PFT-Let it fly!

[B190Captain]

Now, if you can gain the necessary experience through paid work outside of instruction, and you can pass muster in an interview, then good for you. If, however, you pay to occupy the seat that should be manned by a qualified pilot, that is PFT and is a different matter alltogether.

Manned by a qualified pilot? you mean experienced right?

 

[46Driver]

What de727ups said was not uncommon. We had quite a few helo pilots out of this base (and others) PFT. Helo pilots would report to base ops and if they were lucky enough to get assigned to T-34C's, yippee, they were all set. If the Col said we are short helo instructors, you could hear the groan of the pilot who just realizes he has to now pony up $10k + to compete.

 

[stillaboo]

Re: Tradition

Im confused because I read alot about how that aviators up in the ranks dont give darn about where you learned to fly as long as you do what you were hired on to do.

Let me un-confuse you, then. PFT guys were hired on to line the pockets of their company and fill a seat. You walked right into that one, Dean. Sorry )

When you PFT, you may get hours in your log that are more impressive, but the reason these hours are impressive is that you are assuming these hours logged imply the level of knowledge, skill, and responsibility normally required to log those hours. When you pay to sit in the seat, the normal pre-requisites of knowledge, skill, and responsibility aren't there anymore. That is how the hours that a PFT pilot logs aren't comparable to those of a non-PFT position, and why many would hire a CFI before a PFT. The PFT guy may be an excellent pilot who would fit into the company 'like a glove', but the mere payment for hours leaves the interviewer no objective way of evaluating the PFT applicant's ability (I'll leave the character debate for another time)

Dean, you generally sound as if you're level headed when you ask questions, and then, when accepted industry standards are brought up to answer your questions, you call their views as 'out-of-touch' or 'not representative of the majority'. Since you are not a professional pilot, than how do you profess to know what is 'in-touch' or what the majority of us might think about an issue you don't even fully understand? (though I admire you for trying to)

When you interview, pilots are hiring you based on your ability to be a good captain, a leader and your 'fit' within the company (for instance, it was recently pointed out that JetBlue pilots help clean their aircraft. If you think cleaning is beneath a pilot, then you might not be a good fit at 'Blue). In short, could I, the interviewer, sit in a cockpit with you for a month and not go crazy. And if I did, and subsequently passed out, could you then take command of the aircraft, the passengers, the crew, and the situation and land the plane safely (ideally without the passengers even noticing that command of the aircraft had changed). When you PFT, your position in the right seat and your hours do not demonstrate anything interviewers can draw upon to objectively determine whether they should hire you. At best, the experience is seen as merely experience (and 250 hours of any experience from a Cub to Concorde isn't going to get you anywhere these days!). At worst, it's a 1-way ticket to a rejection letter.

-Boo!

Maybe MAPD might be for you.

No you di' ent', Bobby! PFT'ing guys would fit in at Freedom, though. A decision that would possibly advance my career at the expense of my fellow pilots? Its PFT, its Freedom, its Republic, its . . . not a wise career move.

 

[Timebuilder]

Manned by a qualified pilot? you mean experienced right?

I talking about the standards that most cariers have in place for a new hire in a twin tuboprop. A certain amount of TT, multi, instrument, etc. If you had been hired and been paid as a required crewmwmber in a King Air or similar, all the better. This doesn't mean you were paid out of the money you had given to the employer.

This "qualified" doesn't mean PFT experience, which almost any young pilot who can write a check can get. Qualified means you were able to pass muster without greasing the palm of a shady operator, and were hired because of your record of success and your skills.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pity

So if you are looking for someone to fill sorry for the people who instruct and are struggling, you will not get it from me. Life is tough and we all struggle . . . . I have worked for everything i have. Daddy or this Gov. hasnt given me anything. I pay my dues a little more everyday . . .

"You got to pay your dues if you want to sing the blues . . . And, you know, it don't come easy . . . . ." Ringo Starr, circa 1970.

So, now, you're injecting pity into this discussion? Who said anything about feeling sorry for any one? Another red herring. Try respect.

I have a friend of ten years who's approximately my age. Our birthdays are within days of each other. Good pilot and instructor. Good guy. We worked at the same (lousy) company, which was rife with politics. We worked in a foreign airline contract program. The inmates, i.e. the students, were running the asylum. The bosses, who were totally spineless, catered to their whims, and also to the dollar, meaning at times we felt pressure to fly in inappropriate conditions (These bosses were ex-AF types who knew nothing about small airplanes). We were both bounced eventually. I, reluctantly, opted out of aviation because I saw no real future for me at my age. My friend hung in. He has faltered along the way, but is still flying airplanes for pay. He sure has my respect.

