"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[pipejockey]

Every time the government steps in in any given industry to control prices or wages, all in the name of "fairness", that industry gets screwed up, it no longer grows or prospers, and its members are ultimately all harmed.

I don't necessarily agree that it gets screwed up and its members are harmed. What about the industry pre 1978?

Most of us, including pilots and passengers, would agree that not anyone is or should be qualified to operate a transport airplane. The FAA should have a moral responsibility to artificially limit the pilot supply with additional aptitude, timebuilding, and training requirements. This would ensure that there is a limited supply of pilots, wages would increase, and only the best would make it to the flight deck. Pilots and passengers alike would win, without government having to mandate certain prices or wages.

I think we all should be pushing for ATP mins for ALL airline pilots.

I am in full support of a minimum of 1500 total time, and 500 multiengine with a multi ATP to qualify for any passenger airline. None of this BS where the company sets the mins ever lower and lower like they do at the puke regionals when they can't find anybody with 1500 and 500 anymore. Any other industry just raises pay, hefty signing bonuses, or other perqs to attract good people. Not the good ole airline industry. Pathetic!!

 

[pipejockey]

Thank you for your kind response. I wish no one ill will, but I see a continuing frustration with the job of being a pilot. Pilots are wanting to redefine the job to fit their expectation. These expectations do not match the reality of the market. A market that is driven by the consumer. There is a number of posts here were pilot seem to enjoy their jobs. But these individuals are slammed as the very source of all the problems in the airline industry. It is still a good job, with career earning in the upper brackets of US individual income.

Expectations? Why is it that we as pilots have had to radically lower expectations the past 8 years due to the almighty "market" and expect to earn only 40% what pilots of the 70's earn, and on top of that, now we must pay 1500 to 3000 a month for medical, and also not expect a pension after many years of service. Yet upper management and the executives who earned about 40 times that of their average labor employee, now can expect to earn(legally steal) 400 times that of their average labor, plus have fine medical coverage that I doubt they pay for, plus their severances and golden parachutes which keep getting more extravagant by the year. Shouldn't they be held hostage by the same "market"? There are far more Business MBA's today as compared to the general population than there were in the 70's. So whats your take on this one Mr. Management?

 

[pilotyip]

Upper Management?

So Director of Standards is upper management? Never knew that, thanks for the info. Yes I think upper management compensation is excessive, it is not tied to performance, and they appear not to share in the pain. What can you do about it? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. D. Do nothing and blame your situation on someone else. If you truly have the answer to make it like the good ole days it is your duty to step and start your own airline and steal all the pilots from the other airlines and put them out of business. BTW you seem unhappy, you will notice there are many posts from pilots here that appear to be happy. BTW@ $1500 to $3000/mo for Medical, where does that number come from as 66 year old man I can purchase BS/BC health insurance for my family for under$1000/mo.

 

[pilotyip]

Return to regulation?

I don't necessarily agree that it gets screwed up and its members are harmed. What about the industry pre 1978? !

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg. Flying is still a great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want to be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work.

 

[superrav]

Tell me where else you can work 3 days a week, and make between $40,000 and $100,000? Obviously not all at once, but within 3 years you are near or over 40. Then, working your way to 100 as a captain for the next 15 years.

Not as good as it used to be, but my job certainly is not that hard. My previous career paid a lot more, but I won't "work" for a living ever ever ever again.

This is the problem, we make our jobs look to easy. I hope you don't talk like that to your non pilot friends.

 

[Nindiri]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed.

I've pointed this fact out to quite a few FO's, and I usually get the same response, a blank look as if they have no clue. Unfortunately, many of them have no knowledge of the history of our profession prior to the day they got their first job. They need to read Gann and Buck and the others from that era for some perspective.

 

[Flybet3]

"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

He has prospects of earning a six-figure income after he pays his dues.

