PFT-Let it fly!

[bigD]

What makes you think you have no business posting on here?

 

[FlyByWire74]

I really just ment this thread, and the fact that i dont even have my PPL yet.. lol

 

[bigD]

Heh! You don't have to have your PPL to have a general interest in the future of this industry. Most of us want to see the profession progress in as positive a way as possible - that's why PFT steps on so many toes.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think the Russian should continue to post, and I mean a lot.

I find his grammar and sentence stucture to be hilarious, and his defense of his position by talking with one person at MESA to be truly revealing. There are good acting books that teach you how to speak and write like this, so it is interesting to see it in practice.

Seriously, without guys like this Russian flame baiter, I'd have little to entertain me here. Maybe he can tell us how to create a wonderful airline, like Aeroflot!

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobby...it would have been a pleasure to have shared a cockpit with you and I have found you to be one of the best posters around.

If you get tired of the BS at this site, come on over to jetcareers...Doug doesn't put up with stuff like this.

Thanks, my friend, the feeling is mutual. It would have been a gas to fly the Convair with you, I'm sure.

I enjoy the discussions here. I've read Doug's board a couple of times, and www.pprune.com a few times. Surprisingly, the discussions are quite similar.

This board is a great resource, and, for someone like me, for whom the aviation hiring (and P-F-T) process was frustrating, has been a real tonic. Too bad that some sociopaths misuse it from time to time, but Mr. Moderator deals with such people fairly.

Keep up the good work.

 

[stillaboo]

The russian moderated out.

Darn, and it was just starting to get entertaining.

 

[Flyforfood]

First of all I'd like to start by saying that there are a thousand ways to do anything involved with aviation. Now that I got that out of the way perhaps Dean won't be so offended by this post. I read one of his which asked the question "if you were an interviewer and had one CFI applicant, and one PFT...." you get the idea. The reason that the CFI would be looked at more favorably in this case is his ability to communicate. Anybody can posses enough skill to take a plane into the sky, and bring it back. Granted some of those people, perhaps even myself, expose themselves to Darwins Law. The fact remains that building time as a CFI not only makes you a better pilot, but it increases your capacity for communication while flying. Being exposed to your sudents' viewpoints, questions, and thoughts make you think in ways that PFT simply cannot provide. So yes Dean, an instructor in a 150 will have greater long term success in a Beech 1900 for two reasons. One, he can retain information and translate it into verbal thoughts. And finally, he has been asked and questioned so much about why airplanes do what they do, to where it forced upon him/her a greater level of understanding which leads to better application through his piloting skills. I'd choose the CFI if I had to hire. I do respect anyone who holds a rating, or even a dream of flying. However, I have seen both sides of the fence, and the CFI, in my opinion, would be the better hire.

Okay who wants the soapbox next? I'm finished.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I'm copying the following excerpt from a post on another forum on the board. It really gets to the heart of the matter.

I'm not paying anybody any money for a job. If they start out treating you like crap, its not likely to improve later on.

Honest to goodness, that is the bottom line about P-F-T.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: P-F-T

I'm copying the following excerpt from a post on another forum on the board. It really gets to the heart of the matter.

"I'm not paying anybody any money for a job. If they start out treating you like crap, its not likely to improve later on."

Honest to goodness, that is the bottom line about P-F-T.

It's too bad that's the bottom line, because it's not universally true.

Except for the fact that I'm not making $150-200K/year like a mainline pilot, my treatment at ASA has been quite good.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair pay

Except for the fact that I'm not making $150-200K/year like a mainline pilot, my treatment at ASA has been quite good.

I, of course, will not ask your salary. But I heard that Comair captains with decent seniority make $75K - $90K+. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If true, that certainly ain't chicken feed.

 

[T-Gates]

I get paid in Chicken Feed.......

Or at least that is what it seems like.....

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Comair pay

...I heard that Comair captains with decent seniority make $75K - $90K+. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If true, that certainly ain't chicken feed.

The key phrase is "decent seniority." Being on a big airplane (CRJ-700) doesn't hurt, either. I've got to get a little more gray hair and add twenty seats before I reach that level.

I will tell you that ASA and Comair salaries are comparable.