Everyone has choices. You can choose to P-F-T, or choose not to. I submit that circumventing the traditional process referenced above has its potential consquences, i.e. being blackballed at the most important interview of your life. Captain Faust made his choice. You have yours to make as well.

Somehow, Dean, I believe that many of your comments are borne of inexperience in the aviation business. You have admitted as much. Once you've been in it for a while you'll see what some of us are talking about.

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree.

I think Dean is probably a hardworking young dad who just needs some more guidance and exposure to the ways of aviation. Maybe some more life experience, too.

 

[Dean]

I in no way said that i didnt have respect for a pilot that came up this way, and this is no RED HERRING. You Pointed out "What would a pilot think that had to struggle..". the fact that the word "struggle" was mention leads one to think that you were looking for pity. NEVER, NEVER NEVER did I say i disrespect CFI. I for one think I have been very fortunate to have a very good and understanding CFI. I have the upmost respect for this man.

To confess, up to date I have only met one other CFI, and that was on one of my x-country hops. And when I met the Cat he was laid back on the couch, smaken on some big piece of something, and holding his big aviator sunglasses like he was tom cruise in Top Gun. It didnt take 5sec to figure out this guy was full of hisself. in this case, he did not earn any respect from me. In every career field, their going to be people, who no matter what road they took, that deserves respect. I believe evey one deserves respect until they prove other wise.

So I didnt Inject nothing, just responding to what you said.

And I will admit that I dont have much expeirence with aviation other than my training for PPL. But I have been trying to look at PFT in an objective view and without all of the emotions that go with it. My questions were just what is PFT, Is it safe, does it work, why do some oppose it so much, and does the opposition's disagreement have merit?

These are things I was curious about? In no way to all the CFIs in here, Im I trying to be a hard A$$, and I do respect the route that you have taken.

Thanks

 

[B190Captain]

Many guys just starting out in the career have little respect for unions, ALPA, and the profession in general....and that's why PFT doesn't look bad to them. They only see what's good for them at the moment and what will get them ahead faster. Can't say as I really blame them, as I have been there and understand the frustration.

Little respect for unions? I fail to understand your statement since a significant percentage of these FO's that come through the program are sons and daughters of Delta, Continental, American, United senior captains. I am sure that parental guidance, especially from parents that have been in the industry 20-30 years, would harm their kid's career by sending them to a school that sells experience.

It comes down to this, NO ONE CARES HOW YOU GOT YOUR EXPERIENCE as long as your numbers are competitive and you never crossed a picket line to get it. In fact, I have flown with alot of these FO's and quite a few of them are CFI, II's and MEI's and still come through the FO deal. So please, disprespect for unions has nothing to do with this.

This hostility towards PFT should be directed to management of companies that hire pilots that have got experience however they got it and put them in the right seat of a CRJ or ERJ and pay them $19.00/hr. to do it. Now that is disrespectful to pilots and Unions!!

Fly Safe!

 

[Timebuilder]

This hostility towards PFT should be directed to management of companies that hire pilots that have got experience however they got it and put them in the right seat of a CRJ or ERJ and pay them $19.00/hr. to do it. Now that is disrespectful to pilots and Unions!!

Would that include the management of the companies you mentioned above, where the parents of those FO's work ?

 

[bigD]

This hostility towards PFT should be directed to management of companies that hire pilots that have got experience however they got it and put them in the right seat of a CRJ or ERJ and pay them $19.00/hr. to do it.

But there shouldn't be any hostility towards airlines that hire pilots to the right seat of a 1900, and expect the PILOTS to pay $100/hr?

 

[B190Captain]

Would that include the management of the companies you mentioned above, where the parents of those FO's work ?

Ahh no. UAL, AAL, DAL and CAL don't agree to contracts that pay FO's 19.00/hr to fly CRJ's and ERJ's. I am referring to most Regional airlines.

As for caring what kind of experience prospective employees have whether it be PFT or not? NO, the above do not care.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ahh no. UAL, AAL, DAL and CAL don't agree to contracts that pay FO's 19.00/hr to fly CRJ's and ERJ's.

Sure they do. Look at the companies they contract to do their feeder work. They are making sure that pilot wages are kept low. The unions of the parent companies are not only allowing it, they are counting on it.

The human parents that you mention, few that they are, are helping to keep wages low, too, in the hopes that their child will be able to hold a line in the shrinking world of the "major" airline, where a contract will hopefully keep them in that upper five percent of pilots. By using PFT, they are guaranteeing that other pilots who are competing with their sons and daughters will have fewer paying jobs available because the shady operators see that these pilots and their parents are willing to sacrifice the viability of the profession by paying for a job.

