs to swing a profit. We shouldn't be paid any more if the company is rolling in money, or any less if the company is bankrupt. Why can't we just find a dollar figure that is appropriate to the job at hand and keep it there and adjust it to maintain earning power year over year.

Wow, I can hear all the overzealous capitalists screaming now.

Why can't we have some laws that restrict new airlines from popping up? My goodness we can't have that! There would be less competition and fares might actually cover costs. We would be able to get rid of the overcapacity we have. Do we really need 35 flights a day between LGA and ORD between AA and UAL? Do we really need to go back to full regulation like we had pre 1978 for the government to step in and say 19 flights is enough, and allow AA and UA to decide which 8 of their flights they want to remove from their schedule? And if any other airline has the bright idea to fly LGA-ORD the government just say no!! I know, I know, the government will never do it because the almighty consumer will have a conniption fit because that would cause them to actually have to pay a fare that covers the cost of flying their sorry a**es back and forth. And everybody these days including our politicians seem to think that it is everybody's God given right to be offered a fare they can afford, where until up to 1978, many people just accepted the fact that they couldn't afford to fly. Oh the humanity!!

If this scenario would require a further 25% capacity cut on top of the 15% the industry cut since last year....so be it!! Yes, some of us would be out of work, but maybe then fares could be raised to a level that would accommodate paying wages somewhere between the "good ole days" and the unconscionably poor wages paid today. What's the matter with a little give and take huh? Plus we might even be able to operate a schedule on time. Well, on second thought, how foolish of me to think ATC could actually move 2 planes on time.

 

[pipejockey]

I give up.

Yes, I too should give up hope that all airline pilots be paid a livable wage, and not just the CA's.

 

[Chubaka]

The news article said that the regionals are a stepping stone. I ask this- "A stepping stone to where?"

 

[pilotyip]

An RJ F/O can not support a family. If you have family you should not take a job as a RJ F/O. This is the same as saying a USMC E-2 can not support a family on his wages, he should not have family. It is an entry level job. It is a stepping stone. How many RJ F/O's after they got the 1200 TT, applied at the night time 135 operator looking for IFR PIC's? How many tried to get hired as a TJ SIC at an on-demand company like USA Jet where they might make Captain in a couple years and be making 50K-60K? Where did these RJ F/O's expect their career growth to come from? Sitting in the right seat for 10 years? Time are hard right now, just like 1982, 1992, 2002, time will change movement will come.

 

[pilotyip]

It was a return to reg

Didn't I just offer up a solution in my last post? Yes, it would cost airlines a small amount, but it's the least that can be done to at least partially right the wrong which is RJ FO pay. .

Yes you did and it imposes a degree of regulation. For example new reg.

121.718.
1. A F/O must be paid at least at a level of 51% of the total wages paid by that company.
2. Wages determined in para 1 must be adjusted for the national cost living index for the pilots mailing address shown on the pilot’s certificate. 3. Wages determine in para 1 must be adjusted at least every three months to reflect the 3-month moving average of the DOW JONES 30 industrial movement.
a. An employee by filling out a FAA From 1206.2n can elect to use the NASDAQ moving index as the basis for pay adjustments.
b. An employee by filling out a FAA From 1206.2s can elect to use the S&P 500 moving index as the basis for pay adjustments.

Really if you have the answers, move into management and make it better for everyone. You can complain or you can lead. The choice is yours.

 

[gunfyter]

What is needed is a National union-like organization that limits the supply of pilots ... just like the AMA limits the supply of Doctors!

There is no shortage of people who would like to become MDs. I knew plenty of people with top grades in college who did not get accepted to Medical School.

We could do the same thing. Instead of MCATS we could have another aviation related aptitude battery of tests required before you ever get to apply for CFI or ATP. Like Europe.

We should require a 4 year degree for the ATP as well. And make it a BS not a BA.

Funding for ATP and commercial certificate schools need to be funded by employers after they hire you. You shouldn't be allowed to pay for your own certificates, never mind PFT!

So employers would have to screen pilot applicants like the military does... Since they will pay for all the flight training.

 

[pipejockey]

An RJ F/O can not support a family. If you have family you should not take a job as a RJ F/O. This is the same as saying a USMC E-2 can not support a family on his wages, he should not have family. It is an entry level job. It is a stepping stone. How many RJ F/O's after they got the 1200 TT, applied at the night time 135 operator looking for IFR PIC's? How many tried to get hired as a TJ SIC at an on-demand company like USA Jet where they might make Captain in a couple years and be making 50K-60K? Where did these RJ F/O's expect their career growth to come from? Sitting in the right seat for 10 years? Time are hard right now, just like 1982, 1992, 2002, time will change movement will come.

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Would you have the nerve to tell an Eagle, Horizon, Comair FO that they are currently in a "stepping stone" position? I have never heard of a "stepping stone" position that requires 100 grand to be put out in for most University flight school programs and then be told they will have to work for an average of 35 grand for 10 years, or basically until they are close to if not over 40 years of age. All of the FO,s at the 3 airlines I have mentioned all had the reasonable expectation of no more that a 3 year upgrade, because they were all hired pre 9-11. So you are basically telling these folks they have no right to earn a livable wage until they are 40? You say things are as they were in 82-92-and 2002? WHAT??? After 82 and 92, things improved, but we are still waiting for the 2002 conditions to improve are we not? When did we ever have any sort of movement in this industry, especially at mainline, since 2002? There were glimmers in 2006 and 2007, but that was mostly due to the regionals taking more and more mainline flying with larger and larger aircraft. Which is why the RJ carriers need to provide a livable wage for all equipment and seats. Management has had a filed day since 2001. They have gotten back their B scale pilot wages by transferring an enormous amount of flying to the scumbag RJ carriers.

The pukes in management have told us that they can no longer afford to provide free medical coverage, so what happens, we are charged 1500-3000 a year for the privilege now! Then they say they can no longer afford our pensions, and what happens, pensions that were counted on after a lifetime of service are ended. Now these low life criminal crooks in management say they can no longer afford 401K matches and that will soon end. WTF people!! Wake up? When are we going to say enough is enough? I can guarantee you the despicable sob's in management have free medical coverage, plus a pension, plus the ability to bail on the company and go elsewhere for more money right of the bat! Pilots sure as hell can't!