PFT-Let it fly!

[Dean]

yes. The military thing is a different issue, but my point i was trying to make is who has the right to say tradition. where does it start and where does it end?

 

[Timebuilder]

So if you are an interviewer and here set 2 pilots applying for a spot, and one of these men was a CFI who had only very minimal CFI time and no exposer to a jet or turbo prop aircraft and the other who has and is now very comfortable handling the type of aircraft you have you would rather pick the guy that was a CFI just because you felt it was the noble thing to do.

Not because it is the noble thing to do, or even because it is the more economical thing to do. It is because the guy who paid for a pilot position thought he didn't have to put in the time and the work required in order to earn the position, and thought he could push ahead in line of the other guy. Most people don't like that. In addition, the CFI candidate had to meet the basic requirements of total time and multiengine time. If someone else thought he was a good enough pilot to pay him to earn those hours, rather than the applicant going out and buying those hours, then he comes with a track record of earned success. He will likely be trainable to the company's standards, and will not bring any preconceived notions of his own to the new company.

Not only in a time of economic slowdown did you just help add to financial burden that your company most now deal with but in some cases it could mean the difference between sink or swim for a small business. And just because you felt noble not only are there less capital for the company to invest but also there went all the Christmas bonuses as well.

Why don't we apply this to all aviation jobs? I'll bet you there are a lot of pople who would love to fly airplanes for free.

I won't fly in the back, though. I'll leave that for the very brave. Or, the very stupid.

 

[Draginass]

When it comes to hiring, we're going to train the individual pilot anyway. It's required. What we hire at a major airline is potential and personality. The potential to complete training without problems and the personality to fit into the company ethos.

The reason that military pilots are often hired by major airlines is that they have already shown the ability to complete a complex training program and have experience in fast/heavy aircraft. In short, the course completion rate for military pilots is somewhat higher than pure civilian pilots (although both completion rates are very high). You can also factor in some bias, no doubt.

The way I look at PFT pilots is that they probably paid to ride along in the right seat to log some time, without getting the actual hands-on or PIC experience. The flight instructor might not have logged ride-along time in that turboprop flying checks at night, but his PIC time instructing and flying charter in that twin Cessna is worth alot more in terms of experience and judgement.

 

[Dean]

I won't fly in the back, though. I'll leave that for the very brave. Or, the very stupid.

If your implying that the PFT person is dangerous and the people in the back are stupid. Then show me Statisticly where this type of training is a cause for concern. If you can show me that in hard factual Evidence then I will think twice about this PFT, but i dont think you can. It seems this a matter of jealousy and or opinion. Please show me where this caused one death among a paying passenger.

 

[Timebuilder]

There are plenty of situations in life that I don't need statistics to suggest that I don't want to be involved in them.

I think passengers are brave or stupid to fly in an aircraft where any member of the flight crew is paying for the privilege of filling a required pilot position. This is beacuse the person was chosen for the position not because of skill or experience, but because the operator decided that he could take advantage of eager and uninformed pilots while lining his pockets with money from the crew and the unknowing passengers.

I am implying that the person who has followed the more traditional path has more, and more varied, flying experience than a person who has a few hundred hours and some specialized training thanks to parting with some extra cash. I am recognizing that this pilot has helped to lower wages by lowering the value of a pilot on the open market because he lowered his own value by paying for a job.

Please show me where this caused one death among a paying passenger.

While a passenger death might be your standard for this, my standard is the death of a paid pilot position, every single time someones chooses PFT.

 

[Dean]

my standard is the death of a paid pilot position, every single time someones chooses PFT.

you confirmed my point exactly when you said "My Standard" which equates to your opinion. thats all nothing more or nothing less. Because this whole PFT issue is the result of some sour person not getting what he thought he should.

 

[Timebuilder]

One again, you are assuming. You know what happens when you assume.

My Standard, as you call it, is the standard shared by thousands of professional aviators. It is a standard that was imparted to me when I was considering going PFT. Rather than take the easy, cheesey way, I opted to follow the wisdom of these high time aviators. So your assumtion of my opinion (opinions make the world go around, my friend) being the result of not being able to participate in PFT myself is a bad assumption, indeed.

Because this whole PFT issue is the result of some sour person not getting what he thought he should.

I have gotten everything that I have worked for, and more. I'm not significantly bothered by the fact that I am currently out of work. That will change soon enough, and when the time is right.

What bothers me is when people hurt the flying profession and themselves by agreeing to prostitute themselves on the hope of satisfying their desire to get ahead. Maybe this is a part of the culture of situational ethics that brought us Enron.

When people try to bypass the accepted standards of behavior, problems soon follow. Look around.

 

[Dean]

TimeBuilder

My Standard, as you call it, is the standard shared by thousands of professional aviators.

Thats funny


jdog said

there is a very vocal minority that scream bloody murder every time anything even remotely resembling PFT is mentioned. While they have valid reasons, most pilots are probably not as vehemently opposed.

