"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[Nindiri]

Unfortunately, you are worth what you can negotiate, which isn't always as much as we would like.

 

[time builder]

It's really hard to think of a merit based system based on positives. Your mistakes are always scrutinized far more than your heroics are praised, its the nature of the business.

A pilot's career is often summed up by the last mistake they made.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I'm always amused when I read these sorts of threads.

This job is so easy, but there's always a few trying to make it rocket science. It's easy to tell which people have never worked at anything other than being a pilot.

And, of course, there are always a few people complaining about how they are just starving to death on 75K annually. I'm always happy to make more, but really, if you can't get by on 75K then you need to seriously take a look at your lifestyle and spending habits.

I disagree with you. $75k if you are based and live in places like JFK, LGA, EWR, SFO, etc is pretty tight to live on. I doubt those folks have extravagant lives with that pay. I believe that was a major point of discussion in the Colgan crash was it not?

 

[pilotyip]

Minimum Level of Skill

OK, pilotyip. I'll take that statement as I'm familiar with the qualities of high school dropouts as I've seen them and my wife was a teacher for many years........Yeah, yeah. I'm sure some drop-outs are brilliant and probably smarter than everyone on this board. I'm talking the average guy who finds it "hard" to find his way to school every day, not even fly an airplane.

If you write a 5/5 on the AQT/FAR, that is the minimum you need to a 95% successful pilot candidate in the Navy. Smart high school dropouts can write that score. They would be good pilots. The biggest determent in completing flight training is desire. 90% of the US population could be pilots if they wanted to, it is not a difficult if you have the desire. Look at me if I can do it, anyone can. It disappointing to see so many pilots, who have jobs I would have loved to have, bitch about how much they are underpaid, under appreciated and under respected. Why can't everyone just be happy about getting out of bed in the mouring and doing something they truly love. Those people are truly blessed. BTW I know of two major pilots with GED's. One got a four year degrees on line at pay your fee get your B University, the other paid $2500 for a degree based upon the lifetime experiences of a high school drop out.

 

[pilotyip]

Then move

I disagree with you. $75k if you are based and live in places like JFK, LGA, EWR, SFO, etc is pretty tight to live on. I doubt those folks have extravagant lives with that pay. I believe that was a major point of discussion in the Colgan crash was it not?

Then move to DTW or TOL and live like a king. And jump seat one leg into your job like a dozen guys I know

 

[Metro752]

Or........... Dayton!

 

[ASA_Aviator]

ASAAviator-

UALDriver beat me to it, but I would like to add to his opinion. Hard work does not equate to money. If it did, then yes a ditchdigger might make more than a pilot. How "hard" do you think Bill Gates works? How about Donald Trump? They make a lot of money. My point is that hard work should not be what determines pay. There is nothing wrong with guys that want more money or better work rules. That does not make them complainers alone. I am very satisfied with my job, but I would love some more money. Who wouldn't? I do believe that the regionals should have better work rules and they should make more money at the lower and middle scales of longevity.

It was the unions that equated number of seats to pay long ago. They did not associate hard work...if they did then the guys flying planes like twotters woulda been millionaires by now!

I know that. My point really is that we shouldn't complain about this job. It isn't hard, and we are well paid. That is it. Maybe we aren't as well paid as we could be, but I think (at least in the current marketplace) we are near the top of the possible pay for the number of seats we fly around.

 

[Speedtape]

Sure it wouldn't be easy, but don't you think we could figure out a merit based system? It sure would be better to reward quality work, than to play to the least common denominator. Right now, all anyone has to do to advance is be employed long enough to hold the seat, and not do anything stupid on a checkride.

Sorry, you are misguided. Please, read "Flying the Line," and you may better understand the concept of "Seniority" and why it was fought for, and why it is a preferred system.

The concept you suggest would be like turning over an uabated method for a Management Team to selectively eliminate the pilots that they didn't like and keep the ones that were more submissive. Then work rules, wages, and benefits would go to heck in a hand basket. Contracts would be worthless and meaningless.

