"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[LanceAir]

Learn your job, do it right. I know my job. I do it right. The basic fact is, this job is NOT hard. It just isn't.

Have you ever worked hard? I mean, you know, worked? Studying your OM doesn't count as hard work. Knowing your procedures doesn't count either. Actually DOING your procedures...nope, not hard. In fact, I find flying standard easier than flying non-standard. (Everyone is on the same page.)

So tell me, oh hard working one, where does the hard work come in? Being on duty for 16 hours isn't desirable, but it isn't difficult. Flying for 6 legs a day is a lot of work, but it isn't difficult. Occasionally things happen to get your blood pressure up. They are RARE.

Working hard, and hard work are different things. This job is not hard work.

D00che... (nuff said)

 

[Grey Ghost]

This is almost as nauseating to watch as "The Real Housewives of New Jersey"!uke:

 

[30West]

I would seriously ask those of you who say otherwise whether or not you have ever had a job outside of aviation with any real responsibility? I know we have highly specialized training that takes many years and many thousands of dollars to develop. I know that we are responsible for many lives.

*And you wouldn't consider the above "real" responsibility?


Medicine is constantly undergoing research and Physicians learn better techniques all the time

*You could replace Medicine with Aviation and Physicians with Pilots. Do you not always strive to learn more about your career as well as improve your techniques? The job only becomes "easy" when you become satisfied with your own level of knowledge and proficiency. I hope you're not implying that as an FO you've finally reached the top of the ladder and that there is nothing more you can learn or do to better yourself?

.....

 

[Speedtape]

Well said, Joe Pilot!

We need more like you in our Profession that approach their job with the same diligence, attitude, and understanding. You Get It! Thanks for the well thought out post!

 

[joe_pilot]

30West,

At first I didn't even notice you said anything because your comments were inside the quotes you placed around my post. Anyway:

*And you wouldn't consider the above "real" responsibility?

I absolutely do. I know very well how much responsibility Airline pilots take on every day. I was responding to the people who talk about how "hard this job is". I have noticed a trend among those people who have never had a job outside of aviation with any real responsibilities. For example, working at the driving range isn't hard. Being the cashier at the bowling alley isn't hard. Those jobs (and many others, like them) have few responsibilities and are not good examples, again IMO, of "hard jobs".

Note: I am not disparaging driving range workers or bowling alley cashiers.

*You could replace Medicine with Aviation and Physicians with Pilots. Do you not always strive to learn more about your career as well as improve your techniques?

Again, I think you have missed my point entirely. You cannot replace those words like you suggest, at least not in the context of what I was trying to say. My point was that the entire field of aviation knows more about aviation (aerodynamics, safety of flight, human factors, technical advancements, etc.) than the entire medical field knows about the human body and how it works by at least an order of magnitude.

The job only becomes "easy" when you become satisfied with your own level of knowledge and proficiency.

Did you even read my first paragraph? I never "phone it in". Constantly striving to improve one's knowledge and proficiency is one of the hallmarks of being a professional pilot. And I will say it again:

This job is the easiest job I have ever had.

I hope you're not implying that as an FO you've finally reached the top of the ladder and that there is nothing more you can learn or do to better yourself?

Seriously, how do you get this from anything I said? But you know what? Since QOL is so important to me, I really have reached the top of the ladder. At least from a pay standpoint. Until I can hold the great trips I'm holding now as a senior FO, I won't be upgrading anytime soon. (Guys at my company know the date I put my upgrade bid in for. It's a running joke!)

Look, I don't know if I insulted you or if you have a really crappy job. If it's the first case, let's talk about it. If it's the second, then find a better job if you can.

Either way, I'm sorry about it.

-JP

 

[livin'thesim]

The ROI on a $100k investment will not be very good in this industry.

I did the local FBO route and had paid off my flight training by the time I was flying checks. At the regional where I worked, I knew guys still paying $500 per month, I don't know how they did it.

This job is harsh enough economically without carrying that kind of debt around.

 

[Nindiri]

I have to agree, this job is incredibly easy. I show up, fly nice airplanes around the country for 2 or 3 days, then go home with absolutely no responsibilities until next time I check in to fly. Off 15 - 18 days a month and paid well for my time. Life is good.

