"Pilots don't mind making $16,000 per year because it's a stepping stone."

[Nindiri]

Unfortunately, you are worth what you can negotiate, which isn't always as much as we would like.

 

[time builder]

It's really hard to think of a merit based system based on positives. Your mistakes are always scrutinized far more than your heroics are praised, its the nature of the business.

A pilot's career is often summed up by the last mistake they made.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

I'm always amused when I read these sorts of threads.

This job is so easy, but there's always a few trying to make it rocket science. It's easy to tell which people have never worked at anything other than being a pilot.

And, of course, there are always a few people complaining about how they are just starving to death on 75K annually. I'm always happy to make more, but really, if you can't get by on 75K then you need to seriously take a look at your lifestyle and spending habits.

I disagree with you. $75k if you are based and live in places like JFK, LGA, EWR, SFO, etc is pretty tight to live on. I doubt those folks have extravagant lives with that pay. I believe that was a major point of discussion in the Colgan crash was it not?

 

[pilotyip]

Minimum Level of Skill

OK, pilotyip. I'll take that statement as I'm familiar with the qualities of high school dropouts as I've seen them and my wife was a teacher for many years........Yeah, yeah. I'm sure some drop-outs are brilliant and probably smarter than everyone on this board. I'm talking the average guy who finds it "hard" to find his way to school every day, not even fly an airplane.

If you write a 5/5 on the AQT/FAR, that is the minimum you need to a 95% successful pilot candidate in the Navy. Smart high school dropouts can write that score. They would be good pilots. The biggest determent in completing flight training is desire. 90% of the US population could be pilots if they wanted to, it is not a difficult if you have the desire. Look at me if I can do it, anyone can. It disappointing to see so many pilots, who have jobs I would have loved to have, bitch about how much they are underpaid, under appreciated and under respected. Why can't everyone just be happy about getting out of bed in the mouring and doing something they truly love. Those people are truly blessed. BTW I know of two major pilots with GED's. One got a four year degrees on line at pay your fee get your B University, the other paid $2500 for a degree based upon the lifetime experiences of a high school drop out.

 

[pilotyip]

Then move

I disagree with you. $75k if you are based and live in places like JFK, LGA, EWR, SFO, etc is pretty tight to live on. I doubt those folks have extravagant lives with that pay. I believe that was a major point of discussion in the Colgan crash was it not?

Then move to DTW or TOL and live like a king. And jump seat one leg into your job like a dozen guys I know

 

[Metro752]

Or........... Dayton!

 

[ASA_Aviator]

ASAAviator-

UALDriver beat me to it, but I would like to add to his opinion. Hard work does not equate to money. If it did, then yes a ditchdigger might make more than a pilot. How "hard" do you think Bill Gates works? How about Donald Trump? They make a lot of money. My point is that hard work should not be what determines pay. There is nothing wrong with guys that want more money or better work rules. That does not make them complainers alone. I am very satisfied with my job, but I would love some more money. Who wouldn't? I do believe that the regionals should have better work rules and they should make more money at the lower and middle scales of longevity.

It was the unions that equated number of seats to pay long ago. They did not associate hard work...if they did then the guys flying planes like twotters woulda been millionaires by now!

I know that. My point really is that we shouldn't complain about this job. It isn't hard, and we are well paid. That is it. Maybe we aren't as well paid as we could be, but I think (at least in the current marketplace) we are near the top of the possible pay for the number of seats we fly around.

 

[Speedtape]

Sure it wouldn't be easy, but don't you think we could figure out a merit based system? It sure would be better to reward quality work, than to play to the least common denominator. Right now, all anyone has to do to advance is be employed long enough to hold the seat, and not do anything stupid on a checkride.

Sorry, you are misguided. Please, read "Flying the Line," and you may better understand the concept of "Seniority" and why it was fought for, and why it is a preferred system.

The concept you suggest would be like turning over an uabated method for a Management Team to selectively eliminate the pilots that they didn't like and keep the ones that were more submissive. Then work rules, wages, and benefits would go to heck in a hand basket. Contracts would be worthless and meaningless.

