Picken's $700 Billion Plan

[Secret Squirrel]

I'd be fine with T Boone if he would use his own money for the project!!

Nobody actually uses their own money. Rich people come up with a successful plan and get many investors to spread out the risk ( and also to share in the potential profits). Havn't you ever read Rich dad poor dad?

 

[skydash]

Learn to spell

No they are not down for that reason. There was an unexpected build in inventories. Remember a few months back when Saudi said they will be increasing production by 700000 barrels a day? After that announcement, the price basically went up.

Your full of crap.

The reason it matters is because the drill, drill, drill croud keeps saying that it will lower our dependance on foriegn oil. Well if our demand stays the same, and some of that new oil is shipped over seas, then you still have to import the same amount.

It is also miss leading to say things like ANWR would supply 5% of US consumption because it implies that the affect on our gas price would be at least a 5% savings. Well oil is priced based on world supply and demand. So it would add only about 1% to world supply, and would have a negligable affect on oil prices.

ANWR at its peak would produce about a million barrels per day. Sounds awful close the the 700K barrels the Saudis pledged to increase. When the price went up.

Keep spreading the half truths.

How can you possibly expect ANYONE to take your points seriously when you can't even spell? Geez...

 

[skydash]

After reading Pickens plan,I have a few questions...
$1.2 trillion dollars to substitute wind power for natural gas electric production. Then we run our cars on natural gas. OK. My car doesn't run on natural gas and I have no idea where I could purchase natural gas if it did. So we need to build a nationwide natural gas distribution network. How much is this going to cost? Then large numbers of us have to buy natural gas cars, which no manufacturer sells because there are few natural gas stations - see chicken and egg. I am going to assume maintenance on hundreds of thousands of wind turbines spread across the great plains will be roughly equal to that on additional nuclear and coal plants with the same electrical capacity. For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down. Reliable base load, small footprint, clean, proven technology, close to end users, not subject to ice storms, tornados, floods, and lack of breeze. Picken's Plan sounds like another enormous government boondoggle/fleecing of taxpayers that has no advantages over existing technology but lots of disadvantages. Just build more power plants and drill for oil and gas. Why is this so complicated?

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

As for where to get natural gas? Lots of people (including me) have natural gas heat. Honda has a device that sits in your garage and pumps the natural gas into your car (the Honda Civic ng version).

Saying that no distribution system (for hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) is s showstopper is ignorant.

When gasoline powered cars came out (the "Alternative Fuel" of that era), there was no distribution system for gasoline. We built refineries, pipelines, gas stations, roads, motels and drive-thrus.

If we want to, we can build a distribution system for hydrogen, or whatever else we want.

Can we burn gasoline our cars 250 years from now? No. It's a dead end.

The sooner we switch to renewables, the better off we'll be.

cliff
YIP

 

[coolyokeluke]

You're either a flame baiter or a simpleton. The idea is that you reduce petroleum demand by alternatives and that will leave more oil to be made into JetA.

Many city buses run on natural gas. It's not an exotic technology.

There is no more cheap, easy to get oil. There is plenty of oil out there, but it's deeper, more viscous, sulpher laden, in smaller deposits, etc. The world has not located a major oil field in many many years, and most of the major fields are in decline. It is past time to be looking at alternative ways of doing things.[/quote]

If you believe that line of BS then I think you should try to find a NEW career!

Aviation accounts for about 5% of world oil consumption. If we switch other forms of transportation and energy production to alternatives there will be enough to keep me flying for a while. If.