Seniority provides some basis for job security and job protection that your "proposed system" could never provide because your job would rely on subjective and arbitrary perameters. I would suppose that you may be a pilot who does not have alot of Seniority, but an inflated view of your aviation skills. If the current system is applied appropriately and standards are complied with, then all pilots, in theory, have to maintain a standard level proficiency to be allowed to fly for the next 6-12 months, depending on the type of training program that their company has adopted.

Our current system works well, and is probably better than any other system that could be applied. If you really want the type system that you profess, try applying with Emirates or Cathay Pacific. Or better yet, poll some of their pilots and ask them what system they prefer.

Hand in there, someday you will be Senior, and the Perfect Pilot!

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Sorry, you are misguided. Please, read "Flying the Line," and you may better understand the concept of "Seniority" and why it was fought for, and why it is a preferred system.

The concept you suggest would be like turning over an uabated method for a Management Team to selectively eliminate the pilots that they didn't like and keep the ones that were more submissive. Then work rules, wages, and benefits would go to heck in a hand basket. Contracts would be worthless and meaningless.

Seniority provides some basis for job security and job protection that your "proposed system" could never provide because your job would rely on subjective and arbitrary perameters. I would suppose that you may be a pilot who does not have alot of Seniority, but an inflated view of your aviation skills. If the current system is applied appropriately and standards are complied with, then all pilots, in theory, have to maintain a standard level proficiency to be allowed to fly for the next 6-12 months, depending on the type of training program that their company has adopted.

Our current system works well, and is probably better than any other system that could be applied. If you really want the type system that you profess, try applying with Emirates or Cathay Pacific. Or better yet, poll some of their pilots and ask them what system they prefer.

Hand in there, someday you will be Senior, and the Perfect Pilot!

Nah, I'm not anywhere near perfect. I imagine that I fall somewhere around average. I do the work, study, keep my Jepps up to date, and try to not get violated. In my seat, I'm moderately senior. When there are 3 days, I can hold them in the middle of the week. Even if I were at the top of the list, I would think that there needs to be something other than pure seniority.

I hear your arguments, and they are well received. It would be difficult to get a system together with protections against abuse, but that is why we have a union right? Is the union nothing more than a seniority list? That's the way it sounds, since we would lose everything we've fought for if seniority went out the window. It just seems that seniority is an antiquated system, and it needs to be updated. Maybe seniority plus merit of some kind. A blend?

This might be interesting, but clearly wouldn't be accepted by the pilot group. Since FOQA (FDR downloads) is on the way, we could use that as a reliable measure of proficiency? Right now it is de-identified, but what if it weren't? What if you are judged based on how many infractions your flights record over the course of a year? (Flap overspeeds, speed below 10,000 feet, G-loads, hard landings, etc.) It could see who was PF based on the XFR switch, plus averaged over a year, you would see patterns, I'm sure.

Our union has some smart people in there, right? Why can't they come up with a good system to augment seniority? Of course the senior people want to keep seniority. It's like tenure, once you get there, you don't have to do anything to stay there. Just keep breathing, and keep studying a little 2 days prior to a checkride. No one cares how you fly in the 5-6 months no one is watching!

I know I'm banging my head against the wall. It would just be nice if you people would think outside the box sometimes.

 

[Nindiri]

Nah
This might be interesting, but clearly wouldn't be accepted by the pilot group. Since FOQA (FDR downloads) is on the way, we could use that as a reliable measure of proficiency? Right now it is de-identified, but what if it weren't? What if you are judged based on how many infractions your flights record over the course of a year? (Flap overspeeds, speed below 10,000 feet, G-loads, hard landings, etc.) It could see who was PF based on the XFR switch, plus averaged over a year, you would see patterns, I'm sure.

Then, pilots who took the easy flights to uncrowded airports in good weather would have an unfair advantage over guys who flew difficult flights into busy airspace in crappy weather, thus exposing themselves to a greater opportunity to make those mistakes for FOQA to report. The guys who worked hard and never called in sick on bad weather days would be punished for their hard work.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Then move to DTW or TOL and live like a king. And jump seat one leg into your job like a dozen guys I know

Should pilots be required to move when their bases close? There are some airlines that change bases as often as they change underwear!