 

[BoeingBaller]

$35,000?? Unless you're Robert Barone, that wouldn't cover the cost of an average mortgage, school loans, utilities, car payment, insurance, and food per month! You need at least $50k just to pay that plus other things like insurance, and car gas etc. That's without putting even $1 in savings. ESPECIALLY when you're starting off in the hole (16k) it will take more money, and a greater period of time to recoup that loss.

I get it, I chose it too, but I do lose sleep over that. If 35-50 is acceptable to people, then I guess I'd better plan on finding a new career since I cant limbo that low...

Finally some one that gets it....

 

[Kalifornia]

I have to agree, this job is incredibly easy. I show up, fly nice airplanes around the country for 2 or 3 days, then go home with absolutely no responsibilities until next time I check in to fly. Off 15 - 18 days a month and paid well for my time. Life is good.

You and Joe Pilot sure make a cute couple. So now you've fallen into the luxuries of having a nice FO senior line (a byproduct of luck, patience perhaps, timing....for now until your company runs into trouble as airlines comically do) and want the rest of us to know how poor you are as FOs. Because the posts seem to imply that you just let the CA worry about the flight while you sit back and relax. Here's where you idiocy shines through, you probably tell everyone including management, that is unless you aren't indeed part of a cut-throat chief pilot's office, how easy you have it which is all the more reason for someone to cut your fluff lifestyle down. But if it strokes your ego, continue to let some wonder 18 year olds on here know so they can undercut your pay and lifestyle in the future. Cause dude, I'd be happy with 12-13 days off a month and 20 bucks an hour to fly a 737.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Tell me where else you can work 3 days a week, and make between $40,000 and $100,000? Obviously not all at once, but within 3 years you are near or over 40. Then, working your way to 100 as a captain for the next 15 years.

Not as good as it used to be, but my job certainly is not that hard. My previous career paid a lot more, but I won't "work" for a living ever ever ever again.

You're funny.
My airlines CEO recently met with the pilot group and one of the fo's was complaining to him about the low pay. The CEO responded with somthing that reminded me of your statement. He said "Where else can you make what you already make, only working 1/2 the year." He then said "If you want to earn more money, get another part time job".

You shouldn't accept substandard wages because you're lucky enough to only work 3 days per week. It's not a trade off.

 

[kf4amu]

You're funny.
My airlines CEO recently met with the pilot group and one of the fo's was complaining to him about the low pay. The CEO responded with somthing that reminded me of your statement. He said "Where else can you make what you already make, only working 1/2 the year."

F/O shoulda replied "Firefighter/EMT....except I'd be making more and have a pension, and be responsible for many fewer lives than I am now".

 

[waka]

Registered Nurse (RN) or Pharmacists, and they are cleaning up. They can hit that $100,000 the first year.

I disagree with ASA_Aviator's sentiment. However, a first year RN or a Pharmacist should make more, way more than a hot shot pilot mill grad that went for zero time to RJ FO in a year. Now, if the standards are raised for regional airline new-hires, then larger first year earnings can be discussed. Even then, it shouldn't be anywhere near $100,000, not even half of that.

 

[trainer8]

Registered Nurse (RN) or Pharmacists, and they are cleaning up. They can hit that $100,000 the first year.

That's not likely or normal.

Average starting pay in the USA for an RN is $54K including signing bonuses and tuition stipends, less, if you work in an 8-5 private practice.

If you are a BSN that increases about $10K/yr, and if you specialize into Nurse Manager or Nurse Practitioner, your up to $75K to $100K, depending on the region in the USA you are working.

Pharmacology "starts" depend on qualifications/degree and whether your working for a chain (CVS, Walgreens, etc) or a pharm company (Merck, American Cyanamid, Lederle Labs, etc).

My sister-in-law graduated from PCPS 15 years ago with a B.S. in Pharmacology and started two weeks after graduatiing for CVS in NJ managing 3 pharmacies...$57K. Today starting salaries for her qualifications are in the $80K range and max out after 20 years at around $105K. (source - http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Pharmacist/Salary/by_Years_Experience)

T8

 

[CopilotDoug]

F/O shoulda replied "Firefighter/EMT....except I'd be making more and have a pension...