 

[B190Captain]

Sure they do. Look at the companies they contract to do their feeder work. They are making sure that pilot wages are kept low. The unions of the parent companies are not only allowing it, they are counting on it.

The human parents that you mention, few that they are, are helping to keep wages low, too, in the hopes that their child will be able to hold a line in the shrinking world of the "major" airline, where a contract will hopefully keep them in that upper five percent of pilots. By using PFT, they are guaranteeing that other pilots who are competing with their sons and daughters will have fewer paying jobs available because the shady operators see that these pilots and their parents are willing to sacrifice the viability of the profession by paying for a job.

They are NOT paying for a job. They pay for the experience.

As for your previous point, I am sure there is influence by the parent company to keep wages low but the pilot group has to agree to it if represented by a union.

 

[bigD]

They are NOT paying for a job. They pay for the experience.

Boy, do I feel like an @ss. All these years I've been taking advantage of the company I work for. They've been paying me to write games for them, when in fact I should have been paying THEM for getting the experience of writing the code!

I better go talk to my manager about this. The guilt is gonna kill me...

 

[Timebuilder]

They are NOT paying for a job. They pay for the experience.

Let me clarify this for you. In PFT, there are paying customers who are unaware that the crew includes a person who paid for the position which they occupy. If the pilot was merely paying for experience, then there would be no PFT. Instead, several pilots would be going up in an airplane and training. Nothing wrong with training. When you put people or cargo into the plane, and charge for the service, then it is a JOB, and the paying pilot is PFT.

Clearly, in PFT these "paying pilots" are displacing someone from a PAID pilot position.

That's the difference.

As for your previous point, I am sure there is influence by the parent company to keep wages low but the pilot group has to agree to it if represented by a union.

This can only happen because these smaller pilot groups were abandoned in the contracts that the parent company unions had signed. Now, the parent unions are seeing their working membership shrink while these low cost operations are growing.

There is no justification for PFT. It reduces paying jobs, and creates the impression that pilots see themselves as worthless.

Then, they are paid accordingly.

 

[bobbysamd]

Square pegs for square holes

As for caring what kind of experience prospective employees have whether it be PFT or not?

The H.R. coneheads could care less. All these idiots do is review resumes and ensure they have enough precisely square pegs to fill the square holes for the upcoming round of interviews. Talk about not thinking outside the box . . . but that's a discussion for another time.

I would submit that your workgroup will care a heap. I.e., your fellow pilots. They will care that you worked your way up, not paid your way up. Once again, tradition. Not cutting in front of people in line. Being there because you should be there, and not being some 300-hour United wonder.

I like Big D's comment. My last employer always regarded the experience we gained in her law office as a gift. Man, would she go to town if there was such a thing as P-F-T for paralegals!

 

[46Driver]

"I will submit that your workgroup will care a heap." Actually, if the pilots come from the military, chances are they are not going to care - most of them consider PFT as just a function of capitalistic supply and demand. As for "cutting in a line", minorites and females with less qualifications get hired ahead of others - but that's life - deal with it. And judging by all of the hundreds of people on this website and only the same half dozen or so who get their panties in a wad, I would venture the real world would be the same.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe we should cut funding for veterans, the GI Bill, and military housing allowance. After all, that's just what many people in Washington would like. They would rather protect some endangered species, right?

Should we just say " but that's life - deal with it. "?

No, I don't think so. Just because some folks think it's okay doesn't make it okay.

"Actually, if the pilots come from the military, chances are they are not going to care - most of them consider PFT as just a function of capitalistic supply and demand."

I refuse to believe that most military pilots could be so short sighted and self centered as you suggest. At least, none that I would care to know.


It is not capitalism, it is exploitation. Maybe you would like to belive that this is in some strange way the equivalent of racial and gender preferences, but it is not. The pilots I know from the military think that PFT shows a lack of honor.

Perhaps that quality is now in short supply...

 

[bobbysamd]

Affirmative action - thread creep

As for "cutting in a line", minorites and females with less qualifications get hired ahead of others - but that's life - deal with it.

Okay. Anyone for a discussion on yesterday's Supreme Court decision upholding part of the University of Michigan's affirmative action program?

Here's a link to a recent story and reaction.

 

[Timebuilder]

I found it interesting that the court found that among equally qualifed law school applicants, race could be considered as a factor, but the point system used by the undergraduate program was struck down.

What will the replacement undergrad system be?