 

[Speedtape]

Nah, I'm not anywhere near perfect. I imagine that I fall somewhere around average. I do the work, study, keep my Jepps up to date, and try to not get violated. In my seat, I'm moderately senior. When there are 3 days, I can hold them in the middle of the week. Even if I were at the top of the list, I would think that there needs to be something other than pure seniority.

I hear your arguments, and they are well received. It would be difficult to get a system together with protections against abuse, but that is why we have a union right? Is the union nothing more than a seniority list? That's the way it sounds, since we would lose everything we've fought for if seniority went out the window. It just seems that seniority is an antiquated system, and it needs to be updated. Maybe seniority plus merit of some kind. A blend?

This might be interesting, but clearly wouldn't be accepted by the pilot group. Since FOQA (FDR downloads) is on the way, we could use that as a reliable measure of proficiency? Right now it is de-identified, but what if it weren't? What if you are judged based on how many infractions your flights record over the course of a year? (Flap overspeeds, speed below 10,000 feet, G-loads, hard landings, etc.) It could see who was PF based on the XFR switch, plus averaged over a year, you would see patterns, I'm sure.

Our union has some smart people in there, right? Why can't they come up with a good system to augment seniority? Of course the senior people want to keep seniority. It's like tenure, once you get there, you don't have to do anything to stay there. Just keep breathing, and keep studying a little 2 days prior to a checkride. No one cares how you fly in the 5-6 months no one is watching!

I know I'm banging my head against the wall. It would just be nice if you people would think outside the box sometimes.

As in law, most of the time generally accepted practices evolve into traditions and customs for good reason. This is usually because, through trial and error, "distilled methods" become "best practices!" I did not invent the wheel, but after thousands of years, it is still used today. I have read the early history of our Profession, and I fully understand why the "Seniority System" was adopted, and why much of early Union work in ALPA, was committed to establishing this system, and it was paid for with alot of negotiating capital. There were alot of really smart people that started this Union in the 1930's, and I think they cracked the code on something tried and true, even back then! ALPA's goals are to promote Safety, and to protect Pilot's Wages and Benefits. Over the years, they have done a pretty good job of that considering the stacked deck in Politics and Pro-Management administrations in the Executive Branch. The "Seniority System" has been the foundation of our Union. It was fought for, early on, against some pretty ruthless managements that saw the system as a threat to MGMT's ability to contain low costs. Really, some of those variables have not changed. ALPA gains, along with the general Union movement, has improved Safety, wages, and working conditions, not only for it's membership, but raised the bar for Non-Union workers in country for years.

I can think outside the box. But, I also have another philosophy, "If it's not Broke, Don't Fix it!" Also, there are usually reasons for why things are the way they are! Study the History! I can be open minded to new thought, but new thought will always be met with great skepticism. Your proposed system, is based on merit? Does Merit mean if you hang out in the CPO, that you get special favor? Some of what you propose cannot be adequately defined, and to be honest, IMHO, would provide an environment that pilots could be constantly abused and never be able to prove it. Granted, there may be no perfect system, but, the Seniority System is superior to what you have not adequately defined that would be open to wide interpretation and possibly promote the Good-Old-Boy network. Read "Flying the Line!" You should have received a copy in your new hire class when you got hired. It may enlighten you a bit, and possibly you will see that not much has changed in some ways since 1931.

There is value in downloading FDR's to track negative trends. However, I doubt what you are suggesting of grading a pilot would ever be allowed. This could easily get out of hand also. There are too many opportunities to single out MGMT undesirables, and apply disparate treatment.

If you strive to be a Professional, you understand that our job is a constant learning environment for our entire career. I am relatively Senior, and I would never show up for a check ride or loft, without proper preparation. This really means constant study and flying standard, so that I may not have to cram a week or two before a check-ride. It has always worked well for me, as it gives me the confidence I need to tackle the other things that may happen that I have little control over. I don't need special recognition in any way for doing my job and being a Professional! I always expect a positive outcome because I do my part!

You seem to claim to think outside the box on this issue. Yet, in your 4th paragraph, you want someone else to figure it out for you! Why don't you come up with the plan instead of sitting back and wanting someone else to do it for you. I respect people who can think outside the box--but, more importantly only those who can develop solutions instead of making general statements that sound like whinning, and someone implying that " the rules are not fair!"

