PFT-Let it fly!

[B190Captain]

Sure they do. Look at the companies they contract to do their feeder work. They are making sure that pilot wages are kept low. The unions of the parent companies are not only allowing it, they are counting on it.

The human parents that you mention, few that they are, are helping to keep wages low, too, in the hopes that their child will be able to hold a line in the shrinking world of the "major" airline, where a contract will hopefully keep them in that upper five percent of pilots. By using PFT, they are guaranteeing that other pilots who are competing with their sons and daughters will have fewer paying jobs available because the shady operators see that these pilots and their parents are willing to sacrifice the viability of the profession by paying for a job.

Maybe that will change!!

Federal Court OK's Lawsuit Against Pilots' Union,
Thwarts Union Effort to Preserve Separate Levels of Representation;
Recommends Pilots Seek Class-Action Status

June 25, Cincinnati-- Thwarting plans of the Air Line Pilots Association [ALPA] to continue using "scope" clauses of collective bargaining agreements to create a lower caste of ALPA member, a federal court permitted claims alleging that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation ["DFR"] to go forward. The decision will allow pilots at Comair, Inc., a Delta subsidiary, to make their case that ALPA maintains two levels of representation-- one for the higher-paid "mainline" pilots at such carriers as Delta, and a lower level of representation for pilots at "regional" airlines.

In a lengthy decision in Ford v. Air Line Pilots Association, International, Judge I. Leo Glasser of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York upheld the right of hundreds of Comair pilots to sue their union for working against their interests.

Although Judge Glasser dismissed a range of side claims, the main thrust of the lawsuit, dealing with the duty of fair representation, was allowed to go forward. Specifically, the claim that prevailed against ALPA's motion to dismiss was the one in which plaintiffs sought a myriad of injunctive relief to prevent ALPA from negotiating Delta collective bargaining agreements that wield economic harm upon ALPA's Comair constituency. The claim that was upheld alleges that ALPA uses the scope clause of the Delta collective bargaining agreement as a remote control device to limit flying at Comair, thus limiting the career growth and earning potential of Comair pilots. Judge Glasser's decision is believed to be the first time that a federal court has recognized that ALPA has a potential conflict of interest in representing both "mainline" and "regional" pilots.


A similar lawsuit was filed against ALPA last month by pilots at Atlantic Southeast Airlines, Inc. [ASA]. It is as yet unclear how the court's ruling will impact current bargaining between Delta and its pilots, but Captain Daniel Ford, President of the umbrella organization that is coordinating the Comair and ASA lawsuits, said the decision "ushers in a new era in union representation of pilots at so-called "regional" carriers. Ford, who heads the Regional Jet Defense Coalition, said, "ALPA is going to have to sit up and take notice that it is accountable to all its members and can no longer sacrifice its constituents at smaller carriers to appease its large carrier membership."

Judge Glasser, in a 39-page decision, wrote, "Plaintiffs have sufficiently stated a claim that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation by allegedly negotiating contracts that arbitrarily favor the Delta pilots over the Comair pilots." The Court specifically found invalid ALPA's insistence that the dispute between it and its Comair members should be relegated to the National Mediation Board, which has little if any power to address the dispute.

The Judge also permitted more than 300 additional Comair pilots to join the lawsuit, but strongly suggested that the case be converted into a class action on behalf of all Comair pilots. The Court directed the parties to address that issue within 30 days.

 

[Timebuilder]

Now that's interesting.

I recall reading on this board how the suit would never go forward, would be thrown out, etc, etc, and the regional pilots would be sorry they had brought this action.

I don't think so.

The duty of fair representation idea was established long before we had any jets at all, large or small.

 

[superrav]

I'm a CFI and teaching has definitely made me a better pilot. But if i had the chance to PFT...I'd do it in a heart beat...If you have the money than why not just do it...whats the problem...is there a law against it?? or maybe i dont know about it..I think you have to do what you have to do to get there..minus breaking any rules of course..so good luck!!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

I'm a CFI and teaching has definitely made me a better pilot. But if i had the chance to PFT...I'd do it in a heart beat...If you have the money than why not just do it...whats the problem...is there a law against it?? or maybe i dont know about it..I think you have to do what you have to do to get there..minus breaking any rules of course..so good luck!!

So, you like people who butt in ahead of you in line? How did you like it the last time someone cut in ahead of you on final?

Just a little food for thought. Define rule-breaking. P-F-T may not be illegal per se, but, as they say, it's a dog-eat-dog world out there.

 

[Dean]

Well, let me say, I do appreciate the points of view expressed here. And im very glad to here from people that look at PFT in a different light,
But...

