Pilots against JBPA (jetblue union)

[johnboy99]

OK fair enough, give me an example of a work rule or rules that has changed by an e-mail in the last 12 months. And Also, give me reasons why it should not have changed or what is should have been instead.

Let me guess. You think we should just give the company another 90 days to make things right. Well if you believe that then don't forget to leave cookies and milk out on the table for the fat man in a red suit.

 

[CaptainSpaz]

#2 was changed with no notice at all, obviously. I believe the previous poster used the "changed via email" as an illustration of any change that is made outside of the scope of our PEAs with little or no notice.

#3 and the subsiquent contract was forced upon us. The vast majority of the pilots here feel that this was a very poor decision.

 

[bluesideup340]

Howdy Blueside,

Same to you Lebowski

Thanks for taking the time to provide a thoughtful response. I think you make some good points that we both can agree on:

• We all want the company to succeed.
• We don't have the worst work rules/pay.
• We don't have the best work rules/pay.
• There's room for improvement with our work rules/pay.
• JBPA, and unions in general, will not fix all issues with work rules/pay.
• It is unrealistic to expect the JBPA or any other union to fix all our issues and to make everyone happy.
• Overall, JetBlue management has done a good job of running the organization.
• Overall, JetBlue management is not "the enemy" (as they have characterized the JBPA).

I support the above 100% well said

• Senior management could change at any time.
• This company could be bought at any time.

That is true; however, to most we have to worry about is not a change in management rather another pilot group and their representation to take us to the cleaners. With the exception of the USAir and AWA merger, which is somewhat of a fluke that will most like not be repeated, fact is that numbers rule nothing else the bigger group is also the winner takes all regardless of your Union representation. (TWA/AA, Republic/NW, Delta/NW, etc.) So, who do you think would merge with us? At 2000+ strong we most likely will be the smaller group and take it in the shorts regardless if we have JBPA or not. Heck we take ALPA and it is a forgone conclusion. But let’s assume we get new management and we get treated badly we could have a union with in 6 months. So if need be we are not without a voice or means to respond appropriately. In the meantime I would like to give Dave the opportunity to make this the best and most profitable airline in the industry to ensure my job security. He has and is doing a great job why mess with things that work.
From my perspective the three main advantages of unionizing are:

1. We formalize our agreement going forward. Work rules/pay cannot simply be changed on a dime. Yes, this goes both ways, which leads to point number 2.

2. We finally get to negotiate for our work rules/pay. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one on the PVC (or anywhere else) is negotiating on our behalf. In other words, we take what we are given. I simply fail to see why, as career employees, negotiating is such a bad idea.

Have you approached Dave and asked him about his position to a CBA and a mechanism to negotiate with out the NMB or a Union on our property? It is my understanding we could have a CBA without a Union. Negotiating is not bad at all as long as you have a strong position or have something the other side can not do without. But realistically, what do we have as pilot we would not give up in order to maintain our seniority and the associated pay. Don’t we all have the golden handcuffs on; preventing us from actually taking a stand for the profession? Yes you are right; the PVC does function as an advisory committee rather than a negotiations agency. But I do not believe a Union will not be able to do much more for us. Hence, pensions- and scope- disappear, pay-rates, work-rules, and benefits are traded for new airplane, and combined seniority lists. All the while we are facing the real possibility of losing our job and starting over at the bottom. Professional company negotiators know that and use it very skillfully. What is JBPA going to do different that all the other Unions to not end-up in the same lose-lose corner with the rest of the Pilot Unions and Associations? JB has treated me mostly nor always with fairness and respect. This is much more than I can say about 14 years under so called “Union Protection”.

3. We put ourselves in a better bargaining position if (when) JetBlue is bought by a larger company. (I simply don't believe that our company-provided merger protection language for our individual contracts would be stronger than what we could achieve for ourselves as a collective unit.)

Seemy response above.

And finally, yes, I understand that I have a contract with the company. More imporantly, we don't have a contract with the company. Strength in numbers is a given. That's why CBAs exist in this industry. That's why CBAs exist in other industries. That's why police departments, fire departments, teachers, nurses, etc., tend to unionize.