Here's something to ponder:
Obviously, the easiest, most economical solution is to find new giant or super giant oilfields where large volumes of oil can be extracted and brought to world markets at low cost. That is just what is not the case today. According to a recent report from the Colorado School of Mines, 'The World's Giant Oilfields,' the world's '120 largest oilfields produce close to 33 million barrels a day, almost 50% of the world's crude oil supply. The fourteen largest account for over 20%. The average age of these 14 largest fields is 43.5 years.' 1
The above study concludes that 'most of the world's true giants were found decades ago.' Over the past 20 years despite investment of hundreds of billions dollars by major oil companies, results have been alarmingly disappointing.
The world's major oil companies - Exxon-Mobil, Shell, ChevronTexaco, BP, ElfTotal and others - have invested hundreds of billions of dollars in finding enough oil to replace the existing oil supply sources. Between 1996 and 1999, some 145 companies spent $410 billion to find enough oil only to keep their daily production stable at 30 million barrels a day. From 1999 to 2002, the five largest companies spent another $150 billion and their production grew only from 16 million barrels a day to 16.6 million barrels, a tiny increase

 

[Cheeta]

After reading Pickens plan,I have a few questions...
$1.2 trillion dollars to substitute wind power for natural gas electric production. Then we run our cars on natural gas. OK. My car doesn't run on natural gas and I have no idea where I could purchase natural gas if it did. So we need to build a nationwide natural gas distribution network. How much is this going to cost? Then large numbers of us have to buy natural gas cars, which no manufacturer sells because there are few natural gas stations - see chicken and egg. I am going to assume maintenance on hundreds of thousands of wind turbines spread across the great plains will be roughly equal to that on additional nuclear and coal plants with the same electrical capacity. For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down. Reliable base load, small footprint, clean, proven technology, close to end users, not subject to ice storms, tornados, floods, and lack of breeze. Picken's Plan sounds like another enormous government boondoggle/fleecing of taxpayers that has no advantages over existing technology but lots of disadvantages. Just build more power plants and drill for oil and gas. Why is this so complicated?

The plan calls for 25% to 30% of all cars and trucks to be CNG in 5 to 7 years.

All domestic diesel trucks can be converted to CNG ...EPA approved kits available NOW!

Ford and Chevy both make and have made CNG Cars and Trucks, both come with $4000.00 Tax credit and most states have $2000.00 to $4000.00 cash after purchases.

Now the Honda Civic GX ....they will make 1800 this year...on the same Ohio assembly line as the regular Honda Civic car. This is 98% the same car. They can build as many as they want NOW! http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

1800 public CNG fueling stations and 2500 more sim-private stations....they will give you an access card. $0.91 to $2.40 per gal. Google map it!

EPA approved home fueling station that hangs on the wall of your garage and hooks up to the natural gas that comes in to your home or that is at the curb of 75% of all homes in America...Cost ...$1500.00 after tax credit and makes CNG for $1.25 a gal.

This country could change over 25% to 35% to CNG in just a few years...we have 60 years of known Natural gas reserves. This will cut CO2 emissions 30%!

I just ordered a 2009 Honda Civic GX...I got $9600.00 of federal state and YES local cash and tax breaks....Austin TX

 

[rajflyboy]

Hi!

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

As for where to get natural gas? Lots of people (including me) have natural gas heat. Honda has a device that sits in your garage and pumps the natural gas into your car (the Honda Civic ng version).

Saying that no distribution system (for hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) is s showstopper is ignorant.

When gasoline powered cars came out (the "Alternative Fuel" of that era), there was no distribution system for gasoline. We built refineries, pipelines, gas stations, roads, motels and drive-thrus.

If we want to, we can build a distribution system for hydrogen, or whatever else we want.

Can we burn gasoline our cars 250 years from now? No. It's a dead end.

The sooner we switch to renewables, the better off we'll be.

cliff
YIP

Gas is 4 dollars a gallon right now. This is causing prices to rise at the grocery store and other places.

We need relief Today. Not a year or two from now. Sure.. we should continue to work on new technology. That technology is not going to lower gas prices today. Its a year or two off Minimum.

We have plenty of oil left here in the USA. Its estimated that the LAX region has 9 billion barrels. Thats not even counting the Rocky Mountain Region, Anwar or Offshore sights.

I don't see Natural Gas distribution sights going up all over the place. Its not happening.

You are still dreaming.

We have plenty of oil and lets go get it and reduce our dependency on Middle East Europe.

Shoot... looks just this week.. Bush stops the executive ban on offshore drilling and Bingo... look at what happened to the price of a barrel of oil? It went down.