He and his parents spent about $100,000 on his flight education, leading to a starting salary of about $22,000.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-wed-regionals-growth-0610-jun10,0,4248518.story

wah! wah! fu***ng wah!! How often do you homos have to keep posting stupid crap like this. This is the world we live in people!!!! There are always idiots that will work for nothing (us) to get some where in hopes of getting better paying jobs and there's always a bunch of greedy fu**s that only want more money!!! A.K.A CEO's. Man up.

 

[Herman Bloom]

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve.

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

 

[pilotyip]

Reality

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.[/QUOTE]Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff.

 

[Kalifornia]

I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff.[/QUOTE]

You just contradict yourself; at one point in this thread you're talking about how high school drop outs can fly an airplane just fine and why regional pilots shouldn't ask for more, then you say here that you wish pilots made more "(in principle)" and then end later with the whole pilots aren't doctors and can be replaced on a whim and just accept reality. WTF, over?????????

Because of this thought idiocy, at this point I'm convinced there exist 2 more illogical people in aviation then yourself. Your flight physician for approving your medical because you most certainly have dementia and any managers above you for not immediately dropping your pay to minimum wage because you've stated so many times you're in just for the love of flying. You know who worked for peanuts and loved to fly enough to get over the top giddy? The FL410 Pinnacle pilots who defied the laws of professional knowledge, responsibility and serious thought and crashed an airplane because of flying for the fun of it. Which makes your attitude and any influence you have on current or future pilots utterly dangerous.

I don't have all the answers, but if market conditions are going to define this profession, then the profession deserves at least some the respect it once had as Sulley's testimony to the media and congress after the miracle on the Hudson. I'm not for complete regulation, but we have a ton of regulations already for a reason, most are written in blood, and there's been enough blood lately to write some more to recognize that pilots flying for garbage wages are liable to create scrap metal. And while Sulley brought respect back to the profession by reminding people that a professional pilot is not made overnight, you out of hidden seemingly spite are trying to tear it down.

 

[yellowfever]

And the medical school graduate is MUCH more educated than the average regional pilot. Regional pilots get the pay they deserve.

Well, they get paid what the market will bear. People on this board act like they are surprised when they get to the regionals and get that first (or hundredth) paycheck. Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)? It is really unbelievable to get on here and listen to so many of you (not all of you) whine about something you cannot change. Reminds me of why I got out: too much complaining, too many toxic personalities, too much bitterness, too much bs. I really do empathize with you guys, because I do believe (in principle) that you are worth far more than you are paid; but that is a moot point considering the financial realities of the industry.

And yes, med school graduates have an infininitely larger knowledge base than is required to become a professional pilot. That is just a fact. It is not an exaggeration to say that you could teach the knowledge required of a pilot in less than one semester at the rate they go in med school. And once they graduate, they start their real training in the specialty of their choosing (3 to 8 years). So the hard, cold reality of it is that doctors are not easily replaceable, and pilots are. Not "fair", but that is the nature of the beast.

Good luck to you guys.

If you got out of the industry because of the bitching, then why do you read these threads?

 

[pilotyip]

again give some answers

Thanks nice touch of reality in a sea of name calling and other FI stuff You just contradict yourself; at one point in this thread you're talking about how high school drop outs can fly an airplane just fine and why regional pilots shouldn't ask for more, then you say here that you wish pilots made more "(in principle)" and then end later with the whole pilots aren't doctors and can be replaced on a whim and just accept reality. WTF, over?????????.

Again the incompleteness of your posts lend nothing to the conversation. Attacking me solves nothing, except prehaps maybe to make you feel better about yourself. I have ask for solutions to how you raise regional pay, they can ask for more anyway they want, No workable resonse from you or anyone else of your name calling ilk. There are many post here from pilots like me who enjoy flying airplanes and are satisfied with their lots in life. I have offered solutions, like you coming into management and sharing your wisdom with the rest of the industry. BTW Have you read E. Gann "Fate is the Hunter" can't be a real pilot until you have read that book.

 

[pipejockey]

Who, at this point, is unable to discover with a minimal amount of research what they stand to earn as a regional pilot (before committing to the investment of training)?