So who are the thuosands of people who share your thoughts. Im confused because I read alot about how that aviators up in the ranks dont give darn about where you learned to fly as long as you do what you were hired on to do.

I would agree with Jdog on this point. I think there is a small number that actually care about this. Its like a small oil leak that can cause a big mess, in the end its just a small oil leak

 

[Timebuilder]

Im confused because I read alot about how that aviators up in the ranks dont give darn about where you learned to fly as long as you do what you were hired on to do.

Who are they? They are the military pilots who ensured your freedom, and are the reason you speak English instead of some other language, such as German or Japanese while growing up in America.

They are the people who built commercial aviation from the ground up, the people who gave their word as their bond, and flew primitive equipment through all kinds of weather.

They are the people who advanced the lifestyle that the senior pilots enjoy, and to which many aspire. They are our fathers and grandfathers. They are worth listening to.

You may "read a lot" about pilots who don't give a darn about where you learned to fly. That makes sense. That has nothing whatever to do with PFT.

I would agree with Jdog on this point.

Really? I wonder why? Did you take into account that he also said this?

However, a 24 year old like you or me with time on our side really should do the CFI route. After getting my instructor ratings, I must say that I am an infinitely better pilot for doing so, and I have a marketable skill to show for it. Assuming they do not raise the retirement age, we have 36 years to establish ourselves in the industry. What's the rush? WIth the industry the way it is right now, even those who go to a place like Gulfstream may find they are hurrying up only to wait....nobody is hiring 500 hour pilots that I know of.
In the end, you must evaluate your set of circumstances and do what's right for you. However, I think you might want to consider at least obtaining your instructor ratings. You will be a better pilot for doing so.

Its like a small oil leak that can cause a big mess, in the end its just a small oil leak

Until it's on your pants. Then, it's a big deal, isn't it?

You do what you like. Just like the Dixie Chicks, don't be surprised when your decision comes back to bite you on the hiney.

 

[bobbysamd]

Vet school compared to P-F-T

The logic that anti-pft uses is the same as saying before you can get a degree you should graduate having completed 12th grade and then spent exactly 4yrs in college and then you should do some teaching somewhere in between. There was a kid at my university that I think was 16 and got his undergrad degree in pre-vet. Just because this kid was able to do this, using your logic, the kid should not be considerd a viable candidate for grad school.

Compariing the medical, or veterinary, profession to professional aviation is bogus. You cannot compare educational quals to career development. Everyone has to earn their basic credentials.

In this kid's case, he earned his undergrad degree at 16. He was gifted. Most of the rest of us get ours at age 22. The kid did not cut in line ahead of his peers to go to college. He very well could have stayed in high school and graduated at age 18. He was gifted. The time he spent in school is irrelevant and immaterial. He will still have to attend vet school and go through the appropriate post-vet-school training before he can practice his profession, just like others who are older.

[J]ust because someone goes PFT and can learn and retain their skills in that kind of environment does not make them less of a pilot. Being a pilot is not rocket science . . .

Some people would argue otherwise.

In any event, you have raised two points, competency, and necessity to instruct. Competency is assumed. Necessity to instruct? Not necessarily. Some (fortunate) new 250-hour pilots get non-instructing jobs, somehow, somewhere. The reason why getting instructor credentials is so often recommended is that flight instructing is the easiest entry-level job to get.

You call instructing the "noble" route, as compared to P-F-T. As they say in law, res ipsa loquitor, meaning "the thing speaks for itself."

Finally, you say that anti-P-F-T sentiment turns on jealousy. I'd say that it turns more on pride and respect. Or, "250 hours of paid-for First Officer time at Gulfstream and then possibly being hired? $23,940. Getting a First Officer job on your own merits? Priceless."

 

[Dean]

Ok, First let me say..What is the whole History lesson about? Do somehow think that I dont appreciate what our military has done for us. Dont think your friends and family are the only ones who has gone off to war. I recently had a friend in school whos brother got KIA in Iraq. I have the upmost respect for these guys. And are you implying that because Im raise the question on PFT that Im a cheat, and in some way dont know what it means to Volunteer yourself for your country. Well let me tell you something about My spirit of public service. I spent first 5yrs out of High school as a Volunteer Fire fighter. I spent countless hours training volutarerly for that moment when someone needed my help.

I enjoyed helping out on the technical side of Rescue so much that I spent 3 semesters getting my EMT-IV lic. That was all out of my pocket not by some organization or my parents. I love helping people in any way I can. Having been exposed to this environment, I took a step further in learning further technical procedures. Im now certified HighAngle/underwater/cave/advanced extrication and just got the PPL. So I know what it means to serve ones Community and Country.

second. Let me say that getting a job on ones on merit should be priceless, but are you superior to the guy who holds every rating that you hold but probably want have the hours you have totaled but the quality of his hours would be better. Does Instructer experience make you King. I think anyone who achieves all his rating should not hold his head down for nobody. When he has everything you do and maybe more.

