"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[Browntothebone]

You can not have a merit based system. Not possible. Define how one would work, without making us laugh, and I'll give you a dollar.

Easy. Every pilot going through initial newhire training or when a vacancy bid comes out, goes through a computer tracked simulator profile that grades your deviations from the profile maneuvers. The pilots with the highest scores, regardless of seniority, get the captain upgrades. The computer would make it completely impartial and take out the human element of potential favoritism.

 

[clickclickboom]

Just to put things into perspective just how poorly we are paid:

I have a good friend that is a doctor. He does luncheons for a few different drug companies. He is not a salesman he is an allergist

The companies will set up a meeting room in a local hotel and send invites to 10-15 local doctors.

They are fully catered and usually start around 11:00 AM

My bud will make a 15 minute presentation and discuss one or two case studies and then hand out samples for the doctors.

He gets $1500-$2500 to spend 1 hour of his time and if he has to drive more than 30 minutes they will pay him $175 per hour plus expenses.

He usually does these once a week in a three state area. He made over $125,000 last year spending between 1-3 hours once a week including travel time.

That is just the EXTRA income he makes not including his practice

 

[Quack]

Sure it wouldn't be easy, but don't you think we could figure out a merit based system? It sure would be better to reward quality work, than to play to the least common denominator. Right now, all anyone has to do to advance is be employed long enough to hold the seat, and not do anything stupid on a checkride.

ASA, the merit based system simply will not work! when you are talking about an industry based on some level of safety, having guys cut corners to get an early/on time departure, not divert for fear of supervisors coming down hard on them, not writing up mx issues, or becoming the company whore will do more damage to this job and passengers than some stupid merit system.

 

[Browntothebone]

Average first year medical school residency pay is $35k/year with an average of $1,500 more each year you spend in residency. A lot more than a first year FO.

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve. You don't see minor league baseball players getting major league pay, so have can you expect regional pilots to get major airline pay? Regionals are not, nor were they ever meant to be a career destination, except for looser, regional lifers. Put you time in and move on to a major like you are supposed to do.

 

[ualdriver]

After having read this thread, I'm confused. What's considered a "hard" job? How about the manual laborer? That must be the proverbial "hard" job, right?

Ditch digging seems like an extremely easy job to me at many different levels. Let's see, you work an 8 hour shift and you have no other work responsibilities. Cake. Leaning against your shovel when your supervisor's not looking because you don't care about personal responsibility- my God how easy is that. You can take the easy way out with your education. No studying. No showing up for class. Easy. Zero responsibilities on the job. Easy. All you have to do is manipulate a shovel and you're done. And if your supervisor doesn't like the way you shovel, he fires you and you find another EASY job, because who cares? Life is easy and getting fired and going from job to job is EASY. The person who's digging that ditch has taken the EASY way through life and has an EASY, CUSH job. Dropping out of high school, failing to get an education or learn a skill, taking the path of least resistance throughout one's life- that's EASY. That's CUSH. That requires ZERO skill.

Growing up and having the discipline to study when they are so many distractions- drugs, alcohol, sports, skirt, and forcing yourself to study and stay on track- THAT is hard. Going to college and taking on the responsibility and the debts associated with that- HARD. Having a company throw you a couple of thick books and say, "start memorizing" when you could be doing ANYTHING else that is distracting you- that's HARD.

If flying a plane really, really was EASY, none of us would be here today. EASY jobs get filled with people who have little to no education and can't find a job which even requires a modicum of responsibility or self discipline. This job would be filled by the guy in the above example when he got caught standing under a tree when he should have been working. Pilotyip's high-school dropouts would be flying planes and the rest of us would be doing something else. Now, of course, that's not what is happening in our real world because flying planes isn't "EASY." The day this "easy" job gets filled by the ranks of our society that truly can only handle "easy" jobs is the day aviation in the U.S. grinds to a halt and we start taking trains and buses to where we need to go.

 

[CopilotDoug]

After having read this thread, I'm confused. What's considered a "hard" job? How about the manual laborer? That must be the proverbial "hard" job, right?

