"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[Browntothebone]

Why can't people just be happy to be flying the flight levels and not flying a cubicle?

 

[jmreii]

When someone posts reality, that is undercutting? Pilots fly airplanes, almost anyone with basic skills and desire can do it. Pilots elect to fly airplanes for living, some like their jobs. Some have higher expectations that the market will not support and don't like it. It is not rocket science or even require a college degree to be successful. Still living the dream.

I don't always agree with you yip but you are right on the money with this one.

 

[Kalifornia]

When someone posts reality, that is undercutting? Pilots fly airplanes, almost anyone with basic skills and desire can do it. Pilots elect to fly airplanes for living, some like their jobs. Some have higher expectations that the market will not support and don't like it. It is not rocket science or even require a college degree to be successful. Still living the dream.

You're still acting the bitter old town fool on here. Stop sending me ultra lengthy private messages giving me your full story. I didn't ask for them in the first place, didn't reply two prior back, and you still send them. Fine, sorry it didn't work out, you didn't luck out in your career like some others, but now in some pseudo bitter way, you're trying to contribute to cesspool that is uneducated shiny jet syndrome types. You pretend to be the nice old gentleman, but you desire for the new generation of pilots to make the lowest wages possible is just a$$nine. It's almost so unreal, I question if you aren't some bored junior high school kid with knowledge of aviation trying to get his kicks. Going as far as to suggest high school dropouts would alright in an airline career, wtf is your problem, over? It's not my fault that you were abused or neglected during your career, but to take that history and now play the abuser is just ridiculous. Even more appalling is that you envy Continental scabs.

 

[pianoman]

I really think I've gone insane. People defending pilot salaries at the regional level. Do any of you have any successful friends?

Let's look at some of the rationales posted here:

1. You should just live someplace in the sticks like Toledo and commute. Okay, that will work well. So now we're taking at least 8 unpaid flights per month because we don't deserve to be paid well enough to live in a metropolitan area, where (gasp) most airline hubs are. Plus, if everyone follows your rationale, this is not an option.

2. Hey it's fine for me, I'm single! Brilliant. Why have kids or a family, right? Those guys are just greedy and can't manage their money. Well, have a kid or two and watch things like good health insurance and schedules with lots of nights away change in your eyes. Don't forget, someone raised your a@@ and probably sent you to college.

3. What other profession do you have to start over like this if your company fails or you want to go to a major?

You all sound like a bunch of scared women on a Lifetime show.

 

[JustaNumber]

Who is saying we need to go back to the good ole days of pre-deregulation? To do that, we would need to pay Widebody Ca's well over $400,000
and FO's over $200,000. Sure it would be nice, but I think somewhere in between where we as pilots once had it and would currently like it, and where management wants it AND CURRENTLY HAS IT!! Whatever happened to give and take? All management has to do is threaten bankruptcy, or actually go into bankruptcy, and voila, they get what they want. The laws that allow that need to end. It is not labors responsibility to work for a wage that the company needs to swing a profit. We shouldn't be paid any more if the company is rolling in money, or any less if the company is bankrupt. Why can't we just find a dollar figure that is appropriate to the job at hand and keep it there and adjust it to maintain earning power year over year.

Wow, I can hear all the overzealous capitalists screaming now.

Why can't we have some laws that restrict new airlines from popping up? My goodness we can't have that! There would be less competition and fares might actually cover costs. We would be able to get rid of the overcapacity we have. Do we really need 35 flights a day between LGA and ORD between AA and UAL? Do we really need to go back to full regulation like we had pre 1978 for the government to step in and say 19 flights is enough, and allow AA and UA to decide which 8 of their flights they want to remove from their schedule? And if any other airline has the bright idea to fly LGA-ORD the government just say no!! I know, I know, the government will never do it because the almighty consumer will have a conniption fit because that would cause them to actually have to pay a fare that covers the cost of flying their sorry a**es back and forth. And everybody these days including our politicians seem to think that it is everybody's God given right to be offered a fare they can afford, where until up to 1978, many people just accepted the fact that they couldn't afford to fly. Oh the humanity!!

If this scenario would require a further 25% capacity cut on top of the 15% the industry cut since last year....so be it!! Yes, some of us would be out of work, but maybe then fares could be raised to a level that would accommodate paying wages somewhere between the "good ole days" and the unconscionably poor wages paid today. What's the matter with a little give and take huh? Plus we might even be able to operate a schedule on time. Well, on second thought, how foolish of me to think ATC could actually move 2 planes on time.

