Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

[Blueline]

I never said I didn't think they were here. I was just looking for the source. I didn't realize it was admitted in the last round of meetings.

I'd have to agree with the previous statements, then, that the only third party in this relationship is F&H. JBPA is not a third party. It may not be all of the pilots, but it's incorrect to call it a third party.

Login to www.jetbluepilots.org. On the right side of the homepage is a document that F&H submitted to the NMB as a Notice of Appearance.

F&H is alive and well at JetBlue.

Vote Yes

 

[radarlove]

I'm not a JBLU pilot, I don't have access to the union guy's website.

 

[bluesideup340]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesideup340 http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1740381#post1740381
If UNIONS are that great for pilots why would there be an anti-ALPA contingent at JetBlue?

Because pilots are notorious for placing blame where it doesn't belong.

So, what you are saying is that professionals have no idea what they are talking about. Matter of fact, in your opinion these folks need a UNION guidance to know right from wrong and when they feel their Union did them wrong; well then they are just plain mistaken.


Quote:
Did ALPA fail its membership?

No.


You admitted before that JB has a large number of Pilots with anti-ALPA sentiments. But you also insist ALPA is flawless regardless of the numbers or facts on the ground. Wow
Let me mention just two names here US Air and Atlas/Polar.

I guess in your book these people are just clueless.

 

[bluesideup340]

PCL -128
Your slogan “You Are the Union” always sounds good during a campaign (something I do expect from a Union organizer like you). Or Pilots will have a voice if you vote in a union – your opinion will count. Who wouldn't vote for that? Great Union sales pitch but far from the truth. Just consider the mechanics of how unions listen to the voice of their constituency.

If JBPA is voted in, the only thing they won is an election for the right to speak on behalf of JB Pilots for the purpose of collective bargaining. That's it.

So it is not accurate to say that the individual Pilot has a voice in a union. In fact the opposite is true. In fact Pilots lose their individual voice the minute a union is voted in and give that voice to the union.
JBPA may listen to some of the Pilots (mostly to politically connected with JBPA leadership or those that move into leadership – at best we are talking a handful guys and girls), but legally JBPA can do whatever it wants as our representative whether you agree with it or not.
So long as it meets its "duty of fair representation" (and the NMB almost always says it does) the union can do what ever the heck it wants.

True we will have an opportunity to vote on JBPA leadership, and if enough people disagree with what the current leaders are doing then we might get new leaders. But again, all power rests with the leadership - not the individual Pilot.
And what is up with the promises of Pilots will actually sit at the bargaining table and negotiate a contract. That does happen sometimes. But a real negotiation looks different. What nobody wants to mention is that the bargaining committee is almost always instructed, by the hired professional negotiator, to not comment at the table and to save discussions for "caucus" meetings away from the table. The committee is told that this shows a "united front" at the table.
At the end the negotiator and the JBPA leadership will decided on all matters in the process.
Of course let us not forget ratification that is finally when you have a say in the matter.

No not really. Ratification for the most part is “a horse and pony show” put on by the Union to instruct you to vote yes -sometime NO but mostly Yes- either way you are told to what to do. They will also tell you that only they know privileged and confidential information and made the decision this is the best for you.

If you say now this sounds just like recent JB leadership road-shows, let me tell you, you have seen nothing yet. Be warned should you ever questions the Union on their decision at one of these occasions, we will encounter exactly what Unions promised you they will protect you from.
That is incompetence and indifference that comes with the misuse of authority. You heard the adage: Power corrupts, absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

So to say you have a voice in JBPA is the same thing as saying you have a voice in American politics. Technically you do have a voice – you get to vote on representatives and you might even help to get rid of one who you don't agree with. But do you feel like you have any kind of day today voice about what happens in Washington (or in your state or local government for that matter)? That is the exact kind of voice you have in a union.

Sure right now I have not much more say either, but so far I have been treated by JB management much better than I have ever been treated by my fellow Union brethren. Although JB management is not flawless, at least it is respectful and business like. With two decades of service under my belt, I know through personal experience, that is not the hallmark of your typical Union leadership. In all fairness this also holds true to some of the management I work for until now. But for right know JB is not a place we that deserves a Union.