 

[Freeze_gopher]

After reading Pickens plan,I have a few questions...
$1.2 trillion dollars to substitute wind power for natural gas electric production. Then we run our cars on natural gas. OK. My car doesn't run on natural gas and I have no idea where I could purchase natural gas if it did. So we need to build a nationwide natural gas distribution network. How much is this going to cost? Then large numbers of us have to buy natural gas cars, which no manufacturer sells because there are few natural gas stations - see chicken and egg. I am going to assume maintenance on hundreds of thousands of wind turbines spread across the great plains will be roughly equal to that on additional nuclear and coal plants with the same electrical capacity. For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down. Reliable base load, small footprint, clean, proven technology, close to end users, not subject to ice storms, tornados, floods, and lack of breeze. Picken's Plan sounds like another enormous government boondoggle/fleecing of taxpayers that has no advantages over existing technology but lots of disadvantages. Just build more power plants and drill for oil and gas. Why is this so complicated?

You are asking a very logical question. I haven't read this entire thread so someone may have brought this up already.

Why is it so complicated? It's a sales pitch! Nothing more. T. Boone Pickens is an oil man and runs a very large investment company. The frenzy in believing that the oil industry is crashing around our heads is meant to increase the value of energy related investments.

Don't believe me? Here’s where T Boone is making his money:


Hmmmmmmmmm?

 

[coolyokeluke]

Gas is 4 dollars a gallon right now. This is causing prices to rise at the grocery store and other places.

We need relief Today. Not a year or two from now. Sure.. we should continue to work on new technology. That technology is not going to lower gas prices today. Its a year or two off Minimum.

We have plenty of oil left here in the USA. Its estimated that the LAX region has 9 billion barrels. Thats not even counting the Rocky Mountain Region, Anwar or Offshore sights.

I don't see Natural Gas distribution sights going up all over the place. Its not happening.

You are still dreaming.

We have plenty of oil and lets go get it and reduce our dependency on Middle East Europe.

Shoot... looks just this week.. Bush stops the executive ban on offshore drilling and Bingo... look at what happened to the price of a barrel of oil? It went down.

More misconceptions. As mentioned before, estimated reserves include all oil, not just economically feasable recovery oil. It also takes a long time to permit, find, test drill, establish production, and bring to market new oil and gas reserves. The oil companies have leases on a lot of areas that they haven't explored or tested right now. There's nothing stopping them from working those areas except for expending resources to do so. Didn't you notice when the Saudis agreed to increase supply of oil by 200k bbl and then 700k bbl a day? The markets didn't respond in a downward direction. Unfortunately there is no "right now" solution. I'm not happy about it anymore than anybody else, I'm going to the right seat because of oil prices.

Natural gas is available and many sources, such as where you fill up your cylinder for the grill. There are public pumps in many locations such as your local airport. Are you going to keep arguing the chicken and egg scenario and therefore be stuck with what we have until it's completely economically unfeasible? Existing vehicles can be converted to run on natural gas. And check out the Honda website, you can fill your car from your natural gas supply at home that you use for your range.

And the executive ban on offshore drilling? That is symbolic right now because Congress still has to lift their ban for the presidential measure to any effect at all. The downward trend in oil prices is because of investor fears over the slowing world economy and the unexpectedly large increase in US inventories.

 

[Soverytired]

Hi!

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

As for where to get natural gas? Lots of people (including me) have natural gas heat. Honda has a device that sits in your garage and pumps the natural gas into your car (the Honda Civic ng version).

Saying that no distribution system (for hydrogen, natural gas, whatever) is s showstopper is ignorant.

When gasoline powered cars came out (the "Alternative Fuel" of that era), there was no distribution system for gasoline. We built refineries, pipelines, gas stations, roads, motels and drive-thrus.

If we want to, we can build a distribution system for hydrogen, or whatever else we want.

Can we burn gasoline our cars 250 years from now? No. It's a dead end.

The sooner we switch to renewables, the better off we'll be.

cliff
YIP

Yes and no (good post, BTW). Oil is only a "dead end" once it becomes prohibitively expensive. It certainly hasn't been a "dead end" as it fueled the last 100 years of prosperity and growth unheard of in all of human history. I don't think it's there yet.