Every time the government steps in in any given industry to control prices or wages, all in the name of "fairness", that industry gets screwed up, it no longer grows or prospers, and its members are ultimately all harmed.

In an ideal world, the market would be truly free, and the government would only regulate to preserve a certain level of safety, to prevent companies from cutting too many corners and harming the public. So unions would be allowed to exist, to allow free negotiations between labor and management, but there would be no RLA, no "controlled bankruptcies", and certainly no bailouts; if labor is unrealistic, the company would really fail, and it would be a strong lesson to others not to overreach. If management is unrealistic, they would find a shortage of labor and would be forced to offer more.

Most of us, including pilots and passengers, would agree that not anyone is or should be qualified to operate a transport airplane. The FAA should have a moral responsibility to artificially limit the pilot supply with additional aptitude, timebuilding, and training requirements. This would ensure that there is a limited supply of pilots, wages would increase, and only the best would make it to the flight deck. Pilots and passengers alike would win, without government having to mandate certain prices or wages.

I think we all should be pushing for ATP mins for ALL airline pilots.

 

[pianoman]

I think we all should be pushing for ATP mins for ALL airline pilots.

I agree with most of what you said. I would take the above one step further and require some level of verification of flight time. We all know some less-than-scrupulous folks who've got some Pencil-In-Command flight time real fast when they need it for a job.

 

[Nindiri]

Dang, pilotyip, what did you do to get Kalifornia worked up into such a rage?

 

[CX880]

Every time the government steps in in any given industry to control prices or wages, all in the name of "fairness", that industry gets screwed up, it no longer grows or prospers, and its members are ultimately all harmed.

In an ideal world, the market would be truly free, and the government would only regulate to preserve a certain level of safety, to prevent companies from cutting too many corners and harming the public. So unions would be allowed to exist, to allow free negotiations between labor and management, but there would be no RLA, no "controlled bankruptcies", and certainly no bailouts; if labor is unrealistic, the company would really fail, and it would be a strong lesson to others not to overreach. If management is unrealistic, they would find a shortage of labor and would be forced to offer more.

Most of us, including pilots and passengers, would agree that not anyone is or should be qualified to operate a transport airplane. The FAA should have a moral responsibility to artificially limit the pilot supply with additional aptitude, timebuilding, and training requirements. This would ensure that there is a limited supply of pilots, wages would increase, and only the best would make it to the flight deck. Pilots and passengers alike would win, without government having to mandate certain prices or wages.

I think we all should be pushing for ATP mins for ALL airline pilots.

Oh please. The CA who was the cause of the crash had 3500 hours at the time of the crash. Do you want to make it 4000hrs to get into the airlines? Actually lets make it 10,000 just to be sure.....Maybe by then they would have learned how to get out of a stall....

Colgan is to blame for hiring an FO fresh out of the 120 degree desert flying in the NE in freezing weather. They also failed to see a pilot that probably should not have been flying for a living. This had nothing to do with total time, of which this crew had enough of at the time of the crash. The FAA should not punish the rest of us pilots for that. That's my view.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The issue isn't the CA's flying time... it was his judgement and situational awareness. That is what needs to be checked better...

 

[pilotyip]

Thank You

I don't always agree with you yip but you are right on the money with this one.

Thank you for your kind response. I wish no one ill will, but I see a continuing frustration with the job of being a pilot. Pilots are wanting to redefine the job to fit their expectation. These expectations do not match the reality of the market. A market that is driven by the consumer. There is a number of posts here were pilot seem to enjoy their jobs. But these individuals are slammed as the very source of all the problems in the airline industry. It is still a good job, with career earning in the upper brackets of US individual income.

 

[pilotyip]

Hey! be nice

Stop sending me ultra lengthy private messages giving me your full story.

You said I didn't have a college degree. I just did not know if you had gotten my PM. So instead of letting it go and just agree that we disagree, you revert to a typical new FI posters and revert to name calling, character assassination and other FI stuff typical of people who have trouble looking at other peoples views. BTW you will notice there is a significant level of support for a number of my posts in this thread. You seem to have trouble dealing with the reality of the airline industry and want to change it to meet your expectations. The trouble your expectations can not be matched in the competitive airline industry where the consumer dictates how airlines will operate.