Ditch digging seems like an extremely easy job to me at many different levels. Let's see, you work an 8 hour shift and you have no other work responsibilities. Cake. Leaning against your shovel when your supervisor's not looking because you don't care about personal responsibility- my God how easy is that. You can take the easy way out with your education. No studying. No showing up for class. Easy. Zero responsibilities on the job. Easy. All you have to do is manipulate a shovel and you're done. And if your supervisor doesn't like the way you shovel, he fires you and you find another EASY job, because who cares? Life is easy and getting fired and going from job to job is EASY. The person who's digging that ditch has taken the EASY way through life and has an EASY, CUSH job. Dropping out of high school, failing to get an education or learn a skill, taking the path of least resistance throughout one's life- that's EASY. That's CUSH. That requires ZERO skill.

Growing up and having the discipline to study when they are so many distractions- drugs, alcohol, sports, skirt, and forcing yourself to study and stay on track- THAT is hard. Going to college and taking on the responsibility and the debts associated with that- HARD. Having a company throw you a couple of thick books and say, "start memorizing" when you could be doing ANYTHING else that is distracting you- that's HARD.

If flying a plane really, really was EASY, none of us would be here today. EASY jobs get filled with people who have little to no education and can't find a job which even requires a modicum of responsibility or self discipline. This job would be filled by the guy in the above example when he got caught standing under a tree when he should have been working. Pilotyip's high-school dropouts would be flying planes and the rest of us would be doing something else. Now, of course, that's not what is happening in our real world because flying planes isn't "EASY." The day this "easy" job gets filled by the ranks of our society that truly can only handle "easy" jobs is the day aviation in the U.S. grinds to a halt and we start taking trains and buses to where we need to go.

Well said, UAL. It's good to see some people still take it seriously.

And for all those pilots not concerned about the money because they have it "easy" and they're "livin' the dream..."

Don't forget, you're one medical exam away from losing your career...
You're one accident/incident away from losing your career...
You're one checkride away from losing your career...

 

[tomgoodman]

Let the computer choose?

Easy. Every pilot going through initial newhire training or when a vacancy bid comes out, goes through a computer tracked simulator profile that grades your deviations from the profile maneuvers. The pilots with the highest scores, regardless of seniority, get the captain upgrades. The computer would make it completely impartial and take out the human element of potential favoritism.

Thanks for coming up with a specific plan. It would be impartial, but here are a couple of questions that occur to me:

1. Are you sure that precision simulator flying is the best measure of a Captain's merit? Current or former sim instructors would win this contest every time, regardless of their line experience, judgment, CRM skills, etc.

2. Would a "winner" receive tenure in the left seat, like a college professor, or would he be subject to downgrade if subsequent competitors outperform him? Continued reliance on a single, long-ago snapshot of the pilot's skill would not be a merit system, but a "former merit" system. The alternative of re-assigning pilots based on their latest sim check would be a training/scheduling nightmare.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

ASAAviator-

UALDriver beat me to it, but I would like to add to his opinion. Hard work does not equate to money. If it did, then yes a ditchdigger might make more than a pilot. How "hard" do you think Bill Gates works? How about Donald Trump? They make a lot of money. My point is that hard work should not be what determines pay. There is nothing wrong with guys that want more money or better work rules. That does not make them complainers alone. I am very satisfied with my job, but I would love some more money. Who wouldn't? I do believe that the regionals should have better work rules and they should make more money at the lower and middle scales of longevity.

It was the unions that equated number of seats to pay long ago. They did not associate hard work...if they did then the guys flying planes like twotters woulda been millionaires by now!

 

[Nindiri]

I'm always amused when I read these sorts of threads.

This job is so easy, but there's always a few trying to make it rocket science. It's easy to tell which people have never worked at anything other than being a pilot.

And, of course, there are always a few people complaining about how they are just starving to death on 75K annually. I'm always happy to make more, but really, if you can't get by on 75K then you need to seriously take a look at your lifestyle and spending habits.

 

[Caveman]

Well said, UAL. It's good to see some people still take it seriously.

And for all those pilots not concerned about the money because they have it "easy" and they're "livin' the dream..."

Don't forget, you're one medical exam away from losing your career...
You're one accident/incident away from losing your career...
You're one checkride away from losing your career...

There's two different topics in this thread. One is whether or not this is an 'easy' job. The other topic is whether or not we're paid enough for what we do. Just because I think my job is relatively easy doesn't mean I think I'm appropriately compensated. Based on how important a well trained, experienced pilot is for the overall safe operation of a company we are underpaid. Based on how absolutely critical our skill set is when everything starts to go wrong in flight we are underpaid. Unfortunately, the supply of skilled pilots exceeds demand so we are paid what the market will bear.