Of course we all knew what we would be earning upon entering this profession as a regional pilot. And for those of us entering this profession before 9-11, we had also reasonably expected to be at a mainline carrier in 5 to 10 years since the mainline carriers had 80% percent of the pilots. What those of us entering this profession did not anticipate, nor should we have, is that mainline pilots would throw away scope like used tampons! Now many people are stuck flying for these 2nd rate airlines for the rest of their careers. And if your particular regional get undercut by some other regional, now you are stuck having to start over at the bottom of some other regionals seniority list. And you don't think there is anything to bi*ch about?

 

[pipejockey]

not tied to performance, and they appear not to share in the pain. What can you do about it? This is the reality of the current airline workplace. A. Go to work someplace else, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. B. Shut the place down to punish management, shows them who is boss, maybe more disadvantages than advantages. C. Move into management, work 6 days a week, be on call 24 hours a day, and probably make less than the top Captains at your airline. BTW you seem unhappy, you will notice there are many posts from pilots here that appear to be happy. BTW@ $1500 to $3000/mo for Medical, where does that number come from as 66 year old man I can purchase BS/BC health insurance for my family for under$1000/mo.

6 days a week? Earning less than senior captains?:laugh: Perhaps they put in a few 6 day work weeks, that is between all the 3 and 4 day weeks and several mini vacations, and a few multi week vacations. And I am sure they are all earning well above the 80 grand(avg. senior RJ captain) and the 140 grand( avg. senior mainline captain) that a pilot who has been on the job many many years earns. A pilot with no pension in most cases I might add, while the people in upper levels of management and the executive offices have cradle to grave entitlements. You mentioned director of standards, I am assuming that is what you are at USA Jet? Well I am not talking about you, I am talking about upper management and those in the executive offices at multi-billion dollar major, national, and regional airlines.

I pay $120 a month for medical. That is $1500 a year for single coverage. I am sure family coverage will be significantly more. Many of the married people I fly with tell me they are on their wife's coverage because the contribution isn't as much. Needless to say their wives are not working for the despicable airline industry!

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation.

No, it was good for all airline pilots!

There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed.

Fine!! It is better to have 20 GOOD JOBS, than 100 lousy jobs!! You can get a lousy job anywhere and not have to put up with anywhere close to all the BS we put up with on this job!

BTW SWA the low cost provider has near the top wages, this was done under de-reg.

Why do I keep having to repeat myself. They are the highest because they have brought everybody else down to their level!! We are only as strong as our weakest link. We all have to compete with SWA dontcha know!! Just about all the legacies had SWA's current pay rates, but 10 years ago!! And I won't even mention how SWA current rates compare to UAL contract 2000, and Delta 2001!!

Flying is still a great way to make a living, pilots are not doctor's, if you want to be treated like a doctor finish med school, pilots are not wall street CEO's, if you want to be a wall street CEO, get into one the top 10 MBA's school. You are pilot you fly airplanes, if you like doing that you are probably happy. If not you are in the wrong line of work.

If it is such a great living, why do the jeers on this board outnumber the cheers by 10 to 1?

 

[Browntothebone]

Of course we all knew what we would be earning upon entering this profession as a regional pilot. And for those of us entering this profession before 9-11, we had also reasonably expected to be at a mainline carrier in 5 to 10 years since the mainline carriers had 80% percent of the pilots. What those of us entering this profession did not anticipate, nor should we have, is that mainline pilots would throw away scope like used tampons! Now many people are stuck flying for these 2nd rate airlines for the rest of their careers. And if your particular regional get undercut by some other regional, now you are stuck having to start over at the bottom of some other regionals seniority list. And you don't think there is anything to bi*ch about?

I'm quite content at my company.

 

[Flyer1015]

They should quit bitchin and put there time in, get there 1000 TPIC and go to the majors like they are supposed to do and quit trying to make the regionals a career position. It's not supposed to be one and will never be one.