 

[Midge]

You're still acting the bitter old town fool on here. Stop sending me ultra lengthy private messages giving me your full story. I didn't ask for them in the first place, didn't reply two prior back, and you still send them.

Yep, that's pilotypi. Bitter old man. I got one of those long boring PM's as well. Describing how it didn't work out for him, but that he still love's flying. He'd even do it for free.

Fine, sorry it didn't work out, you didn't luck out in your career like some others, but now in some pseudo bitter way, you're trying to contribute to cesspool that is uneducated shiny jet syndrome types. You pretend to be the nice old gentleman, but you desire for the new generation of pilots to make the lowest wages possible is just a$$nine.

No it's not, he's both in management, and works for that cesspool usa jet. I wouldn't expect anything less from some crappy airline managment troll.

It's almost so unreal, I question if you aren't some bored junior high school kid with knowledge of aviation trying to get his kicks. Going as far as to suggest high school dropouts would alright in an airline career, wtf is your problem, over? It's not my fault that you were abused or neglected during your career, but to take that history and now play the abuser is just ridiculous. Even more appalling is that you envy Continental scabs.

Again, what do you expect. He's even blasted about how he'd be willing to work for free. Exactly as you described in your last sentence.
This is all the more reason for having "age 60" remain in place.

 

[pilotyip]

Yep, that's pilotypi. Bitter old man.

Ah! Another new member of FI, instead of living the motto of "If you can not say something nice, say nothing" nope the new posters follow the FI creed of name-calling. Don't worry it is in the highest tradition of new people coming on FI. As you stay longer you either mature and actually exchange information about an industry we all love without resorting to the childish level of a new FI poster, or you drop out because you see you do not fit. Make sure you continue hide between a meaningless name while trashing other people, again another wonderful FI tradition. Welcome aboard, grow with us.

 

[JustaNumber]

Oh please. The CA who was the cause of the crash had 3500 hours at the time of the crash. Do you want to make it 4000hrs to get into the airlines? Actually lets make it 10,000 just to be sure.....Maybe by then they would have learned how to get out of a stall....

Colgan is to blame for hiring an FO fresh out of the 120 degree desert flying in the NE in freezing weather. They also failed to see a pilot that probably should not have been flying for a living. This had nothing to do with total time, of which this crew had enough of at the time of the crash. The FAA should not punish the rest of us pilots for that. That's my view.

Where did I say 4000 hours? I said ATP. That means 1500 hours. (But I'm sure all currently employed 121 pilots could be grandfathered).

This would accomplish two things. First, it would weed out those with zero experience. Most pilots by 1500 hours have either seen ice, or have successfully performed a gazzilion stall recoveries. Second, it would reduce the available pool of job applicants. Airlines would have to increase wages to lure more experienced pilots back to the airlines. As a result of this, there would be overall higher quality resumes in the stack, and Colgan wouldn't have to settle for someone with 5 checkride busts (even if he did have 3500 hours).

I'm telling you, this will benefit passengers, this will benefit current pilots, and this will benefit you, CX880.

 

[pilotyip]

Se atp?

Where did I say 4000 hours? I said ATP. That means 1500 hours. (But I'm sure all currently employed 121 pilots could be grandfathered). .

Would a SE ATP be OK? and no ME time?

 

[JustaNumber]

Would a SE ATP be OK? and no ME time?

It would seem to make sense to me, that one should need a multi-engine Airline Transport Pilot license to be a pilot in a multi-engine airline transport airplane. You can't deny the logic. As far as no ME time, as I explained above, with higher wages the market would provide more experienced applicants with more ME time.

 

[pilotyip]

SE ATP/Comm MEL

It would seem to make sense to me, that one should need a multi-engine Airline Transport Pilot license to be a pilot in a multi-engine airline transport airplane. You can't deny the logic. As far as no ME time, as I explained above, with higher wages the market would provide more experienced applicants with more ME time.

How about this one, would he/she fit?

 

[pipejockey]

Pilots fly airplanes, almost anyone with basic skills and desire can do it. It is not rocket science or even require a college degree to be successful. Still living the dream.