But don’t we all have the same contract and doesn’t that making it our contract? I don’t want to get into the weeds and discuss other Unions. Unfortunately, to our detriment, comparing Pilot Unions with other groups of organized labor is like that orange and apple thing.

My philosophy is that we are professionals, and we should take pride in doing great work for the company. I know I do. However, we are also labor, and therefore something of a commodity. I don't forget that, either.

I agree.

Thanks again for the civil debate.

The same here, sorry it took me a while, been busy with house, wife, and the kids. You might know I get more me time on the road than at home.
Happy Holidays.

Lebowski

 

[BrokenWing]

#2 was changed with no notice at all, obviously. I believe the previous poster used the "changed via email" as an illustration of any change that is made outside of the scope of our PEAs with little or no notice.

#3 and the subsiquent contract was forced upon us. The vast majority of the pilots here feel that this was a very poor decision.

Forced? I didn't sign; I still have a job.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Forced? I didn't sign; I still have a job.

So you believed there would be no retribution and you signed.

I was "forced" to make a decision: to give up PTS or give up a year 4 320 FO pay raise.

Just imagine the amendment with pay raises AND the preservation of PTS. Wow, did they burn a lot of goodwill with that one.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Have you approached Dave and asked him about his position to a CBA and a mechanism to negotiate with out the NMB or a Union on our property?

Seriously? Let me guess: you email senior leadership every time a gate agent interrupts your Before Start Checklist.

Sorry -- I shouldn't be that flippant, it's just that I don't see the benefit of that type of communication and never have. Oh and I'm full of wodka.

BTW -- Dave could have made improvements to our contract after the NMB filing -- it is my understanding that he chose the other option -- to keep our contract as is.

Rez: you know what I'm talkin' 'bout?

 

[bluesideup340]

Seriously? Let me guess: you email senior leadership every time a gate agent interrupts your Before Start Checklist.

Sorry -- I shouldn't be that flippant, it's just that I don't see the benefit of that type of communication and never have. Oh and I'm full of wodka.

BTW -- Dave could have made improvements to our contract after the NMB filing -- it is my understanding that he chose the other option -- to keep our contract as is.

Rez: you know what I'm talkin' 'bout?

Hello Bavarian Chef
Happy Holidays to you and the family.
I will leave the first part of your post alone and ride it off as the result of large consumption of vodka.

However, the company is not able, or allowed by the NMB, to make any changes to our contract or work rules until the election is over. Otherwise the argument could be made the company used unfair practices to undermine the union drive. The NMB has a name for this condition, which for the life of me I can’t remember, but in any case JB is not allowed to change anything until this is over. I hope that answers your question.

 

[bluesideup340]

1) 10 hour rest rule. Maybe a good change for operational integrity, but a bad change for productivity, which already is suffering severely.

2) General pairing productivity. Again, maybe good for operational integrity, but it is an effective pay cut and QOL decrease.

3) PTS. Don't make me explain this one.

OK. How and what should be changed, taking your examples? And I am serious I really want to know your particular solutions to these issues.

 

[bluesideup340]

Let me guess. You think we should just give the company another 90 days to make things right. Well if you believe that then don't forget to leave cookies and milk out on the table for the fat man in a red suit.

Now that is funny,
Thanks for ruining it for me. I guess I need more eggnog to kill the pain after you told me there is not Santa.
Happy Holidays

 

[Splert]

Hello Bavarian Chef
Happy Holidays to you and the family.
I will leave the first part of your post alone and ride it off as the result of large consumption of vodka.

However, the company is not able, or allowed by the NMB, to make any changes to our contract or work rules until the election is over. Otherwise the argument could be made the company used unfair practices to undermine the union drive. The NMB has a name for this condition, which for the life of me I can’t remember, but in any case JB is not allowed to change anything until this is over. I hope that answers your question.

They had the chance while JBPA was collecting cards. JBPA has also informed management that the orgainizing committee is not opposed to improvements before the election. They sent a letter to PVC and Dave.

