TankCommander
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PFT-Let it fly!
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Timebuilder
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If all this were true, then why do many of ACA's pilots have their CFI, but very few (if any) did PFT?
Furthermore, why doesn't FSI offer a program where any 500 TT pilot can shell out the necessary $ to buy 250 hours of SIC Turboprop time (or 'any 250 TT pilot', depending on how it's supposed to be read).
Actions speak louder than words. ACA and FSI, both class acts, are perfect examples of this.
An interesting article, though TC.
Furthermore, why doesn't FSI offer a program where any 500 TT pilot can shell out the necessary $ to buy 250 hours of SIC Turboprop time (or 'any 250 TT pilot', depending on how it's supposed to be read).
Actions speak louder than words. ACA and FSI, both class acts, are perfect examples of this.
An interesting article, though TC.
I think the disrespect towards PFTers goes beyond the idea of "cutting in line". At least for me it does.
The people I know who paid for temporary jobs to get turbine time did it because they couldn't get a real job cause they were suck-a$$ pilots.
I mean really bad pilots who couldn't even hold instructor jobs.
Nobody would pay them to do a job because they were worthless as pilots. Of course that doesn't mean they couldn't do SIC turboprop, because an SIC turboprop postion is just dead weight in the seat. No need for skills, just your check.
And they were still suck-a$$ pilots after their 200 hrs or whatever of turbine time.
Let me ask you this: What skills does a turboprop SIC develope in a PFT environment? Answer: Most likely very little as the captains in those operations know that they are basically operating single pilot and have the added duty of baby sitting and watching the guy in the right seat like a hawk to make sure they don't do anything stupid.
Mind you this was during good economic times. Its a bit harder to condem folks when PFT positions are the only ones available.
The people I know who paid for temporary jobs to get turbine time did it because they couldn't get a real job cause they were suck-a$$ pilots.
I mean really bad pilots who couldn't even hold instructor jobs.
Nobody would pay them to do a job because they were worthless as pilots. Of course that doesn't mean they couldn't do SIC turboprop, because an SIC turboprop postion is just dead weight in the seat. No need for skills, just your check.
And they were still suck-a$$ pilots after their 200 hrs or whatever of turbine time.
Let me ask you this: What skills does a turboprop SIC develope in a PFT environment? Answer: Most likely very little as the captains in those operations know that they are basically operating single pilot and have the added duty of baby sitting and watching the guy in the right seat like a hawk to make sure they don't do anything stupid.
Mind you this was during good economic times. Its a bit harder to condem folks when PFT positions are the only ones available.
TankCommander
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"Suck as Pilots" Get a clue numb nuts!
You Talk a lot of big stuff for a little man.......
People like you really pi$$ me off!
If you would like to send me a p/m we could meet.
in fact I WOULD BE WILLING TO MEET YOU!
WHEN YOU MAKE INSULTING COMMENTS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE PFT'ed Thats a large number of people, from alot of different walks of life.
To bad you were never in the military, I could have made you alot more respectfull of other people.
You Talk a lot of big stuff for a little man.......
People like you really pi$$ me off!
If you would like to send me a p/m we could meet.
in fact I WOULD BE WILLING TO MEET YOU!
WHEN YOU MAKE INSULTING COMMENTS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE PFT'ed Thats a large number of people, from alot of different walks of life.
To bad you were never in the military, I could have made you alot more respectfull of other people.
Thats funny. I was in the Army for 6 years.
And you might notice I said "The people I know who..."
I certainly didn't say all.
Let me be clear. I am not talking about paying for ratings. I am not talking about buying a 737 type to apply for SouthWest. And I am not even talking about my fellow NJA people who payed 10,000 dollars for training way back in the mid 90s.
I am talking about 2 people that I know who bought temporary seats at a commercial turboprob operator.
And those guys were suck-a$$ pilots-- I stand by that.
Would you like to meet for coffee or beer? Or did you have something else in mind?
And you might notice I said "The people I know who..."
I certainly didn't say all.
Let me be clear. I am not talking about paying for ratings. I am not talking about buying a 737 type to apply for SouthWest. And I am not even talking about my fellow NJA people who payed 10,000 dollars for training way back in the mid 90s.
I am talking about 2 people that I know who bought temporary seats at a commercial turboprob operator.
And those guys were suck-a$$ pilots-- I stand by that.
Would you like to meet for coffee or beer? Or did you have something else in mind?
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TankCommander
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Timebuilder
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My miltary experience included a period of four years in the late 60's.
Of the dozens of decorated officers and NCO's I knew, not a one was the kind of soldier who would EVER consider paying for a job. It would be considered dishonorable.
It would be THEY who would be insulted that these means were somehow justified by the ends.
It used to be that people knew the meaning of shame, and if they had done something to sully their reputation, they would be sickened by it, and hide it from others.
In today's environment, shame and stigma have evaporated. Now, you are not "knocked up", you're a "single mom", and you have daycare available at your junior high school.
The truth is that among those who still have a sense of values, wrong is still wrong, notwithstanding the great numbers of those who participate in the wrong thing.
PFT is still wrong, and if I had participated in it, I would be insulted at myself.
Of the dozens of decorated officers and NCO's I knew, not a one was the kind of soldier who would EVER consider paying for a job. It would be considered dishonorable.
It would be THEY who would be insulted that these means were somehow justified by the ends.
It used to be that people knew the meaning of shame, and if they had done something to sully their reputation, they would be sickened by it, and hide it from others.