Seniority provides some basis for job security and job protection that your "proposed system" could never provide because your job would rely on subjective and arbitrary perameters. I would suppose that you may be a pilot who does not have alot of Seniority, but an inflated view of your aviation skills. If the current system is applied appropriately and standards are complied with, then all pilots, in theory, have to maintain a standard level proficiency to be allowed to fly for the next 6-12 months, depending on the type of training program that their company has adopted.

Our current system works well, and is probably better than any other system that could be applied. If you really want the type system that you profess, try applying with Emirates or Cathay Pacific. Or better yet, poll some of their pilots and ask them what system they prefer.

Hand in there, someday you will be Senior, and the Perfect Pilot!

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Sorry, you are misguided. Please, read "Flying the Line," and you may better understand the concept of "Seniority" and why it was fought for, and why it is a preferred system.

The concept you suggest would be like turning over an uabated method for a Management Team to selectively eliminate the pilots that they didn't like and keep the ones that were more submissive. Then work rules, wages, and benefits would go to heck in a hand basket. Contracts would be worthless and meaningless.

Seniority provides some basis for job security and job protection that your "proposed system" could never provide because your job would rely on subjective and arbitrary perameters. I would suppose that you may be a pilot who does not have alot of Seniority, but an inflated view of your aviation skills. If the current system is applied appropriately and standards are complied with, then all pilots, in theory, have to maintain a standard level proficiency to be allowed to fly for the next 6-12 months, depending on the type of training program that their company has adopted.

Our current system works well, and is probably better than any other system that could be applied. If you really want the type system that you profess, try applying with Emirates or Cathay Pacific. Or better yet, poll some of their pilots and ask them what system they prefer.

Hand in there, someday you will be Senior, and the Perfect Pilot!

Nah, I'm not anywhere near perfect. I imagine that I fall somewhere around average. I do the work, study, keep my Jepps up to date, and try to not get violated. In my seat, I'm moderately senior. When there are 3 days, I can hold them in the middle of the week. Even if I were at the top of the list, I would think that there needs to be something other than pure seniority.

I hear your arguments, and they are well received. It would be difficult to get a system together with protections against abuse, but that is why we have a union right? Is the union nothing more than a seniority list? That's the way it sounds, since we would lose everything we've fought for if seniority went out the window. It just seems that seniority is an antiquated system, and it needs to be updated. Maybe seniority plus merit of some kind. A blend?

This might be interesting, but clearly wouldn't be accepted by the pilot group. Since FOQA (FDR downloads) is on the way, we could use that as a reliable measure of proficiency? Right now it is de-identified, but what if it weren't? What if you are judged based on how many infractions your flights record over the course of a year? (Flap overspeeds, speed below 10,000 feet, G-loads, hard landings, etc.) It could see who was PF based on the XFR switch, plus averaged over a year, you would see patterns, I'm sure.

Our union has some smart people in there, right? Why can't they come up with a good system to augment seniority? Of course the senior people want to keep seniority. It's like tenure, once you get there, you don't have to do anything to stay there. Just keep breathing, and keep studying a little 2 days prior to a checkride. No one cares how you fly in the 5-6 months no one is watching!

I know I'm banging my head against the wall. It would just be nice if you people would think outside the box sometimes.

 

[Nindiri]

Nah
This might be interesting, but clearly wouldn't be accepted by the pilot group. Since FOQA (FDR downloads) is on the way, we could use that as a reliable measure of proficiency? Right now it is de-identified, but what if it weren't? What if you are judged based on how many infractions your flights record over the course of a year? (Flap overspeeds, speed below 10,000 feet, G-loads, hard landings, etc.) It could see who was PF based on the XFR switch, plus averaged over a year, you would see patterns, I'm sure.

Then, pilots who took the easy flights to uncrowded airports in good weather would have an unfair advantage over guys who flew difficult flights into busy airspace in crappy weather, thus exposing themselves to a greater opportunity to make those mistakes for FOQA to report. The guys who worked hard and never called in sick on bad weather days would be punished for their hard work.