So, you like people who butt in ahead of you in line? How did you like it the last time someone cut in ahead of you on final?

Status in life and how one achieved this point seems to be a real concern for the ANTI-PFT crowd, but I find it ironic that "most" of these people are PRO-UNION, and which is usually represented by the Left side of the politcal fence. The same side of the fence that supports Affirmative action. Which all leads down to the ultimate cutting in line issue. Is it fair and honorable to get somewhere just because of racial preferences, And Im not sure about the reply about the lawsuit against the union, I dont know much about other than what i just read. But it sounded like this beloved union that you hold so dear, screwed the little man. The one thing I have learned in life is dont put much stock in anyone except myself. I like to believe I control my Destiny.

It was good to here from someone who had the first hand account of the finished product between CFI and PFT. it seems as if we are very close in our ability to be a good pilot. there is good and bad in every bunch.

Although I have got a least 2yrs of school left, It leaves me lots to think about,

Thank you for adding to this discussion.
Dean

 

[bobbysamd]

Non sequitors

Status in life and how one achieved this point seems to be a real concern for the ANTI-PFT crowd, but I find it ironic that "most" of these people are PRO-UNION, and which is usually represented by the Left side of the politcal fence. The same side of the fence that supports Affirmative action. Which all leads down to the ultimate cutting in line issue.

You have strung together several non sequitors, not to mention absolutes.

I am sure that if you would review more posts on the board that you would find a great deal of opposition to how affirmative action operates in aviation. Read up on the dislike so many people have for the 300-hour hires at United Airlines. Most of these folks are affirmative action hires. Those who oppose that form of affirmative action tend to oppose P-F-T.

These same people are generally staunch unionists. And, they are not bleeding-heart left-wingers, as you portray. Pilot unions exist because aviation management historically has been at loggerheads with pilots. Management and pilots have historically been at odds about safety issues, rules, and pay, or lack thereof. Pilot unions at least attempt to make management play fair. I don't claim to understand the RJDC controversy, but I would happily bet a dollar to your dime that management is chortling over the divide among pilots on this issue.

Suggested reading would be both volumes of Flying the Line by George Hopkins. In particular, read in Volume I about E.L. Cord and his dealings with pilots, putting yourself in the pilots' perspective. After all, you're considering the career, aren't you?

Finally, read this thread from last year for a good discussion about pilot unions pro and con.

PS-You're still in college. May I suggest you take as an elective(s) a course in something like American Labor Movement or Trade Unionism? If you can put your anti-union prejudice aside, the knowlege gained may very well be valuable to you as a professional pilot.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: P-F-T

So, you like people who butt in ahead of you in line? How did you like it the last time someone cut in ahead of you on final?

Probably the one cutting in front of me on final is the CFI with his student.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Sure,

Not to knock low time pilots, because we were all there once. But, the original post by a 40 hour private pilot kind of speaks for itself.

Kind of like when I have 30 hour pilot argue with me on how to use a VOR.

They'll learn. The statment that "how many times do you have to teach someone how to recover from a stall" I know is making every CFI smile a little.

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm reminded of the time I had a student approach me to go up and help him prepare for his checkride. He hadn't flown in a couple of months, and his friend, a fellow MD, had recommended me.

This doc's problem was steep turns.

It took two hours, but he finally had the old light bulb go on about the need to use back pressure and trim to make the maneuver a turn, and not a steep spiral!!!

I almost got dizzy myself. I can't imagine what it looked like on the approach radar: "Hey, Bob, is 38E a helo?"

"naw, just another steep turns student."

Working as a CFI can also tax your creative abilities, but that's for another thread.

I learned a lot as an instructor, that's for sure!

 

[skymonkey007]

All I know is that I paid alot of hard earned money and hours of studying to get me a commercial license so I could get PAID to fly planes, not PAY to fly. Im new to the PFT discussion, I only have limited knowlege of the subject. But from what Ive heard, it does seem like they are trying to bypass the system here. I do agree though, when it comes to when im a passenger on a flight, I dont care how they got there, just as long as they know what theyre doing. So go ahead and do what you gotta do, but I know im staying away from the any PFT, Ill CFI.



P.S. Doesnt anyone love flying aside from money? Sure you gotta support a family, but I got into this as a profession because I get a natural High when im in a plane, and alot of you seem like its the cause of all your nightmares!

 

[Timebuilder]

I do agree though, when it comes to when im a passenger on a flight, I dont care how they got there, just as long as they know what theyre doing.

What's the likelihood that they are the best qualified pilot for you and you family's safety if they are PAYING for the privilege instead of competing for it based on experience?