 

[KATL8R26L]

well

Well. once again the the ugly PFT monster has raised it's head , only to stir up such a whrilwind of a debate.

So it's time to call it a night and go off to fantisy land where every thing is fine and dandy, let see to nights travel will be up north, some where out in the open, ridding hourses, down a trail near a creek, and what ever else the mind can think up while a sleep.


With reguards to PFT,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who in this state of ecomic mess has any extra money,,,,,,,,to mess around with???????

I learned a long time a go that the people are never happy no matter where they are, think of this , back when i sold office equipment the people on the inside of my old company were not happy, they wanted out , then the people at the competeor wanted in.

Go Figure,,,,,,,,,,, ie the grass may look green on the other side of the street"but you still have to mow it"

Fly safe,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, win the lotto see the world,,,,,,,,

 

[Wankel7]

I PFTed

I really did not see anybody that posted they paid for training. Either they do not exist or are afraid to post.

I am not afraid to post. I am happy with my decision.

I was a flight instructor for about one and a half years at a small university. I really enjoyed teaching but it was starting to wear on me. Not so much the flying and teaching just the environment.

When I found out about this company I was interested. I could look at my friends just turning wheels. I did not want to turn wheels at a place that had very little chance for building multi time. At that time I had 880/30.

So I said what the hell. The company looked safe and the training director has it together. I will be flying a large multi-engine turboprop. Sounds good to me. Considering I hardly ever got to, fly as a CFI I was happy at this chance. Honestly, I was tired of not flying. Yeah, as a CFI you get to log PIC time but your hands are in your lap 95% of the time. That is no fun. At least not for me. Do not get me wrong about the CFI job. I did learn A LOT from it. I learned more from my students than I did from my own instructors.

I did it. I paid for my training to work at this company. They call it pay for hire.

That was eight months ago. And I still would do it again. My thoughts on PFT are this. At least at this company if I do not perform and screw up I am out. Just like any place. If you say you are taking jobs from people that can't afford it I would disagree. Can't afford it? My company finances. Banks finance. If you want something bad enough....

Nobody has held my hand through this process. I fly and work hard to build my time here. I am getting amazing experience and flying to Mexico and Canada. We do on demand cargo charter and I have had to earn every single hour. I get to see the sunset and sunrise in the same duty day. Like I said if I do not cut it I am out.

And yes my flame suit is zipped to the tippy top

Wankel

 

[Timebuilder]

I hope you have to pay for all your jobs. Every one of them.

Keep on doing it. No problem.

While you pay to fly, pilots will be working.

You will not be one of them, since you are not an employee, you are a customer, and they are selling you a seat.

That makes you a passenger in my book.

 

[bobbysamd]

You P-F-Td

I did it. I paid for my training to work at this company. They call it pay for hire.

That was eight months ago. And I still would do it again. My thoughts on PFT are this. At least at this company if I do not perform and screw up I am out. Just like any place. If you say you are taking jobs from people that can't afford it I would disagree. Can't afford it? My company finances. Banks finance. If you want something bad enough....

Buy you a diamond ring, my friend, if it makes you feel all right,
I'll give you all I got to give if it makes you feel all right,
I don't care too much for money,
for money can't buy me love.

--Beatles, circa 1965

. . . . but it can buy you a pilot job.

You did what you felt you had to do. As you sow, so shall you reap. Best wishes, Captain Faust.

 

[Wankel7]

At the time that is what I felt I had to do. You are correct.

In all honesty I had no idea that sediments about PFT exsisted in this manner. I wonder if I had known about this board before my choice would it have changed my course.

I will never ever want to pay for training again. Once is more than enough for me.

Man, if you consider me a paying passenger than I have never had to work so hard as a passenger.

One of the reasons I went with this company is because it is a good job. I am being paid fairly well for my ability. During training they provided housing. We were also paid a per diem while in training.

Just out curiostiy. How do you people that are against PFT feel about a website that has a big banner ad for buy your type rating here? You did look at the top of every page? The forum we use might partly exist because of people that pay.

I wasn't saying what they call it (Pay for hire) to give it a rosey name to avoid what it really is. That is just what they call it.