That said, once it becomes too expensive, I'm convinced that natural gas WILL be the next mass trasportation fuel. All the other options are just pipe dreams and government boondoggles; natural gas is an extremely easy switch-over fuel.

That Honda Civic is AWESOME. Fill up at home, costs about 1/10th to fill up compared to current gas prices. Neat.

Oh . . there will NEVER be a hydrogen distribution system. To say otherwise IS ignorant. No point haggling over details, but hydrogen as anything other than a specialized energy carrier is a fantasy.

 

[blueridge71]

Nuke Power is great. No doubt. The problem is, the tree huggers hold up the approval process to build Nuke power plants. The other problem is the fact that it will take years to build them.

That is why we need to drill now: To allow time to get our nuclear infrastructure caught up to our power demands.

Oil is a short term power supply at this point. I've been hearing lately that that could have oil flowing from continental shelf in as little as two years because of a lot of the exploration was done prior the ban.

 

[blueridge71]

Skydash, I just want to point out that you have a quote attributed to me at the top of this page that I did not write. Not sure why it has my name on it.

 

[blzr]

Why is it so complicated? Because drilling for more gas and oil and building more coal and nuclear plants are all dead ends. The energy source will run out, and they money is wasted. That saying, we DO need more nuclear plants in the short-term, to help us bridge from oil/coal to renewables.

I had to laugh at this one. the earth makes oil and coal EVERY DAY!!

I heard a mine engineer make a funny about a year ago. He told our group that we definately need to start looking for alternatives to "CLEAN" coal. Someone asked him "Why"? He said that at our current rate of mining, and it is FAST PACED, that Thunder basin would play out between 200 and 300 years from now.

Environmentalists wako's!! gotta luv'em.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Where did you get an education from?

Do you realize how many Windmills it would take to Power NYC?

Um... Windmills don't supply electrical power.
Windmills grind grain into flour. (dumbass)


To address your question.
NYC electrical power requirements vary from 4-5GW (that's billions of watts).

Using a baseline 5MW wind turbine, 1000 of them. 500 if the upgrade is made to 10MW turbines.
So, assuming 4 acres/per turbine, a 4k acre plot will do nicely.

CE

 

[Bai B Nai]

Those of you with the any assets might want to consider foreign investing to protect your portfolio a la Peter Schiff and EuroPacific Capital.
His comments the past two years seem extremely prescient.
Check out his firm and/or his book.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1_Yo2BGdUk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw5E-47Uq7k


Don't hesitate. Work to protect yourself now.

 

[vetteracer]

ANWR is about 60 miles from the pipline. They could have that stretch built in 2 months. They built the entire Alaska pipeline in 2 years. 30 billion just over the sites in ANWR that have been explored.

That oil does go to Japan, and Japan in return buys oil from Mexico or Canada for us. It's a matter of shipping, but things may have changed in the last ten years!! as of 94 that was the deal.

And for any of you that have never been to ANWR this is how you get there. NOT LIKE THE PICTURES FROM THE LIB NEWS.

Oil from Alaska ( NON ANWR, we can't drill there, it a park you know!!) So if you are thinking about taking the Family there for some outdoor fun, here is how you get there. Here is the road called the Dalton Highway or by locals known as the HAUL road. When I lived in AK, it was not open to the public. Only commercial vehicles. SO, if you want to go to ANWR and have a pick nick here is how you get there.
You start here !!! Note the road, this is the best part of the road, you can do at least 45-55 and make some good time.

Here is the fist hill, looks like no problem right, that hill is over a mile long and near vertical. The guy driving that truck is going about 75 so he can make it up the other side. I know, I was in the pass. seat. I was 8.

Oh, and it is just the start of the hills, or grades.
A truck would get one round trip on a set of tires.

Then you come to the Brooks Range. Here is the start. The grades here are worse then the above pics.

If you are in the range before June1st or after August 1st. You risk this
Look in the very back of the pic, see the spilt in the trees, that the road, a near vertical grade.