...and have job stability...and not be forced to work until age 65 because 2 or 3 furloughs and starting over at the bottom does wonders for the retirement

 

[Nindiri]

You and Joe Pilot sure make a cute couple. So now you've fallen into the luxuries of having a nice FO senior line (a byproduct of luck, patience perhaps, timing....for now until your company runs into trouble as airlines comically do) and want the rest of us to know how poor you are as FOs. Because the posts seem to imply that you just let the CA worry about the flight while you sit back and relax. Here's where you idiocy shines through, you probably tell everyone including management, that is unless you aren't indeed part of a cut-throat chief pilot's office, how easy you have it which is all the more reason for someone to cut your fluff lifestyle down. But if it strokes your ego, continue to let some wonder 18 year olds on here know so they can undercut your pay and lifestyle in the future. Cause dude, I'd be happy with 12-13 days off a month and 20 bucks an hour to fly a 737.

<shrugs>

It's not my fault if you find flying difficult. Perhaps you should request additional remedial training.

 

[kf4amu]

...and have job stability...and not be forced to work until age 65 because 2 or 3 furloughs and starting over at the bottom does wonders for the retirement

Oh wait, I forgot the 20 days off a month.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

ASA Aviator-

You're not paid to fly the normal stuff...you are paid to handle the non-normal stuff. I would think with your experience you would recognize that difference. You started this career from a previous one that made a decent amount of money (based on your comments). That is quite different from those of us that went to college and then worked our way's up to where we are today. Perhaps if you looked at it from the point of view of not starting with money, you might have a different opinion.

I understand that we are paid for the non-normal stuff. With excellent training and being diligent with staying current, we should be able to handle the non-normal stuff.

I realize that my comments aren't popular. I wish we made more money too. I believe that we deserve it, but that doesn't change the fact that it is an easy job, and we are already pretty well paid. Look at the average pay in the US...

We are paid to be away from home for 3-4 or more days per week. I get that. We are paid to get up early, and go to bed late for 3-4 days in a row. We are paid to deal with scheduling, not be able to plan our lives more than 30 days in advance, not know if we are going to attend our own weddings until the 24th of the prior month, etc. I know this. But I still love my job, and wouldn't go back to my previous career where I had more flexibility, more money, and more responsibility. Does that make me have SJS? I don't think so. I think it means that I am in the right job! After all, some people LOVE scooping up bat crap and feel the way about their jobs that I do about mine.

My main point is that we shouldn't complain so much. If you hate your job, LEAVE! It would create more opportunity for those of us who do. But, you don't leave, and I believe the reason why is that you realize how great this job is, even though you love to complain.

To those of you who responded with actual good points, thanks. The rest of you need to grow up.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The ROI on a $100k investment will not be very good in this industry.

I did the local FBO route and had paid off my flight training by the time I was flying checks. At the regional where I worked, I knew guys still paying $500 per month, I don't know how they did it.

This job is harsh enough economically without carrying that kind of debt around.

Agreed. It shouldn't cost so much to get into the industry.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

You're funny.
My airlines CEO recently met with the pilot group and one of the fo's was complaining to him about the low pay. The CEO responded with somthing that reminded me of your statement. He said "Where else can you make what you already make, only working 1/2 the year." He then said "If you want to earn more money, get another part time job".

You shouldn't accept substandard wages because you're lucky enough to only work 3 days per week. It's not a trade off.

Define substandard? I agree though, you shouldn't accept substandard wages, but currently that is the only option if you want to be a pilot. After all, being union, didn't WE make the first year pay what it is? Why don't we knock the top pay for the captains down a few notches, knock down the top FO pay a few notches, and give the first year guys $30,000.00/year? Riiiight, that's gonna happen.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

It does suck that you have to "start over" when you go to another airline, but until the unionistas get rid of the seniority system, that ain't gonna change. If "quality" really concerned the unions, they would get rid of the seniority system, and adopt some sort of seniority/merit based system of advance. (They also would stop getting people's jobs back that didn't deserve to get them back.)