I can understand your point of views on being against it. However, this is what I did. If this place is around in the years to come I will keep you updated if care.

Wankel

 

[T-Gates]

For the love of GOD let this thread die.....

 

[Timebuilder]

How do you people that are against PFT feel about a website that has a big banner ad for buy your type rating here? You did look at the top of every page? The forum we use might partly exist because of people that pay.

That banner ad is for a type rating.

A type rating is good anywhere; it is not a specific payment made to an employer in order to qualify you for employment.

In the case of Southwest, which is no doubt why that banner is there, they want you to have the type as a filtering process to find the applicants that really want to work there. After hiring, you must go through employer-specific training, which is at THEIR expense.

So, to address your remark, getting a type is not PFT.

 

[Wankel7]

Well, I have yet to read all of the threads yet. However, I am going to read all of them to learn more about my choices and try to formulate my complete thoughts on it.

Two guys in my class had 300 and 350 hours TT. I really wish they could become flight instructors first. It is the best thing you can do for experience. But that won't happen with everybody.

When I first started flying for this company I did not have a clue what was going on. Not that the training was poor. On demand was a bit different than what I was used to. I picked it up quick and I am learning so much out on the line.

Well then. Thanks for not flaming me. However, I have a feeling if I got in before the thread broke 50 posts I would have been well done.

Wankel

 

[1.3XVso]

I'm PROUD TO BE PFT !!!!!!!!!!!! woooooooooohooooooooooooo NO CFI FOR ME hahahhah. Ok OK I'm being a bit sarchastic i'm sorry guys... Just one thing though.. I would like to thank all the CFI that helped me get my ratings thanks =D.. Dam its also pathetic that I have'nt posted a thread for about 3 month or so maybe a bit more but dam its ALWAYS THE SAME MORONS. SAFE FLYING.

 

[s3jetman]

Take this into consideration

John
Year 2006- Starts flying
2007- Has private inst. commercial
2008- Has CFI, CFII, MEI
2008 to 2011- 3 years of instruction and 1,500 hrs with 200 Multi
2011 Gets hierd by airline X with a seniority number of 251

Bob
Year 2009-2010Starts flying does private, inst, multi-commecial and does GS program.
Year 2011 finishes program and gets hired by Airline X with a seniority number of 250

Year 2015 tragedy strikes and Airline X has to due cuts to 250 pilots.


Airline X does not ask how many hours you have done steep turns, stalls, touch-n-goes or what ever. John is gone and Bob is still flying.

Point is that no matter what you or anyone else thinks or believes is right or ethical, a pilots seniority number is the most valuable thing he/she has.

As far as doing it the way it has always been done, that is the biggest crock of Sh** i have heard. There are few things done in this world today, they way they were done years ago.

Conclusion
My seniority number will be higher than yours and that is all that matters

 

[1skydive]

Just to add another point of view here.... I haven't started training but I have been talking to and visiting different schools and this is what I have been told over and over.....

"Network, network, network. It's not what you know but who you know". Then they go on to tell you how a friend of theirs was trying to get into airlineX and they have loads of hours and experience and yet the airline hired someone else with only 300 hours because it was someone the chief pilot knew.

Now tell me how fair this is to the experienced pilot? This to me is far worse than PFT yet no-one complains about this unfairness like they do about PFT.

 

[350DRIVER]

"Network, network, network. It's not what you know but who you know". Then they go on to tell you how a friend of theirs was trying to get into airlineX and they have loads of hours and experience and yet the airline hired someone else with only 300 hours because it was someone the chief pilot knew.

Someone being hired at a regional with 300 hours due S O L E L Y to the fact that they knew the chief pilot really is somewhat a myth for the most part, son with all due respect you are out of the loop with reality. This certainly is not the norm and I think this is somewhat a dream that you may be having. There are only a few places out there that will even take 300 hour guys due to a bridge program that is set up. Most of the other regionals want 500/100 if you come through a program that they have an agreement with. Even if this does happen once in a blue moon atleast they are not $crewing themselves and their careers when it comes to interview time at a national or major. I for one would hate to have to justify to an interview board why I had to go out and "buy" my job for X amount of dollars. Try it though and some old salt who is sitting on the interview board who had to come up the ranks the hard way will eat you up and spit you out like a rag doll. Ask around if you know anyone who is flying the bigger iron. I know a DAL captain who made it a point to $crew with these guys when they came for there "big day". It is funny what people will do now to only regret it down the line at some point....