 

[Timebuilder]

The history lesson is because you asked who these high time airline guys were who said that PFT was poison. I attempted to give you an answer. Take it for whatever it's worth to you. If you hear that it's okay, you are listening to a whole different group of pilots.

I am a volunteer member of my local department. I'm glad that you see fit to help out.

I think anyone who achieves all his rating should not hold his head down for nobody.

No. That is, unless he buys a job instead of earning it.

Then, he should run and hide.



Lighten up, kid, and don't PFT.

 

[jdog78]

Dean, ultimately, the choice to PFT is a personal one. You must consider the needs of your family, economic variables, return on investment, etc., before making such an important decision. Consider all of your training an investment in your career and make choices that will maximize return. At this time, I don't consider PFT programs to be a wise investment. You would invest $20K+ for time in a 1900 with no guarantees of employment afterward. Then consider that there are literally thousands of pilots with impressive credentials that cannot find jobs. No person has to right to say that those pilots are more entitled to a job than one who did PFT, but the reality is that the PFT guy with 500 hours will be passed over in favor of a more experienced pilot.
These are tough times and it requires some creativity to get where we want to go. Consider this: with $24K, you could get your instructor ratings, and have enough left over to rent a 152 for 300 hours. You could join Civil Air Patrol and gain even more experience and a resume booster. There are lots of options.
I suggest you set aside all ethical arguments and simply ask yourself if a PFT program would be a wise investment of your time and money for what you may (or may not) get in return.

Best regards,
-j

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. volunteerism

Ok, First let me say..What is the whole History lesson about?

Well, my friend, you opened the door . . . .

And are you implying that because Im raise the question on PFT that Im a cheat, and in some way dont know what it means to Volunteer yourself for your country . . . .

After reading this sentence I must second Timebuilder's comment, above, about your critical thinking abilities. Volunteerism has nothing to do with cheating or paying-for-training. Your injection of volunteerism into this discussion is a red herring.

On the other hand, P-F-T and all that it implies has everything to do with cheating. Reread my comments above about cutting in line.

[A]re you superior to the guy who holds every rating that you hold but probably want have the hours you have totaled but the quality of his hours would be better. Does Instructer experience make you King.

(emphasis added)

Now, that's something we can discuss. From rereading your first post I surmise that you are torn between instructing and P-F-T. Black, or white. Nothing in between. I also gather that you really do not want to instruct.

No. Instructor experience does not necessarily make you king. Take a look at my profile. If anything, I was probably perceived as a serf. Regional airlines feel that instructing experience is desirable because it exhibits an ability to communicate with people and to use CRM. However, the overall presentation of the applicant is scrutinized, i.e., as you put it, quality of experience. The regionals hire lots of non-instructors.

That would raise the question if purchased P-F-T experience is quality experience, and if that makes for a quality applicant. I submit that it does not. You can buy just about anything, including 121 flight time. Such places as Gulfstream and others make a big deal about their "stringent" entry requirements. In truth, the only entry requirement is your ability to pay; therefore, the experience is not as valuable as that which you earned. We had a discussion before about the apparent small numbers of Gulfstream P-F-T FOs who are hired into real Gulfstream jobs after their P-F-T stints are up.

Look, if you do not want to instruct after you finish your ratings, then do not instruct. More power to you if you can find a real flying job at 250 hours.

 

[pilotyip]

Not to judge

rehash of an old tread. In the mid 90's PFT was very common. I was set up to interview at two PFT companies in 1996, ACA who wanted 10K for a J-41 F/O seat (no type rating), a job I should have taken because I would have made capt. in about 4-6 months, but they told me Capt would be 2-3 years. The PFT was affordable, but I could not live on J-41 F/O pay that long. All the guys who were hired that year are now senior RJ Capt's at ACA, if they did not go someplace else. The other company flew their DC-9 into the swamp in Fla 5 days before my interview. I elected not to go to the interview, since they had quit flying and did not answer the phone. But Value Jet charged 10K for a FSI DC-9 type. All the guys who hired before me are senior AirTran Capt's if they stayed there. Neither of these PFT jobs from the past would be considered bad jobs by 90% of the people reading this board. The bottom line PFT may give you opportunities that lead to a good job, it is up to the individual to see if PFT is right for them or not. If a person PFT's it doesn't mark them as a non-professional pilot. I may have taken either one of these jobs, at the time. I wanted to fly, I could afford the PFT and these were at the time career positions. I was 52 years old, a military trained 10K hour pilot, 4 type ratings. Had I paid my dues? 8 jobs, Viet Nam, who is to judge? Now someone who pays GS 20K for no job, moves into the category of "WTF why did he do that?" range, but it is not up to the indivdiuals on this board to judge anyone by PFT. It is an indivdual choice, and in the "ole days" wa much more common than it is now.


Last edited by pilotyip on 06-18-2003