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PFT-Let it fly!

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I see PFT like this... here are my analogies, none of them perfectly accurate, but close enough.


You have a heart condition that requires surgery. The hospital you are in needs a new heart surgeon (the old one moved on to brains). They have two applicants. Both surgeons have full medical degrees that legally allow them to do the surgery, for which both doctors paid for themselves by going to college. One of whom has performed 50 surgerys over the past 5 years. The other is a brand new graduate who offers to pay the hospital $20K to get the job. Which doctor do you want operating on you?

I am a real estate developer who needs a new skyscaper built. My company policy is that the architecht has to have built at least one 500' tall building on their resume to be considered. Two applicants submit their work history. One of them, who paid for his degree, has been designing buildings for 3 years, working his way up to larger jobs, has done 25 designs, and recently completed one over 500' tall. The other also paid for his BS in architecture, but used his trust fund to design his first and only building that was 500' tall. Which one would you prefer do your design?

While it's certainly possible for the person who paid his way to the qualifications (above and beyond the minimum degree required to even be licensed, which ALL applicants do as a minimum) to be truly the better candidate for the task at hand, the applicant who has garnered much more real life experience, who has earned the experience by being the best person for the jobs he got and not simply by meeting the financial status, is most likely the one who is better qualified.


All civilian pilots pay for their first 250 some hours of training. not all those first 250 hours are equal though. Some are done in perfect weather, at a tiny airstrip with no other traffic, in a very reliable airplane. Some others are mostly IFR or MVFR, in crowded airspace, over mountains, in ice, using crummy old planes that have broken down several times. I simply don't believe that the pilot 500 hour who buys 250 hours in a BE1900 can consistently claim to have better experience than the CFI who has 1200 hours in a 172 and 100 in a Dutchess, when that CFI has seen every possible weather condition, flown in ice, over mountains, had electrical failures, engine failures, Vaccum failures in IMC, and whatever else you can dream up. It's possible for one 500 hour PFT'r to be widely experienced and a real good pilot. It's possibly that a 1500 hour CFI has done little else but touch and goes at Podunk. But based on what I've learned so far, the CFI who has put his neck on the line training new pilots for 3 years, is the one I'd go with over the guy who paid to tag along in a Turbo Prop while someone else did all the work.

It's possible for a real good experienced pilot to PFT. But I can't see a 500 hour pilot who PFTs being worthy of any job like that, other than towing banners. Certainly nothing with passengers involved.
 
UMich affirmative action

Timebuilder said:
I found it interesting that the court found that among equally qualifed law school applicants, race could be considered as a factor, but the point system used by the undergraduate program was struck down.

What will the replacement undergrad system be?
Dunno. Haven't heard.
 
All civilian pilots pay for their first 250 some hours of training. not all those first 250 hours are equal though. Some are done in perfect weather, at a tiny airstrip with no other traffic, in a very reliable airplane. Some others are mostly IFR or MVFR, in crowded airspace, over mountains, in ice, using crummy old planes that have broken down several times. I simply don't believe that the pilot 500 hour who buys 250 hours in a BE1900 can consistently claim to have better experience than the CFI who has 1200 hours in a 172 and 100 in a Dutchess, when that CFI has seen every possible weather condition, flown in ice, over mountains, had electrical failures, engine failures, Vaccum failures in IMC, and whatever else you can dream up. It's possible for one 500 hour PFT'r to be widely experienced and a real good pilot. It's possibly that a 1500 hour CFI has done little else but touch and goes at Podunk. But based on what I've learned so far, the CFI who has put his neck on the line training new pilots for 3 years, is the one I'd go with over the guy who paid to tag along in a Turbo Prop while someone else did all the work.

If a CFI had all the experience you just mentioned, I'd say he or she is a risk taker and would not fly with that person.

I have flown with CFI's and 250hr pilots that adapt quickly and I am actually impressed on how fast they become a functional crewmember in a regional airline. Unfortunately they are rare.

More than half of the FO's that I have flown with CFI experience have to be coached on how to communicate with ATC, read weather data and even navigate. So I still do all the work day or night rain or shine.

So just because a CFI sticks his neck out flying in your aforementioned conditions does not make him any better than the 250hr newbie that did not go through the CFI route.

IMHO

Fly Safe!:D
 
B190Captain said:
If a CFI had all the experience you just mentioned, I'd say he or she is a risk taker and would not fly with that person.

I have flown with CFI's and 250hr pilots that adapt quickly and I am actually impressed on how fast they become a functional crewmember in a regional airline. Unfortunately they are rare.

More than half of the FO's that I have flown with CFI experience have to be coached on how to communicate with ATC, read weather data and even navigate. So I still do all the work day or night rain or shine.