In today's environment, shame and stigma have evaporated. Now, you are not "knocked up", you're a "single mom", and you have daycare available at your junior high school.
The truth is that among those who still have a sense of values, wrong is still wrong, notwithstanding the great numbers of those who participate in the wrong thing.
PFT is still wrong, and if I had participated in it, I would be insulted at myself.
You know, TankCommander, I didn't look at your profile before. Usually I prefer to read a post and judge it on its merits and not the qualifications of the poster.
But now I am wondering... You have 470 hours and are FO on a 1900? If you had your company training paid for and are getting paid, thats great.
If you had to pay for company training but they will pay it back if you stay (like the old nja agreement) - well thats pretty good too.
If you paid for training but are getting paid a wage- thats pretty sleazy but not the worst possible, which is:
If you are paying for that seat by the hour- thats the worst.
But now I am wondering... You have 470 hours and are FO on a 1900? If you had your company training paid for and are getting paid, thats great.
If you had to pay for company training but they will pay it back if you stay (like the old nja agreement) - well thats pretty good too.
If you paid for training but are getting paid a wage- thats pretty sleazy but not the worst possible, which is:
If you are paying for that seat by the hour- thats the worst.
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TankCommander
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If one man were at a point in his career 1500hrs and wanted make a step-up. So he opped to pay for his Type on the 737 to interview with SW.
Another with 250hrs but with the same goals, and decided to pay for 2weeks systems, 2weeks OM, 2weeks CPT, 121 signoffs, and get 250hrs of turbine time. Thats all no more no less.
If your thought process is consitent then both are scumbags and should be ashamed.
Another with 250hrs but with the same goals, and decided to pay for 2weeks systems, 2weeks OM, 2weeks CPT, 121 signoffs, and get 250hrs of turbine time. Thats all no more no less.
If your thought process is consitent then both are scumbags and should be ashamed.
Not at all. SW doesn't take your money in exchange for flight hours.
SW doesn't care where or when you got your type or who paid for it.
Your company doesn't want you or your skills/judgement, they just want your money.
You are being taken advantage of by one of the bottom-feeders of aviation.
Edit: I have changed this post and my last 2 posts to remove all "whore" references. I promise to be a mature poster from now on!
SW doesn't care where or when you got your type or who paid for it.
Your company doesn't want you or your skills/judgement, they just want your money.
You are being taken advantage of by one of the bottom-feeders of aviation.
Edit: I have changed this post and my last 2 posts to remove all "whore" references. I promise to be a mature poster from now on!
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SierraPilot
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no offense Sctt@NJA but what the hell do you care?? you probably never had any intention of flying for Gulfstream or Tab Express and never would so who cares who flys for those 2 airlines anyways after all they are scum right?? [/sarcasim off]
Seriously though do you really think out of the total number of regional airlines, major airlines, international airlines, that 2.. I repeat 2 airlines can bring down a entire industry??.. I would have to say that is just wishful thinking on your part and your own justifacation to talk trash about people who are looking for a way to be competive in todays aviation market by paying for some turbine time.
I dont totally discount PFT as I think it depends on the justifaction for doing it. I can see how someone would interpet this as cutting in line for someone who has a reasonal expectation of wanting a job at one of those 2 airlines but are competing with people who is paying for a right seat.
Personally Sctt@NJA, I dont think these two airlines hurts the industry as much as you or anyone claims or anymore then letting a intern fill a slot that would of been filled by a paid employee. Its all about perspective..
I'd like to see some numbers on how much people where actually displaced by these 2 airlines allowing PFT.. I'd be willing to bet the number would be low.
Ryan
Seriously though do you really think out of the total number of regional airlines, major airlines, international airlines, that 2.. I repeat 2 airlines can bring down a entire industry??.. I would have to say that is just wishful thinking on your part and your own justifacation to talk trash about people who are looking for a way to be competive in todays aviation market by paying for some turbine time.
I dont totally discount PFT as I think it depends on the justifaction for doing it. I can see how someone would interpet this as cutting in line for someone who has a reasonal expectation of wanting a job at one of those 2 airlines but are competing with people who is paying for a right seat.
Personally Sctt@NJA, I dont think these two airlines hurts the industry as much as you or anyone claims or anymore then letting a intern fill a slot that would of been filled by a paid employee. Its all about perspective..
I'd like to see some numbers on how much people where actually displaced by these 2 airlines allowing PFT.. I'd be willing to bet the number would be low.
Ryan
SierraPilot said:
Well, you are on a board where a bunch of guys just got done blaming 1 airline (Mesa) for ruining the world b/c they didn't get a big enough raise, so, you have to keep perspective.
We all know interns don't do anything. They aren't taking away a job from someone b/c there's no job there in the first place.
[/QUOTE] I'd like to see some numbers on how much people where actually displaced by these 2 airlines allowing PFT.. I'd be willing to bet the number would be low.[/QUOTE]
Take the # of FO's positions filled by a PFT'er. Assume each FO would be in the seat maybe 2.5 years, so divide the years that the company has utilized PFT'rs by 2.5, and multiply it by the # of seats filled by the PFT'rs, and you'll have 'the number'. That's the #, which is probably around 100 or so (I have no clue, anyone want to comment?). The # isn't the issue, it's the precendent that pilots will pay the company to train them for a job that is temporary. What's a line at Gulfstream, 80 hrs. a month? That's about a 3 month contract. It's just bad precedent to establish, like a concessionary contract. By itself, it's nothing for 1 guy to do it. But all the little nothings add up eventually.
Hey, does anyone know if Gulfstream guys get jumpseat privledges?
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