Management is bluffing. It is a standard tactic and pilots usually fall for it.

If JBPA fails to win the election in about 1-year everyone will be asking 'what happened to the improvements" promised before the election.

Management will look in the card file of canned responses and pull out: "that was then this is now and times are different. We are growing/shrinking" and those improvements were not promised just that we would look at them and in fact we did and discovered they would have harmed our ability to react to changes in the market place".

 

[727Niteflyer]

just wait till one day you get a bean counter in managment that thinks pilots are way overpaid and underworked.

He will start with pay, benefits, cancel vacation because pilots already enjoy a lot of time off.

Than he will use words like efficiency, productivity and utilization. And how training is non productive. And look for ways to get more productivity out of the labor.

He will then look at the nice hotels you stay at. Soon you will be staying in comfort inns, clarions and Laquintas.

soon you will have no benefits, no vacations, and work more for the same money. Your layovers will be garbage.

Other managment will hail him has a hero because he is saving so much money. he will enjoy bonuses at your expense.

And then you will look at your fellow aviators and say, "Sh&t we should have voted in a union".

 

[waveflyer]

Well said. It's not just about what's right, right now. It's about protection from what may come. Doesn't mean the culture has to go. And it doesn't mean you can't be flexible. But to collectively bargain, w/o a union is naive.
Goes for VA and SKYW as well.

 

[linepilot]

just wait till one day you get a bean counter in managment that thinks pilots are way overpaid and underworked.

He will start with pay, benefits, cancel vacation because pilots already enjoy a lot of time off.

Than he will use words like efficiency, productivity and utilization. And how training is non productive. And look for ways to get more productivity out of the labor.

He will then look at the nice hotels you stay at. Soon you will be staying in comfort inns, clarions and Laquintas.

soon you will have no benefits, no vacations, and work more for the same money. Your layovers will be garbage.

Other managment will hail him has a hero because he is saving so much money. he will enjoy bonuses at your expense.

And then you will look at your fellow aviators and say, "Sh&t we should have voted in a union".

Jetblue pilots don't have any benefits NOW and it will get worse with the CURRENT management.

 

[727Niteflyer]

of course jetblue pilots have benefits. Paid time off, sick time, a 401k. All of which will come under attack when the bean counter shows up. If you dont have a union he will do alot of damage. And when you are forced to get a union you will be fighting to get back items that you enjoy now. 1 bean counter can do years of damage.

 

[bluesideup340]

Craig Hoskins’ message to JB pilots on Union drive. Sure for all Radical True Union Believers this is just management propaganda. However, the issues and questions he raises are real how about some answers from JBPA instead of empty promises to solve all our problems. So fire away, here it goes:

“Obviously, the big event coming up that’s on everyone’s mind is the union election. The National Mediation Board will mail out voter instructions on January 6, and the voting period is between January 6 and February 3. I’d like to take a moment to clarify some huge misconceptions that are out there – I respect your right to choose representation, but you need to have the right information to make an informed choice, and I’m afraid there is a campaign afoot to spread wrong information.

First – IF a union is voted in, everything about your current working agreement is negotiable. There is no guarantee that the company will begin first contract negotiations from a position of status quo – and there’s no obligation to do so.

Second – Negotiating a first contract is traditionally a pretty expensive thing to do. How does JBPA propose to pay for that? Also – running committees is pretty expensive, too, and if a union is voted in, that cost is borne by the union. Today, we spend around $1 million a year to run committees, and that number was projected to go up with the permanent working committee structure. If JBPA is voted in, JBPA pays for those committees. How much in dues does JBPA have to collect to support these committees? It may not be so much of a question about dues – you’re choosing to either hire a representative or not, so you know it’s going to cost you money if you choose JBPA. I’m raising this issue because there seems to be an unsophisticated appreciation for what it takes to run a union among certain people. If your union doesn’t know what it takes, you have no idea how much it will really cost you individually.