So just because a CFI sticks his neck out flying in your aforementioned conditions does not make him any better than the 250hr newbie that did not go through the CFI route.

IMHO

Fly Safe!:D

Isn't that essentially what I just said? That some CFI's can be short on real life experience and some 250 hr PFT'rs can actually be good pilots. But the reality is that the opposite is usually true for both cases. (Usually, not always)

So an experienced CFI is a Risk taker? Oh please! Yeah, I suppose if they experienced all those things in one flight, I'd say they were doing something wrong, of course. But all the mechanical problems aren't the result of being a risk taker, it's the nature of flying small training aircraft a lot. Flying over mountains doesn't automatically make a CFI a risk taker, or anyone else, if it's done properly. My private CFI got caught in ice once on a return from an IFR long cross country. That also doesn't make him a risk taker, ATC just wanted him to go a lot higher than his MEA and than he had filed or expected. He handled the situation properly, got out of the icing conditions, and returned safely.

I myself have about 275 hours total, but I have had a single engine failure on takoff at 50' AGL and I'm here to tell about it, and it didn' happen because I took risks. I can communicate well in any ATC environment, I'm comortable in busy Bravo airspace, I can read all the weather charts, whatever you need. Sure, I lack experience in other things, but I have no intention of getting myself involved in situations that are beyond my skill level, at this point. But it sounds to me like the problems you've experienced with these amateur FO's is more your company's method of interviewing and screening, rather than the overall proficiency of the CFI in general. How do these pilots get hired by your company in the first place? And which airline is it, so I can apply there myself :D You won't have to coach me on reading a Constant Pressure Analysis Chart or a High Level Sig WX prog chart either LOL
 
So just because a CFI sticks his neck out flying in your aforementioned conditions does not make him any better than the 250hr newbie that did not go through the CFI route.

I disagree. I learned so much more about flying when I was responsible for teaching that knowlege to someone else.


If the FO's at your regional are a constant thorn in your side, then I can see why you have such a low opinon of CFI's. I would, too.

A good point was raised , you know. This sounds like your company is having a problem recruiting (and training?) a good quality applicant. Since I couldn't even speculate as to who I think this might be, I'd sugggest that you do whatever you can to change this. There are many qualified and experienced pilots out there in need of a job. Not me: as soon as I am typed and have a fresh 8410 I should be working again. :) I mean the many thousands of other pilots who need a break right now.


Maybe the issue is pay, and your management doesn't want to raise wages in order to attract a better applicant. Maybe it's something else. I can only make the observation that I was comfortable in class B when I was a new commercial pilot, and as a CFI I was teaching a college credit course that included weather charts and navigation. Every pilot has different skills.

Overall, I'd still place my safety in the hands of an experienced CFI over someone who purchased a job for a couple of hundred hours.
 
Timebuilder said:
I disagree. I learned so much more about flying when I was responsible for teaching that knowlege to someone else.


If the FO's at your regional are a constant thorn in your side, then I can see why you have such a low opinon of CFI's. I would, too.

A good point was raised , you know. This sounds like your company is having a problem recruiting (and training?) a good quality applicant. Since I couldn't even speculate as to who I think this might be, I'd sugggest that you do whatever you can to change this. There are many qualified and experienced pilots out there in need of a job. Not me: as soon as I am typed and have a fresh 8410 I should be working again. :) I mean the many thousands of other pilots who need a break right now.


Maybe the issue is pay, and your management doesn't want to raise wages in order to attract a better applicant. Maybe it's something else. I can only make the observation that I was comfortable in class B when I was a new commercial pilot, and as a CFI I was teaching a college credit course that included weather charts and navigation. Every pilot has different skills.

Overall, I'd still place my safety in the hands of an experienced CFI over someone who purchased a job for a couple of hundred hours.


I did not say all of the FO's I fly with are like the way I described.
I have flown with FO's that have shown true professionalism and judgement and deserve to sit in that seat. We hire FO's that have truly demonstrated their abilities and are not thorns.

I am just pointing out that all CFI's are not what people on this board build them up to be. They maybe great instructors at their local FBO but in a regional 121 environment they are no different than a 250/hr Commercial Pilot for the most part.

IMHO.:D
 
If the crux of this has become a question of ALL CFI's being the cream of the crop for an FO position, then no, that isn't the case.

What I am saying is that the VAST MAJORITY of CFI's are more qualified than a 250 hour PFT pilot who buys some time to work the radio and gear handle in a 1900. Seriously, people, we're are talking about what, three months of 121 flying?
 
Timebuilder said:
If the crux of this has become a question of ALL CFI's being the cream of the crop for an FO position, then no, that isn't the case.