Now tell me how fair this is to the experienced pilot? This to me is far worse than PFT yet no-one complains about this unfairness like they do about PFT.

Someone once told me that life was not always fair.. AS previously stated, this very seldom will happen.. PFT is nothing more than "buying" your seat without earning it. Do it though so you can regret it down the line. Try the Colgan gig and your life will be absolute he!! once you hit the line. Try the Gulfstream gig and the same will apply when you hit Pinnacle.

not very smart-


3 5 0

 

[1skydive]

son with all due respect you are out of the loop with reality.

I can't agree more.... and as someone thinking about joining this industry I was totally shocked too, However, these are not my words. I have been told this story by at least two schools I visited very recently AND by a pilot I talked to after one of my flights. So, if it's not in touch with reality, why are they telling a prospective student stuff like this?

Maybe the 300 hour thing was a little low, but the story still holds truth about two pilots qualified for a job (one more than the other) and the lesser qualified pilot gets the job becasue of someone they knew.

My point was just to ask why people don't complain about this and compain so readily about PFT. As a wannabe, I'm just trying to understand the industry.

Just to let you know, I was not considering PFT. I agree with most on here that jobs should be earned by going through the ranks, not bought just because you have the cash, or given the job because you know the top guy at the company.

 

[350DRIVER]

I can't agree more.... and as someone thinking about joining this industry I was totally shocked too, However, these are not my words. I have been told this story by at least two schools I visited very recently AND by a pilot I talked to after one of my flights. So, if it's not in touch with reality, why are they telling a prospective student stuff like this?

1skydive,

It is much the same as buying a car, the less one woud tell the less likely a red flag would appear to a prospective "buyer" and in this case the student. It is really all about marketing and these places know how to do that better than most, take a look at the flashy and one sided ads in the more popular flying magazines. Why not promise someone the world? Most of these guys that get sucked into these types of programs are somewhat young, nieve, and out of touch with the industry as a whole so they are not going to have the concerns or questions that the more experienced guys would have. It is relatively easy to brainwash someone into doing this because at that level the student is usually "awed" by what he or she is seeing, hearing, etc, etc, . I can tell you though that this will come back to bite you in the future. It may be all fun and games dressing up like a pilot and playing around in a King Air 90 but when you finally get to the "select" few regionals that will accept you after completing the program then life is going to take a turn for the worse. Everyone person that I know who is at the regionals present day and days past have absolutely no respect for anyone who "bought" a job and they are not very friendly to these guys when they hit the line.

My point was just to ask why people don't complain about this and compain so readily about PFT. As a wannabe, I'm just trying to understand the industry.

Because who you "know" is not nearly on the same level as renting or buying a seat in a plane for X amount of hours. It is one thing to get the interview by someone walking your resume in but it is a completely different animal to solely get the interview based on the fact that you played pilot in a King Air or rented the seat of a 1900 out for 250 hours, big difference.


3 5 0

 

[TZRav8r]

Since the bulk of my flying career has been spent with the same small 135 outfit, I don’t really have the experience of being a union member or being cut off by a PFTer. However, what I can’t really grasp, after reading all these PFT-type threads, is why in the world is anyone would hold a grudge against individuals who PFT. I understand the thought process that would anger someone who has been cutoff on final or in the grocery store. I understand this analogy. Would I be mad? Yes! Would I hate that individual? No. The reason why is if the grocery store allows or in this case encourages line jumpers, I would have to say my hostilities would be directed towards the store. What I’m trying to say here is, that while you or I may not like the PFT programs they are accepted practices of the industry. After all, and I may being showing my lack of ‘flying the line’ experience here, but I would have to believe that if these companies who have PFT programs were not able to code share with a major, they would not exist. Am I wrong here? I am lead to the conclusion that if unions (the pilot collective) were truly interested in stopping PFT programs then they would have no problem, as collective, dissuading major airlines from coding sharing with PFT-types. After all, when we as consumers learn that our favorite celebrity endorsed clothing line is being produced in some third world, horrible sweat shop, we (at least I) don’t get enraged at all those sonofab!tchin, rat b@stard, workers for whoring themselves for a fraction of what an American might get paid. I tend to get more upset with those who produce the product and exploit others. It appears to me that Colgan, Gulfstream and others who engage in PFT programs are the bad ones. They are the ones exploiting those who have all the desire and none of the experience. Why is Colgan allowed to code share with Airways and Gulfstream with whomever, is it CAL? Why does ALPA not take an aggressive stance against PFT? Am I totally off base here? Wouldn't be a first!