And finally – there remains an assumption that if the union doesn’t work out, then JetBlue Pilots can simply return to non-union status. This is the one of the most significant inaccuracies. If JBPA is voted in, and at some point in the future you feel it’s not working out, you really don’t have a lot of choices. The National Mediation Board does not have a “decertification” process per se. Historically speaking, once a union is on the property, it or something like it is here to stay."

 

[PCL_128]

If you're spending $1 million to run these fake "committees," then tons of money is being flushed down the toilet. I'm sure the JBPA will be far more efficient.

As for decertification, it's just as easy as this election you're about to have. Turn in your cards again, and tell everyone not to vote. If less than 50% votes, then the union is decertified. Pretty simple.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

More lies by management spread as truth....

Recall Neeleman planted deep seated anti union seeds....

Who do you trust? Yourselves or someone else?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Craig Hoskins’ message to JB pilots on Union drive. Sure for all Radical True Union Believers this is just management propaganda. However, the issues and questions he raises are real how about some answers from JBPA instead of empty promises to solve all our problems. So fire away, here it goes:

“Obviously, the big event coming up that’s on everyone’s mind is the union election. The National Mediation Board will mail out voter instructions on January 6, and the voting period is between January 6 and February 3. I’d like to take a moment to clarify some huge misconceptions that are out there – I respect your right to choose representation, but you need to have the right information to make an informed choice, and I’m afraid there is a campaign afoot to spread wrong information.

First – IF a union is voted in, everything about your current working agreement is negotiable. There is no guarantee that the company will begin first contract negotiations from a position of status quo – and there’s no obligation to do so.

Second – Negotiating a first contract is traditionally a pretty expensive thing to do. How does JBPA propose to pay for that? Also – running committees is pretty expensive, too, and if a union is voted in, that cost is borne by the union. Today, we spend around $1 million a year to run committees, and that number was projected to go up with the permanent working committee structure. If JBPA is voted in, JBPA pays for those committees. How much in dues does JBPA have to collect to support these committees? It may not be so much of a question about dues – you’re choosing to either hire a representative or not, so you know it’s going to cost you money if you choose JBPA. I’m raising this issue because there seems to be an unsophisticated appreciation for what it takes to run a union among certain people. If your union doesn’t know what it takes, you have no idea how much it will really cost you individually.

And finally – there remains an assumption that if the union doesn’t work out, then JetBlue Pilots can simply return to non-union status. This is the one of the most significant inaccuracies. If JBPA is voted in, and at some point in the future you feel it’s not working out, you really don’t have a lot of choices. The National Mediation Board does not have a “decertification” process per se. Historically speaking, once a union is on the property, it or something like it is here to stay."

You may want to check out the CBB and see what it says about posting stuff like this on the internet.

The first point kills me -- so JB management would want to negotiate away stuff we already have? Really? So sure about that? That would kill the culture, and it would certainly kill any remaining doubt as to what the company really cares about.

But hey, you'd have the UNION to blame. Kinda like telling your kid that he MADE you hit him.

Point two: a million to run committees that do what?

I love to hear FOs tell me that Captain such-n-such is running around telling them JB is gonna furlough if a union is voted in. Once again, really? One day, no union, no furloughs. Next day, union, furloughs. Is that how it works?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