 

[zasca]

You can not have a merit based system. Not possible. Define how one would work, without making us laugh, and I'll give you a dollar.

Most of the guys that aren't bitching are most likely unmarried, and/or without kids, and/or not commuting, and/or not at their 3rd airline, and/or not in debt, and/or not on reserve. I know it's great, I'm one of those guys. But to say we don't deserve to have our pay keep up with inflation over the last 30 years is asinine. What changed? Why are we the only industry of professionals that have to put up with this?

 

[ASA_Aviator]

You can not have a merit based system. Not possible. Define how one would work, without making us laugh, and I'll give you a dollar.

Most of the guys that aren't bitching are most likely unmarried, and/or without kids, and/or not commuting, and/or not at their 3rd airline, and/or not in debt, and/or not on reserve. I know it's great, I'm one of those guys. But to say we don't deserve to have our pay keep up with inflation over the last 30 years is asinine. What changed? Why are we the only industry of professionals that have to put up with this?

Doctors have seen a huge decrease in the amount they earn over the past 30 years.

 

[JustaNumber]

To say that our job is easy is to say that firemen have an easy job. After all, they spend the better part of most days playing poker and barbequeing, right? Same deal. Although we are much more fatigued on a regular basis, we have to pay the equivalent of a small house to get qualified, we can lose our entire careers on any given day for a moment's inattentiveness, and, oh yeah, we spend many years making less than firefighters. But you're right, it's mostly an easy job.

 

[kf4amu]

To say that our job is easy is to say that firemen have an easy job.

Firemen get paid for their training after they get hired. OR at smaller departments, it is usually free paid by the state.

And I can speak from experience that while physically demanding at times, the job of a firefighter is much much easier than a pilot on a daily basis.

Oh yea, and plus you are respected by the people you serve and the supervisors above you. That's priceless.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Oh wait, I forgot the 20 days off a month.

Nah...you didn't forget, because you know that the 20 off a month only happens with seniority there's a very good chance you'll never get to enjoy.

 

[JustaNumber]

Firemen get paid for their training after they get hired. OR at smaller departments, it is usually free paid by the state.

And I can speak from experience that while physically demanding at times, the job of a firefighter is much much easier than a pilot on a daily basis.

Oh yea, and plus you are respected by the people you serve and the supervisors above you. That's priceless.

I think you missed my point. Being a fireman is easy until you come close to dying every once in a while. Kind of changes your perspective of "easy job".

 

[ualdriver]

It does suck that you have to "start over" when you go to another airline, but until the unionistas get rid of the seniority system, that ain't gonna change. If "quality" really concerned the unions, they would get rid of the seniority system.........

So the seniority system in the airline biz is due to the "unionistas?" Could you please list in your response to me the non-union airlines that don't have a seniority system? The ones where "quality" really concerns them and they'll hire a 10,000 hr. furloughed pilot and place him in the Captain's seat ahead of the guys on their non-union list with seniority accrued?

 

[waka]

To those of you who responded with actual good points, thanks. The rest of you need to grow up.

Oh? Just because most of us has disagreed means that we have to "grow up"? News for you Junior, Not everyone in your life will agree with you. It is you that needs to grow up.....and grow a pair while you're at it.

 

[tomgoodman]

Can of worms?

If "quality" really concerned the unions, they would get rid of the seniority system, and adopt some sort of seniority/merit based system of advance.

One reason that "merit" has not been adopted as the standard for advancement is that people can't agree on who will award the rankings. Should it be Management? Sim instructors/check airmen? Crewmembers who fly with the guy frequently? Clerks who track on-time/fuel burn stats? If the answer is "all of the above", what weight will be assigned to the order of merit produced by each source? I can foresee infighting, campaigning, and even corruption in such a system.

 

[ualdriver]

One reason that "merit" has not been adopted as the standard for advancement is that people can't agree on who will award the rankings. Should it be Management? Sim instructors/check airmen? Crewmembers who fly with the guy frequently? Clerks who track on-time/fuel burn stats? If the answer is "all of the above", what weight will be assigned to the order of merit produced by each source? I can foresee infighting, campaigning, and even corruption in such a system.

Bingo!