The Haul Road, Late August. Note a spare truck and 150 gal. of fuel and a snow blower. Don't want to be stranded here.

If you get stuck in by weather at ANWR, this is how you get back home to Prudhoe Bay. Since it is still light, this pic was probably taken in Sept.

Here is a test site at ANWR. Again around Sept/oct.

Here is a rig at Prudhoe Bay, again around Oct. NOTE, no Beautiful Mountains, no pristine streams, or meadows it's a barren waste land of frozen tundra.

HERE is the best of it all. The Canadians are Drilling into ANWR from there side of the border, at a 45 degree angle and pumping it out. HAAAA the jokes on us !!!!

 

[rajflyboy]

Um... Windmills don't supply electrical power.
Windmills grind grain into flour. (dumbass)


To address your question.
NYC electrical power requirements vary from 4-5GW (that's billions of watts).

Using a baseline 5MW wind turbine, 1000 of them. 500 if the upgrade is made to 10MW turbines.
So, assuming 4 acres/per turbine, a 4k acre plot will do nicely.

CE

If you believe those statistics... I have some great land on a steep hillside I am willing to sell you cheap!!

 

[Poahi]

Um... Windmills don't supply electrical power.
Windmills grind grain into flour. (dumbass)
CE

Comon guys, windmill is a verb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkLK35RKS2E&feature=related

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

If you believe those statistics... I have some great land on a steep hillside I am willing to sell you cheap!!

Tell me, troll of trolls, which stats are incorrect?

Oh, that's right, you're just trolling.

The bridge is this way-------------->

CE

 

[Mr.B]

I don't see Natural Gas distribution sights going up all over the place. Its not happening.



You can fill the car from home......wake up, it's not a dream.

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=847

 

[400pilot]

So it would add only about 1% to world supply, and would have a negligable affect on oil prices.

You have been saying this over and over again yet are missing one simple point. It is not a proportional change in price. For example, over the last 10 years, the world has increased consumption 2 million bpd over supply. If you take out the artificial highs from speculating and assume a real demand cost of $65 per barrel, then you have a 100% increase in price over a 2%-3% increase in consumption. Adding 1%-3% in supply will have an affect on prices....regardless of where it is sold.

 

[Wesb737fo]

Seriously....how can you not like a guy willing to ride on a nuclear missile dropped from an Air Force bomber?

Oh...wait.....I think that was Slim Pickens....nevermind


C'mon....eight pages of posts and no T.Boone/Slim Pickens Dr. Strangelove jokes!

 

[Smarta$$]

HERE is the best of it all. The Canadians are Drilling into ANWR from there side of the border, at a 45 degree angle and pumping it out. HAAAA the jokes on us !!!!

Here is the dumbest part of your whole load of crapp. If the Canadians are drilling it, then that oil is going into the worlds supply and demand equation. It doesn't matter if it is US oil, or canadian oil, or saudi oil. It is a world supply and demand formula.

What is the current retail price for a barrel of US oil? Didn't think so. The only people in the US that would directly benefit is oil companies and there employees.

 

[Hank Hill]

It's fairly simple. Use what infrastructures and technology that are already in place...

1. Nuclear power for the grid (produce hydrogen at night...like the FRENCH)
2. Natural gas for the cars (plenty of it/cheap/clean)
3. Kerosene for the jets.

You can thank me later.

Dude, did you just say that natural gas is plentiful and cheap??? LMAO!!

The price has doubled over the past year and production in North America is basically peaking now. Or will in the next few years. Now imagine what will happen if you introduce a gargantuan new source of demand for this fuel (personal automobiles).

Can you say price shocks and shortages?

Wake the heck up and take a reality check, will ya?

 

[Hank Hill]

For $1.2 trillion, we can have 240 nuclear plants at $5 billion a piece. Nuclear power wins this contest hands down.

Where are you going to get the uranium?

Uranium is in serious shortage. In fact, it's in much greater shortage than oil since the world produces enough oil to meet world crude demand every year, but only produces 60% of the annual uranium demand. The shortfall is made up from inventories, decomissioned old Soviet nukes, etc.