What I am saying is that the VAST MAJORITY of CFI's are more qualified than a 250 hour PFT pilot who buys some time to work the radio and gear handle in a 1900. Seriously, people, we're are talking about what, three months of 121 flying?

Like I said, based on my experience with both CFI's and non-CFI's, I disagree.


Fly Safe:D
 
B190, do you work for GS? A simple yes, no, or NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS would work fine for me.

I ask b/c most guys don't have experience flying with 250 hr FO's, other than at a couple companies. If you do work GS and want to elaborate, I'd love to know how many of the PFT'r guys end up getting hired at GS as FOs.

Thanks!

-Boo!
 
stillaboo said:
B190, do you work for GS? A simple yes, no, or NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS would work fine for me.

I ask b/c most guys don't have experience flying with 250 hr FO's, other than at a couple companies. If you do work GS and want to elaborate, I'd love to know how many of the PFT'r guys end up getting hired at GS as FOs.

Thanks!

-Boo!

Yes I do work for GS. In the past, a large number of competent FO's got hired. It recent years obviously the hiring had slowed down or even come to a halt. Depending on how many more pilots we lose to other companies or how many more upgrade, the hiring will resume.
 
A couple more questions then

B190Captain said:
It recent years obviously the hiring had slowed down or even come to a halt.

Since the FO's aren't being hired, but rather replaced with new blood (am I wrong on this?), what are most of the post-contract FO's doing once their contract with GS expires? Get their CFI and teach, getting hired for KingAir 135 jobs, flying checks, etc?

Is there more supply for Gulfstream contract FO's than there are seats available (aka, are the GS FO's flying beyond their 250 hour contract b/c of a lack of applicants)?

Thanks for the info, B190.

-Boo!
 
Re: A couple more questions then

stillaboo said:
Since the FO's aren't being hired, but rather replaced with new blood (am I wrong on this?), what are most of the post-contract FO's doing once their contract with GS expires?

Most of them are coming to Pinnacle, but some are going to Colgan or other airlines. Only a handful are not getting work after leaving GIA. Of course, I don't know what is going to happen when Pinnacle doesn't need any more FOs. I've heard that GIA is trying to work a deal with Chit-taco to send people there also.
 
Re: A couple more questions then

stillaboo said:
Since the FO's aren't being hired, but rather replaced with new blood (am I wrong on this?), what are most of the post-contract FO's doing once their contract with GS expires? Get their CFI and teach, getting hired for KingAir 135 jobs, flying checks, etc?

Is there more supply for Gulfstream contract FO's than there are seats available (aka, are the GS FO's flying beyond their 250 hour contract b/c of a lack of applicants)?

Thanks for the info, B190.

-Boo!

Some already have their CFI's and they do look for employment teaching. Some go to Pinnacle, corporate etc.. There have been no FO's that are part of the program that fly beyond the 250 unless hired by the company.

Some express interest in staying with GS and they have to acquire at leat 3 letters of recommendation from Captains that they have flown with.

They are later interviewed for hire or placed in a pool until they are needed. In recent months 6 FO's were upgraded and looks like 6 more will be upgraded in the near future. Whether that will open some slots for FO's, I don't know for sure. I would hope so.

As for the Chautauqua deal, that is news to me.

Fly Safe!!
 
A good point was raised , you know. This sounds like your company is having a problem recruiting (and training?) a good quality applicant. Since I couldn't even speculate as to who I think this might be, I'd sugggest that you do whatever you can to change this.

Little did I know that your company wasn't recruiting at all, in the conventional sense.

Recruiting means seeking out qualified people and training them, at your expense, to a level appropriate to begin their IOE and paying them a salary that is competitive with the industry.

The problem is one of the business model: the selling of pilot positions. Who is this a problem for? Every pilot who has followed the established pattern of training and experience, and every qualified pilot who needs a job.
 
Timebuilder said:
Sure they do. Look at the companies they contract to do their feeder work. They are making sure that pilot wages are kept low. The unions of the parent companies are not only allowing it, they are counting on it.

The human parents that you mention, few that they are, are helping to keep wages low, too, in the hopes that their child will be able to hold a line in the shrinking world of the "major" airline, where a contract will hopefully keep them in that upper five percent of pilots. By using PFT, they are guaranteeing that other pilots who are competing with their sons and daughters will have fewer paying jobs available because the shady operators see that these pilots and their parents are willing to sacrifice the viability of the profession by paying for a job.

Maybe that will change!!