Yeah Chief, the days of getting hired at a legacy carrier with just 1,000 TPIC are GONE GONE GONE! Where are we suppose to go? Regional airlines have plenty of pilots with 5,000+ turbine/jet PIC time, and nowhere to go!

 

[tomgoodman]

Tragedy of the Commons

It is better to have 20 GOOD JOBS, than 100 lousy jobs!!

For the profession as a whole, that's probably true, but 100 individual self-interested decisions have not yielded a good result for the group of 100. Who will volunteer to give up his chance at prosperity in order that the others may have a better chance? This much-discussed philosophical problem is often referred to as the "tragedy of the commons":
Imagine that 100 applicants are interviewed separately and each is told: "We'll hire all of you who sign up, but the quality of the job will vary inversely with the number employed. For example, if only 20 sign up, they all get good jobs, but if all 100 join, they all get lousy jobs. The non-refundable signing fee is $100k. What's your decision?"
ALPA founder Dave Behncke thought that the solution was one union encompassing all airline pilots, but it never came about.

 

[pipejockey]

For the profession as a whole, that's probably true, but 100 individual self-interested decisions have not yielded a good result for the group of 100. Who will volunteer to give up his chance at prosperity in order that the others may have a better chance? This much-discussed philosophical problem is often referred to as the "tragedy of the commons":
Imagine that 100 applicants are interviewed separately and each is told: "We'll hire all of you who sign up, but the quality of the job will vary inversely with the number employed. For example, if only 20 sign up, they all get good jobs, but if all 100 join, they all get lousy jobs. The non-refundable signing fee is $100k. What's your decision?"
ALPA founder Dave Behncke thought that the solution was one union encompassing all airline pilots, but it never came about.

This is why the choice needs to be taken out of our hands. Since the airlines won't do it, then the government needs to step in and not allow a number of flights that they know an airport cannot handle or that they know our joke of an ATC system cannot handle. There is no reason whatsoever that we need 35 flights a day from LGA to ORD and another 35 from LGA to BOS or 30 from LGA to DCA. Add the 15 from JFK to DCA and you have 45 flights from 2 NYC airports going to the same place!! Come on now, why do we need that many flights? Frequency is 1 thing, absurdity is clearly another. And that is what we have. If it takes re-regulation to get this nonsense under control, then so be it! If it will cost 25% of the current pilot workforce their jobs, so be it! The jobs that remain will be far better!

How some of you can support this industry being able to add flights at will when the airports and the ATC syatem we have in place cannot handle the traffic on time on even the best of days is beyond me. In the name of protecting some lousy jobs? And yes, they are lousy jobs as most of them are at the regionals.

 

[Speedtape]

One thing is overlooked--everyone that goes through this pipeline--signed up for the job knowing what the pay was! It's supply and demand, and as long as people are willing to take the job at the market rate, the market rate will stay the same. JFYI--No one in any profession thinks they make enough money! Ask a hooker, lawyer, or a doctor!

 

[Browntothebone]

For the profession as a whole, that's probably true, but 100 individual self-interested decisions have not yielded a good result for the group of 100. Who will volunteer to give up his chance at prosperity in order that the others may have a better chance? This much-discussed philosophical problem is often referred to as the "tragedy of the commons":
Imagine that 100 applicants are interviewed separately and each is told: "We'll hire all of you who sign up, but the quality of the job will vary inversely with the number employed. For example, if only 20 sign up, they all get good jobs, but if all 100 join, they all get lousy jobs. The non-refundable signing fee is $100k. What's your decision?"
ALPA founder Dave Behncke thought that the solution was one union encompassing all airline pilots, but it never came about.

Maybe the current crop of regional pilots need to be that group. If they would just let mainline take back all the flying that the regionals took away with RJs, then the next generation would have a nice, cushy job at a major waiting for them. You know, the same job you dreamed of when you started flight school. Now, the current generation of regional pilots would suffer because mainline would take back all it's flying and the regionals would have to furlough, but some group has to take the fall, so the sooner it happens, the better for the profession as a whole.