You may also have noticed the price of uranium skyrocketed by well over 1,000 percent in the first 7 years of this decade as this shortfall situation has become more apparent. It has since had a sharp correction, but you can bet after it consolidates awhile it will climb skyward again. Especially if you were to announce massive new orders of nuke plants here in the USA!!

So riddle me this Batman. If the world can produce 100% of oil demanded every year, but only 60% of the uranium demanded, wouldn't it make more sense to start shutting down nuclear power plants and replacing them with oil fired plants?

Think before you type, my friend. No one should ever be able to propose nuclear as a solution to the energy crisis without first saying where the uranium will come from!! What are you gonna do, s--t it out?

 

[SkiFishFly]

Where are you going to get the uranium?

Uranium is in serious shortage. In fact, it's in much greater shortage than oil since the world produces enough oil to meet world crude demand every year, but only produces 60% of the annual uranium demand. The shortfall is made up from inventories, decomissioned old Soviet nukes, etc.

You may also have noticed the price of uranium skyrocketed by well over 1,000 percent in the first 7 years of this decade as this shortfall situation has become more apparent. It has since had a sharp correction, but you can bet after it consolidates awhile it will climb skyward again. Especially if you were to announce massive new orders of nuke plants here in the USA!!

So riddle me this Batman. If the world can produce 100% of oil demanded every year, but only 60% of the uranium demanded, wouldn't it make more sense to start shutting down nuclear power plants and replacing them with oil fired plants?

Think before you type, my friend. No one should ever be able to propose nuclear as a solution to the energy crisis without first saying where the uranium will come from!! What are you gonna do, s--t it out?

Got any sources (credible) on this one? There is uranium in NM and other places in the US. The mines have been shut down for a while due to lack of US demand.

 

[coolyokeluke]

Dude, did you just say that natural gas is plentiful and cheap??? LMAO!!

The price has doubled over the past year and production in North America is basically peaking now. Or will in the next few years. Now imagine what will happen if you introduce a gargantuan new source of demand for this fuel (personal automobiles).

Can you say price shocks and shortages?

Wake the heck up and take a reality check, will ya?

T Boone Picken's plan is to replace a percentage of the electrical production from natural gas by using wind power. Thus that natural gas would be available to power cars. Not all cars.

 

[coolyokeluke]

HERE is the best of it all. The Canadians are Drilling into ANWR from there side of the border, at a 45 degree angle and pumping it out. HAAAA the jokes on us !!!!

Source? This has as much validity as the Chinese angle drilling off our coasts to steal our oil. I've flown in the Alaska/Canada border Arctic Ocean area, didn't see any oil wells on the Canadian side. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it.

 

[vetteracer]

Here is the dumbest part of your whole load of crapp. If the Canadians are drilling it, then that oil is going into the worlds supply and demand equation. It doesn't matter if it is US oil, or canadian oil, or saudi oil. It is a world supply and demand formula.

What is the current retail price for a barrel of US oil? Didn't think so. The only people in the US that would directly benefit is oil companies and there employees.

They are drilling at a 45* (directional drilling) and they are limited on hitting the "Big pool". So Mr. Smart AZZ I never mentioned that oil was a single US commodity. BUT why are we not in there as well pumping it out. There is only so many rigs (4 to be exact) that the Canadians can get in the location needed to do the directional drilling. The oil pumped out of Alaska would most likely never be refined in the U.S. SO what, it adds to the overall supply. The Canadians are also having logistical problmems getting the oil shipped out. They trans-Canadian pipeline is not done, so they are limited that way as well. We have a 900 mile pipeline in place, another 58 miles of flat tundra to plug into it! Big deal. It would mean jobs for Americans as well. Go back to your load of crap and eat it.

 

[400pilot]

Here is the dumbest part of your whole load of crapp. If the Canadians are drilling it, then that oil is going into the worlds supply and demand equation.

More rigs = more oil

There is not a finite amount that can be drilled at any given time....of course until its gone...