 

[de727ups]

TZR8vator

Can't really disagree with that. ALPA is distracted by so many things that PFT means nothing to them. If you take your average ALPA line guy and ask them what PFT means...they won't have a clue. If you explain to them that PFT means pilots paying for a job and that the next thing you know, Delta will take 50K for any guy willing to pay it to sit in their seat...then your average line guy will have an opinon.

PFT sucks and to my dying breath I'll tell everyone I know to discriminate at the interview against those who chose this route. Be warned, if you choose the PFT route you may lose out in a future interview for what seems to you like no reason. However, the reason will be clear as daylight to the rest of us.....

 

[T-Gates]

Re: TZR8vator

PFT sucks and to my dying breath I'll tell everyone I know to discriminate at the interview against those who chose this route. Be warned, if you choose the PFT route you may lose out in a future interview for what seems to you like no reason. However, the reason will be clear as daylight to the rest of us.....

So you're saying you should discriminate against those who PFT'ed even if thier descision was based on mis-information? Unfortunatley not everyone reads Flightinfo, nor does everyone run into people so anti-PFT as you are so obviously are.

When Lorenzo went to recruit his scabs in the 1980's ALPA sent communications officers all over the country to dissuade people from becoming pawns in his game. When UAL had scabs ready pre-strike in 1985, ALPA went in and talked to the group teaching them all about what would be instore for them if they crossed the picket lines.

ALPA (nor any other union) has taken no such position on PFT.... Does that mean that it is right and everyone should do it? No! But until there is a hard and fast stance on it you will never end it. Flightinfo will never end it. Not even people who are denied jobs because of it will end PFT. Because how many interviewers will sit there and tell someone face-to-face that? Mabye some, but not many.

I know companies like Trans States have clauses in thier pilot contracts that state "The company will pay for all initial, recurrent, and upgrde training." I encourage all pilots to try and get this added. THAT will kill PFT, not denying people jobs to fufill a personal vendetta against those who didn't CFI for 2000 hours and fly single pilot freight in a 210.

Just venting, and my defensive stance is because at one point I did PFT. So I am looking at this from the "other side of the fence" as it were.

I know I am not going to change anyone's mind, but I had to give my .02 nonetheless....

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

However, what I can’t really grasp, after reading all these PFT-type threads, is why in the world is anyone would hold a grudge against individuals who PFT. I understand the thought process that would anger someone who has been cutoff on final or in the grocery store. I understand this analogy.

That is one issue. We live in a society that is based on rules and order. For the most part, our society works well because people follow the rules. People expect others to follow the rules. Those who do not follow the rules offend the rest of society.

In the case of P-F-T, jobs that ordinarily go to the best qualified in terms of experience go to the best qualified in terms of finances. Those individuals, by virtue of their finances, cut in front of others. I will not bring up ethics and pride.

f the grocery store allows or in this case encourages line jumpers, I would have to say my hostilities would be directed towards the store.

The P-F-T airline, or "store," deserves your hostility. The answer would be to boycott the "store," or P-F-T airline. But, just as people need to purchase food, certain pilots feel compelled to purchase their jobs. They want to shortcut the accepted rules, which are working one's way up the ranks. Or, no one else will "hire" them. In either case, it offends the majority, who abides by the rules.

One other point. Until I was involved in aviation, I never heard of any business where an employee has to pay for training as a condition of employment, which, of course, is paying for the job. That is insulting. Employers who see that employees want so badly to have the job will find other ways to take advantage of them. That is not the proper relationship to establish with an employer.