Take some good advice, at your next job, get your appication in earlier! Seniority is everything in this industry, and that will never change!

 

[lindsaya99]

Doctors have seen a huge decrease in the amount they earn over the past 30 years.

Do they know about this?

 

[pipejockey]

go through med school and become an intern and then residence and see how much you are paid. Lots of professional jobs have a low salary when you start - I have absolutely no problem with first year regional pilots making 16k in a couple of years they are making 35 and a couple of more they are pushing 50. I don't lose sleep with that. I am much more concerned with folks that have been working somewhere 20 years and have been downgraded, lost their pensions and are doomed to retire in a few years.

You are absolutely clueless! No RJ FO will be earning 50 grand. Several regional carriers have 10 year upgrades...Eagle, Horizon, Comair, and going up all the time with no end in sight. There will be 12 year upgrades soon at Eagle and Comair. How you could not have a problem with these 1st year RJ pilots earning 16K is total ignorance. You know some Regional new hires already "paid their dues" prior to hiring on with their current carrier, but due to a lack of PIC, and major carriers not hiring, plus how most of the domestic flights are operated by the regionals while mainline shrinks, couldn't get any other job but a scumbag regional job. RJ FO's after 3 years on the job should be earning a minimum of 60 grand.

Plus the intern and residents you seem to think have it so rough are only going to go through that once, and for a fixed time and then they will all be guaranteed a good life, without ever having to start at the bottom again. That is why we need to start being paid for our experience on this job.

 

[jaxpilot]

As long as management keeps reading stuff like this, they know they will have no problem staffing airliners.

 

[WayBack]

Tell me where else you can work 3 days a week, and make between $40,000 and $100,000? Obviously not all at once, but within 3 years you are near or over 40. Then, working your way to 100 as a captain for the next 15 years.

Not as good as it used to be, but my job certainly is not that hard. My previous career paid a lot more, but I won't "work" for a living ever ever ever again.

Wow, I loved flying with guys like you. Hearing about how you made so much money elsewhere, and now you're living out your "dream" as an airline pilot. You're the type that screws up Union votes, because you'd rather except a crap contract because "isn't this the greatest job in the World?!!!!"
Please, do the industry a favor. Gather up the rest of the guys like you and walk into traffic.

 

[Nindiri]

A little jealous, eh? :laugh:

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Gather up the rest of the guys like you and walk into traffic.

Interesting, that's how I feel about you guys that complain all the time about a pretty good job...

 

[buckeyes95]

Learn your job, do it right. I know my job. I do it right. The basic fact is, this job is NOT hard. It just isn't.

Have you ever worked hard? I mean, you know, worked? Studying your OM doesn't count as hard work. Knowing your procedures doesn't count either. Actually DOING your procedures...nope, not hard. In fact, I find flying standard easier than flying non-standard. (Everyone is on the same page.)

So tell me, oh hard working one, where does the hard work come in? Being on duty for 16 hours isn't desirable, but it isn't difficult. Flying for 6 legs a day is a lot of work, but it isn't difficult. Occasionally things happen to get your blood pressure up. They are RARE.

Working hard, and hard work are different things. This job is not hard work.

ASA, you are an idiot. It because of people like you that we will never be paid as much as we should be. Let me ask you this, is being a doctor "hard work"? No it isn't back breaking work, but it requires a skill not many people have and you have to "work hard" to achieve your goals in the profession. They are paid very well to practice medicine. We are not paid well, and we have to be perfect every time. Do us all a favor and get the hell out of this field.

 

[pipejockey]

Average first year medical school residency pay is $35k/year with an average of $1,500 more each year you spend in residency. A lot more than a first year FO.

Yeah, and that 1st year med school guy isn't going to have to start again, after 10 years or more in the industry, back as a 1st year med school guy at 35K again when or even IF he loses his job is he, you management a**clown!! Not to mention never having to deal with management that you have to negotiate with every 4 years who will each and every time claim the company is broke and you have to take a pay cut like we do. Now get lost punk!!