These 6, 7, and 8 figure salary hollywood types act, almost anyone with basic communication skills and the desire to pretend to be someone they are not, can do it!! But the fact that the hundreds of thousands of hollywood wannabes roaming the streets out there can do the same job doesn't keep the screen actors guild wages from the gutter. Far from it! And btw, you absolutely do need a 4 year degree to get a REAL job as an airline pilot, and that is at the majors. 95% of mainline pilots have one. And none of us prior to 9-11 got into this profession having any clue we would be stuck flying a barbie jet for our careers, but that is what it has come to by way of the regionals which were a small part of the industry, and now becoming 800 pound gorillas ruining pilot jobs nationwide. Still living the nightmare.

 

[pipejockey]

Most didn't get hired to be career first officers either, so they are expecting better pay, and will get it when they upgrade.

Why do I continue to have to bring up Horizon, Eagle, and Comair. There are plenty of career FO's at those companies. I mean come on!!! 10 year upgrade at a regional! By the time they upgrade they will be nearly 40, and those are the the lucky ones, another few years to get the 2,000 PIC which is pretty much going to be the bare minimum from here on out to get a job with mainline, unless you are a woman or minority, and you are going to be pushing 45. You will never see mainline upgrades less than 10 years again, as they keep giving more and more flying to the puke regionals, so then after it's all said and done you just might be able to earn a decent wage as a mainline Captain when you turn 55.

You asa, are living in the fantasy land that management has created for you. What happens if Delta, or SKW, or whoever the hell else runs your little puke regional airline, decides asa is too expensive, because of all those extremely well paid captains yall have over there, plus all the FO's who are paid so well as you claim, and doesn't renew your contract? And then you suffer through massive furloughs, upgrades exceed 10 years, or you are furloughed after having spent 5 years on the job, and with no PIC time, you aren't getting any job but at some other regional, then another 5-10 years to upgrade there. That is if the new ASA that shoved paycuts down everybody's throat after they lost their contract with Delta so they can "compete" for other flying in order to stay in business, then proceeds to undercut the puke regional you went to work for after having been furloughed from ASA. And the vicious cycle continues. Why do I have to explain these things to people like you.

I would agree if $35k to $37k was the final amount you would earn at a regional, but it isn't. Eventually, you upgrade to captain. Sure, at some regionals that may take 10 years, but that's all the more reason to choose where you apply carefully (and have some good luck).

Thats right, blame the individual pilot for the long upgrade. He shouldn't have applied there. Go where the quick upgrade is huh? Well quick upgrade today, could turn into a 10 year upgrade by the time your number is up. Ask all the people at Eagle in 2001 with 2 year upgrades and a flow through to AA. Those 2000, and 2001 new hires are still FO's, and now no chance to get to AA and perhaps to ever upgrade at Eagle as the Eagle we all now know may only exist as a shell of its former self after 2012. So don't give me this crap about low pay being temporary. I truly hope you are furloughed before getting any PIC time just so that you'll have to start over again at another puke regional.

 

[pipejockey]

By the way, those tables represent household income, which is not the same as an individual's income. The data you linked to represents 2 incomes in many cases, and is misleading. Do you watch Fox News?

Oh ok, so you are telling me that many of these RJ FO's who are stuck at these regionals with no movement and 10 year upgrades must get married to have the privilege of owning even the modest of homes. Now, if you happen to be a woman, no big deal in finding someone who will marry you, and take care of your every need. For a man on the other hand, what self respecting woman is going to put up with a guy that needs HER to provide for him. A man that would be totally dependent on her for a home, nice car, etc etc. What a joke!! For a NYC based pilot, you will have to at least pay 250 grand for a home within an hours drive, and that would be a dump in a lousy neighborhood. That will be a mortgage of at least $1500 a month. Even those "well paid" FO's at ASA cannot afford that on the $2500 NET income they are earning after tax, 401K contribution, medical. Even many turbo prop captains couldn't afford that. So grown men, who happen to have, by bad luck, ended up at an Eagle, Horizon, Comair, and whatever regional airline that goes stagnant next, shouldn't be able to buy a home, or a new car huh? Just because they are doing such a menial, simple, dumbass job, similar to a walmart greeter, or burger flipper with absolutely no responsibility and nothing invested in the job. In essence...TOTAL LOSERS. After all, with what you and yip say about many pilots, how can management or the public consider them anything other than total wastes of breathe, that do not deserve anything close to what the top half of society deserves.