December 30, 2008 International airlines saw a huge 13.5 percent fall in cargo traffic in November and a drop of 4.6 percent in passengers as business shrank across the industry, the carriers' grouping IATA said on Tuesday.
The figures, reflecting what IATA has dubbed a "chronic crisis" with revenues tumbling and hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk, marked the sharpest declines since the months after the September 2001 attacks in the United States.
"The 13.5 percent drop in international cargo is shocking," said Giovanni Bisignani, Director General of the body, the International Air Transport Association which represents airlines operating 93 percent of cross-border flights.
"As air cargo handles 35 percent of the value of goods traded internationally, it clearly shows the rapid fall in global trade and the broadening impact of the economic slowdown," he declared.
"The industry is now shrinking by all measures."
Although airlines had cut flight numbers by 1 percent in November in anticipation of falling demand, the actual drop in passengers had left planes operating with nearly 27 percent of seats empty against only 24 percent in November 2007.
"We can expect deep losses in the fourth quarter," said Bisignani, who earlier this month forecast that total balance sheet deficits in 2008 of its some 230 members across the globe would reach USD$5 billion by the end of the year.
The November figures, issued from IATA's Geneva headquarters, showed airlines in the Asia-Pacific area -- which accounts for nearly 45 percent of global air freight -- seeing the largest regional cargo traffic drop, a whopping 16.9 percent.
Asia-Pacific, which includes the previously rapidly expanding China market, saw a decline of 9.7 percent in passenger numbers, also more than any other of the six world regions that IATA reports on separately.
Carriers in North America -- which includes the United States, Canada and Mexico -- saw a decline of 14.4 percent in cargo and 4.8 percent in passengers, the last, IATA said, reflecting the near-collapse of the investment banking sector.
Europe recorded an 11 percent slump in cargo and 3.4 percent in passengers as the major markets for its airlines -- intra-continental, the North Atlantic and Asia -- all sunk deeper into economic woes.
At the start of December, IATA forecast that industry losses in 2009 were likely to total some USD$2.5 billion, despite a boost from falling oil prices after the spike in the middle of 2008 which had hit carriers hard.
Commenting on the Tuesday figures, Bisignani did not suggest any revision of that prediction.
But he said the overall economic gloom reflected by the November statistics would carry over into the coming year. "The industry is back in intensive care. Improved efficiency everywhere will be the theme for 2009," he declared.

(Reuters)

And we'll be negotiating our first concessionary contract under these circumstances...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

December 30, 2008 International airlines saw a huge 13.5 percent fall in cargo traffic in November and a drop of 4.6 percent in passengers as business shrank across the industry, the carriers' grouping IATA said on Tuesday.
The figures, reflecting what IATA has dubbed a "chronic crisis" with revenues tumbling and hundreds of thousands of jobs at risk, marked the sharpest declines since the months after the September 2001 attacks in the United States.
"The 13.5 percent drop in international cargo is shocking," said Giovanni Bisignani, Director General of the body, the International Air Transport Association which represents airlines operating 93 percent of cross-border flights.
"As air cargo handles 35 percent of the value of goods traded internationally, it clearly shows the rapid fall in global trade and the broadening impact of the economic slowdown," he declared.
"The industry is now shrinking by all measures."
Although airlines had cut flight numbers by 1 percent in November in anticipation of falling demand, the actual drop in passengers had left planes operating with nearly 27 percent of seats empty against only 24 percent in November 2007.
"We can expect deep losses in the fourth quarter," said Bisignani, who earlier this month forecast that total balance sheet deficits in 2008 of its some 230 members across the globe would reach USD$5 billion by the end of the year.
The November figures, issued from IATA's Geneva headquarters, showed airlines in the Asia-Pacific area -- which accounts for nearly 45 percent of global air freight -- seeing the largest regional cargo traffic drop, a whopping 16.9 percent.
Asia-Pacific, which includes the previously rapidly expanding China market, saw a decline of 9.7 percent in passenger numbers, also more than any other of the six world regions that IATA reports on separately.
Carriers in North America -- which includes the United States, Canada and Mexico -- saw a decline of 14.4 percent in cargo and 4.8 percent in passengers, the last, IATA said, reflecting the near-collapse of the investment banking sector.
Europe recorded an 11 percent slump in cargo and 3.4 percent in passengers as the major markets for its airlines -- intra-continental, the North Atlantic and Asia -- all sunk deeper into economic woes.
At the start of December, IATA forecast that industry losses in 2009 were likely to total some USD$2.5 billion, despite a boost from falling oil prices after the spike in the middle of 2008 which had hit carriers hard.
Commenting on the Tuesday figures, Bisignani did not suggest any revision of that prediction.
But he said the overall economic gloom reflected by the November statistics would carry over into the coming year. "The industry is back in intensive care. Improved efficiency everywhere will be the theme for 2009," he declared.

(Reuters)

And we'll be negotiating our first concessionary contract under these circumstances...

You are of course, assuming we didn't make money in 2008 ...

And disregarding the fact that many think we are already under a concessionary contract.