Last but not least, if you feel Dave and Russ aren’t listening to you now, it's not going to change just because a union is voted in.

 

[linepilot]

PCL -128
Last but not least, if you feel Dave and Russ aren’t listening to you now, it's not going to change just because a union is voted in.

Oh yes it will.

The provisions of the RLA and Section 6 negotiations will FORCE them to listen and to negotiate. They will be listening better than they ever have before.

It will also FORCE them to open the books. "Oh look! We're in pretty good shape for an industry standard pay and benefits package!"

It will also provide the leverage of release and self-help. This is why they WILL listen to you.

That is if you have some pilots with spines.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

PCL -128
Your slogan “You Are the Union” always sounds good during a campaign (something I do expect from a Union organizer like you). Or Pilots will have a voice if you vote in a union – your opinion will count. Who wouldn't vote for that? Great Union sales pitch but far from the truth. Just consider the mechanics of how unions listen to the voice of their constituency.

If JBPA is voted in, the only thing they won is an election for the right to speak on behalf of JB Pilots for the purpose of collective bargaining. That's it.

So it is not accurate to say that the individual Pilot has a voice in a union. In fact the opposite is true. In fact Pilots lose their individual voice the minute a union is voted in and give that voice to the union.
JBPA may listen to some of the Pilots (mostly to politically connected with JBPA leadership or those that move into leadership – at best we are talking a handful guys and girls), but legally JBPA can do whatever it wants as our representative whether you agree with it or not.
So long as it meets its "duty of fair representation" (and the NMB almost always says it does) the union can do what ever the heck it wants.

True we will have an opportunity to vote on JBPA leadership, and if enough people disagree with what the current leaders are doing then we might get new leaders. But again, all power rests with the leadership - not the individual Pilot.
And what is up with the promises of Pilots will actually sit at the bargaining table and negotiate a contract. That does happen sometimes. But a real negotiation looks different. What nobody wants to mention is that the bargaining committee is almost always instructed, by the hired professional negotiator, to not comment at the table and to save discussions for "caucus" meetings away from the table. The committee is told that this shows a "united front" at the table.
At the end the negotiator and the JBPA leadership will decided on all matters in the process.
Of course let us not forget ratification that is finally when you have a say in the matter.

No not really. Ratification for the most part is “a horse and pony show” put on by the Union to instruct you to vote yes -sometime NO but mostly Yes- either way you are told to what to do. They will also tell you that only they know privileged and confidential information and made the decision this is the best for you.

If you say now this sounds just like recent JB leadership road-shows, let me tell you, you have seen nothing yet. Be warned should you ever questions the Union on their decision at one of these occasions, we will encounter exactly what Unions promised you they will protect you from.
That is incompetence and indifference that comes with the misuse of authority. You heard the adage: Power corrupts, absolute Power corrupts absolutely.

So to say you have a voice in JBPA is the same thing as saying you have a voice in American politics. Technically you do have a voice – you get to vote on representatives and you might even help to get rid of one who you don't agree with. But do you feel like you have any kind of day today voice about what happens in Washington (or in your state or local government for that matter)? That is the exact kind of voice you have in a union.

Sure right now I have not much more say either, but so far I have been treated by JB management much better than I have ever been treated by my fellow Union brethren. Although JB management is not flawless, at least it is respectful and business like. With two decades of service under my belt, I know through personal experience, that is not the hallmark of your typical Union leadership. In all fairness this also holds true to some of the management I work for until now. But for right know JB is not a place we that deserves a Union.

Last but not least, if you feel Dave and Russ aren’t listening to you now, it's not going to change just because a union is voted in.

Your whole post is based upon your valid experience of non participatory unions members, like citizens....

Consider for a moment.... if in this new union at JB, that ALL of the pilots participated at some level, some of the time.....


Why would you not participate?