 

[skymonkey007]

Very true, very true..... Didnt quite think of that one. Good point Timebuilder

 

[stlpilot]

Lots of good points here made and I only read the first page so my apologies if I’m repeating others.

Well I’m not all that familiar with PFT although the only two guys I know that did it were blundering idiots. Of course that was genetics mostly at fault. Don’t get me started. One of them was a CFI at the flight school I worked at and before I made Assistant Chief I knew he was trouble from the beginning. He went to one of those one week CFI courses, so in other words he knew very little and wasted his students money to gain experience, which was also a joke. But again this may not apply to your situation I’m just giving you my background experience. I think Dean you miss a few points you may never understand b/c you have not had the experience of being a CFI. No matter how smart you are, or how much someone tries to tell you their own CFI experience, you can never understand how much you learn as a CFI. And I’m not talking about how you LEARN to land a 152 a 1000 times and can do it perfect, I’m talking about how a CFI learns from students mistakes and their triumphs. This learning comes in so many fashions that I can't even begin to explain them all, and someone in your position cant fully understand. Other CFI’s know what I mean. By observing students for hours and hours you recognize good and bad habits on both a mental and physical level, you then incorporate this into your own flying which make you a better pilot, therefore better instructor, then the cycle repeats itself. Even beyond this you MATURE or at least most do, it gives you character and dignity which go miles into your professional image. You can’t teach judgment, but you can learn it especially from being a CFI. Everything you learn in your ratings is limited but when you have to teach it you REALLY learn what you did not know, which is a TON. I think being a CFI made me so much more secure in what I wanted to do with flying and that was go the military route, but I would have never been absolutely sure unless I had that experience.

Where did this experience helped me? When I did move on to bigger and better things I was able to succeed because I learned as a CFI that I AM ALWAYS A STUDENT. Whether or not I have 10,000 hours in an F-16 or 1 hour in a 152, they can both kill me. One is just a little more of an honorable death! (my .02 cents) he he

I would avoid comparing this profession to others, that’s why so many doctors who have pilots licenses are dead. Iv seen their type a hundred times when they came into the flight school, to see that look of dread on some of their faces, I mean having to take lessons or recurrent training from us mere peasants. Peeyew. Just for the record I don’t think they are all bad! Flying is Flying and not nursing, being a salesman, or digging a ditch. Do I despise your route? No not yet. Only that you repeatedly say things like “ how can you landing a 152 a thousand times help you be a better pilot?” Well it does when you’re an instructor. So at this point the only thing we can probably do is agree to disagree. Now I’m not trying to compare “stick” skills or aviation knowledge but if you can hold your own then so be it, go fourth and fly. But when it comes to the separate issue of "acceptance" among your peers then your gonna be looked upon as an outcast by some.

I like to think of this “acceptance” part of it like trying to get membership at the snooty golf club, where you must have old money and high stature to get in. If your one of these people who just won the lottery and have tons of cash guess what? your still not gonna get in or be accepted by its members, but remember you still have the money…

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

But from what Ive heard, it does seem like they are trying to bypass the system here.

That is EXACTLY what is happening. That is EXACTLY what a couple of us mean that P-F-T'ers cut in line in front of others. That's why I always compare it to people who cut you off in traffic, or in the line at the bank, or at the grocery store. I would swear on my certificates that if someone did any of the above to a P-F-T'er that he/she would scream bloody murder. Most people would. It's human nature. On the other hand, it would be the pot calling the kettle black.

I do appreciate the safety concerns. I would hope that the P-F-T airlines in question ensure that their pilot-customers receive the same training as their more experienced hirees and that that pass the same checkride. I am given to believe this.

P.S. Doesnt anyone love flying aside from money?

That's why I decided even as a child that one day I would learn how to fly. I finally did - strictly for fun. Later, when I learned that even I could have an aviation career, that was the icing on the cake - although both icing and cake became stale over time.

Good luck with your plans. I appeciate stlpilot's points, above, especially those regarding "outcast" and "acceptance."

 

[SierraPilot]

I can understand the argument against PFT, and while I can see how it could be considered cutting in line when done for the sole purpose of bypassing the normally accepted routes.. I personally am working on my commercial and have ever intention of working for my CFI, CFII, and MEI and working as a instructor.. however to be more COMPETITIVE, I am interested in getting some Turbine time in my logbook, while in the end I may have 1500+TT and 200+ MEL time instructing and another 250+ Turbine I can only see this as being valuable and while you might disagree that PFT is wrong, there are not many places you can get TURBINE time without PFT or getting hired by some company to work you way up into one.

If you know of any place to get 250+ of Turbine time, that isnt a PFT for timebuilding, let me know..

Ryan