Federal Court OK's Lawsuit Against Pilots' Union,
Thwarts Union Effort to Preserve Separate Levels of Representation;
Recommends Pilots Seek Class-Action Status

June 25, Cincinnati-- Thwarting plans of the Air Line Pilots Association [ALPA] to continue using "scope" clauses of collective bargaining agreements to create a lower caste of ALPA member, a federal court permitted claims alleging that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation ["DFR"] to go forward. The decision will allow pilots at Comair, Inc., a Delta subsidiary, to make their case that ALPA maintains two levels of representation-- one for the higher-paid "mainline" pilots at such carriers as Delta, and a lower level of representation for pilots at "regional" airlines.

In a lengthy decision in Ford v. Air Line Pilots Association, International, Judge I. Leo Glasser of the United States District Court for the Eastern District of New York upheld the right of hundreds of Comair pilots to sue their union for working against their interests.

Although Judge Glasser dismissed a range of side claims, the main thrust of the lawsuit, dealing with the duty of fair representation, was allowed to go forward. Specifically, the claim that prevailed against ALPA's motion to dismiss was the one in which plaintiffs sought a myriad of injunctive relief to prevent ALPA from negotiating Delta collective bargaining agreements that wield economic harm upon ALPA's Comair constituency. The claim that was upheld alleges that ALPA uses the scope clause of the Delta collective bargaining agreement as a remote control device to limit flying at Comair, thus limiting the career growth and earning potential of Comair pilots. Judge Glasser's decision is believed to be the first time that a federal court has recognized that ALPA has a potential conflict of interest in representing both "mainline" and "regional" pilots.


A similar lawsuit was filed against ALPA last month by pilots at Atlantic Southeast Airlines, Inc. [ASA]. It is as yet unclear how the court's ruling will impact current bargaining between Delta and its pilots, but Captain Daniel Ford, President of the umbrella organization that is coordinating the Comair and ASA lawsuits, said the decision "ushers in a new era in union representation of pilots at so-called "regional" carriers. Ford, who heads the Regional Jet Defense Coalition, said, "ALPA is going to have to sit up and take notice that it is accountable to all its members and can no longer sacrifice its constituents at smaller carriers to appease its large carrier membership."

Judge Glasser, in a 39-page decision, wrote, "Plaintiffs have sufficiently stated a claim that ALPA breached its duty of fair representation by allegedly negotiating contracts that arbitrarily favor the Delta pilots over the Comair pilots." The Court specifically found invalid ALPA's insistence that the dispute between it and its Comair members should be relegated to the National Mediation Board, which has little if any power to address the dispute.

The Judge also permitted more than 300 additional Comair pilots to join the lawsuit, but strongly suggested that the case be converted into a class action on behalf of all Comair pilots. The Court directed the parties to address that issue within 30 days.
 
Now that's interesting.

I recall reading on this board how the suit would never go forward, would be thrown out, etc, etc, and the regional pilots would be sorry they had brought this action.

I don't think so.

The duty of fair representation idea was established long before we had any jets at all, large or small.
 
I'm a CFI and teaching has definitely made me a better pilot. But if i had the chance to PFT...I'd do it in a heart beat...If you have the money than why not just do it...whats the problem...is there a law against it?? or maybe i dont know about it..I think you have to do what you have to do to get there..minus breaking any rules of course..so good luck!!
 
P-F-T

superrav said:
I'm a CFI and teaching has definitely made me a better pilot. But if i had the chance to PFT...I'd do it in a heart beat...If you have the money than why not just do it...whats the problem...is there a law against it?? or maybe i dont know about it..I think you have to do what you have to do to get there..minus breaking any rules of course..so good luck!!
So, you like people who butt in ahead of you in line? How did you like it the last time someone cut in ahead of you on final?

Just a little food for thought. Define rule-breaking. P-F-T may not be illegal per se, but, as they say, it's a dog-eat-dog world out there. :rolleyes: :(
 
Well, let me say, I do appreciate the points of view expressed here. And im very glad to here from people that look at PFT in a different light,
But...
So, you like people who butt in ahead of you in line? How did you like it the last time someone cut in ahead of you on final?

Status in life and how one achieved this point seems to be a real concern for the ANTI-PFT crowd, but I find it ironic that "most" of these people are PRO-UNION, and which is usually represented by the Left side of the politcal fence. The same side of the fence that supports Affirmative action. Which all leads down to the ultimate cutting in line issue. Is it fair and honorable to get somewhere just because of racial preferences, And Im not sure about the reply about the lawsuit against the union, I dont know much about other than what i just read. But it sounded like this beloved union that you hold so dear, screwed the little man. The one thing I have learned in life is dont put much stock in anyone except myself. I like to believe I control my Destiny.

It was good to here from someone who had the first hand account of the finished product between CFI and PFT. it seems as if we are very close in our ability to be a good pilot. there is good and bad in every bunch.

Although I have got a least 2yrs of school left, It leaves me lots to think about,

Thank you for adding to this discussion.
Dean
 

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