 

[PCL_128]

So, what you are saying is that professionals have no idea what they are talking about. Matter of fact, in your opinion these folks need a UNION guidance to know right from wrong and when they feel their Union did them wrong; well then they are just plain mistaken.

That's not even close to what I was saying. What I said was that pilots misplaced the blame. This is just human nature. Find the nearest available scapegoat on which to pin all of the blame. That's always the union, whether the union earned the ire or not.

You admitted before that JB has a large number of Pilots with anti-ALPA sentiments. But you also insist ALPA is flawless regardless of the numbers or facts on the ground. Wow

Flawless? I've never called ALPA "flawless." Far from it, in fact. ALPA has plenty of flaws. ALPA has made plenty of mistakes. But ALPA is not the cause of all the world's problems as guys like you would like to allege.

 

[Splert]

.................

 

[PCL_128]

In fact Pilots lose their individual voice the minute a union is voted in and give that voice to the union.

What individual voice do you have now? Do you honestly think that JetBlue management listens to your voice now? They've hired a third party in F & H. They obviously don't want to talk with you. They want their union-busting law firm to beat you into submission. That's hardly listening to your "individual voice." The union will give you a voice at long last, something you've never had.

JBPA may listen to some of the Pilots (mostly to politically connected with JBPA leadership or those that move into leadership – at best we are talking a handful guys and girls), but legally JBPA can do whatever it wants as our representative whether you agree with it or not.

Every union has a structure set up to allow the membership to voice their opinions and concerns to their leadership. ALPA has Local Council meetings. The NPA has Domicile Meetings and town halls. Other unions come up with different mechanisms. I don't know what is in the JBPA Bylaws, but I'm sure they've set up some sort of system to give the rank-and-file control over their union. Whether you choose to exercise that right is up to you and the rest of the membership.

So long as it meets its "duty of fair representation" (and the NMB almost always says it does) the union can do what ever the heck it wants.

The NMB doesn't make determinations on DFR issues. That's up to the courts. As far as unions being able to do "whatever the heck they want," you couldn't be further from the truth. When you vote this month, you're voting on the Bylaws that come along with the JBPA. The JBPA will be accountable to adhering to those Bylaws. The DOL provides oversight and gives you the ability to file ULPs (unfair labor practices) against the union if they don't follow their Bylaws. I'm sure there is also a mechanism in the JBPA for you to change the Bylaws if you so choose.

True we will have an opportunity to vote on JBPA leadership, and if enough people disagree with what the current leaders are doing then we might get new leaders. But again, all power rests with the leadership - not the individual Pilot.

You just contradicted yourself. You've admitted that the rank and file has control over who is in the leadership, but then you claim that the leadership has all of the power instead of the membership. That makes no sense. The ultimate power rests in the hands of the membership, not the leaders. You control their destiny. If they don't follow your direction, then you get rid of them.

Of course let us not forget ratification that is finally when you have a say in the matter.

No not really. Ratification for the most part is “a horse and pony show” put on by the Union to instruct you to vote yes -sometime NO but mostly Yes- either way you are told to what to do. They will also tell you that only they know privileged and confidential information and made the decision this is the best for you.

Again, wrong. "Horse and pony show?" The membership at my airline voted down a TA just last year. Not only that, but we recalled the leaders and replaced them with leaders that would better represent us. Does that sound like a "horse and pony show" to you? It doesn't to me. It sounds like democracy in action.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

That's not even close to what I was saying. What I said was that pilots misplaced the blame. This is just human nature. Find the nearest available scapegoat on which to pin all of the blame. That's always the union, whether the union earned the ire or not.



Flawless? I've never called ALPA "flawless." Far from it, in fact. ALPA has plenty of flaws. ALPA has made plenty of mistakes. But ALPA is not the cause of all the world's problems as guys like you would like to allege.

If unions are SO GREAT, then why do you guys at Airtran need "a change" from NPA to ALPA??? What in the world is that all about? If you can't even get what you desire with your in-house union; what will an outside union do for you??? It's so silly...

//and oh, for all you JBPAs out there-- here's a non-SWAPA case of an inhouse union imploding...