PFT-Let it fly!

[Dean]

my standard is the death of a paid pilot position, every single time someones chooses PFT.

you confirmed my point exactly when you said "My Standard" which equates to your opinion. thats all nothing more or nothing less. Because this whole PFT issue is the result of some sour person not getting what he thought he should.

 

[Timebuilder]

One again, you are assuming. You know what happens when you assume.

My Standard, as you call it, is the standard shared by thousands of professional aviators. It is a standard that was imparted to me when I was considering going PFT. Rather than take the easy, cheesey way, I opted to follow the wisdom of these high time aviators. So your assumtion of my opinion (opinions make the world go around, my friend) being the result of not being able to participate in PFT myself is a bad assumption, indeed.

Because this whole PFT issue is the result of some sour person not getting what he thought he should.

I have gotten everything that I have worked for, and more. I'm not significantly bothered by the fact that I am currently out of work. That will change soon enough, and when the time is right.

What bothers me is when people hurt the flying profession and themselves by agreeing to prostitute themselves on the hope of satisfying their desire to get ahead. Maybe this is a part of the culture of situational ethics that brought us Enron.

When people try to bypass the accepted standards of behavior, problems soon follow. Look around.

 

[Dean]

TimeBuilder

My Standard, as you call it, is the standard shared by thousands of professional aviators.

Thats funny


jdog said

there is a very vocal minority that scream bloody murder every time anything even remotely resembling PFT is mentioned. While they have valid reasons, most pilots are probably not as vehemently opposed.

So who are the thuosands of people who share your thoughts. Im confused because I read alot about how that aviators up in the ranks dont give darn about where you learned to fly as long as you do what you were hired on to do.

I would agree with Jdog on this point. I think there is a small number that actually care about this. Its like a small oil leak that can cause a big mess, in the end its just a small oil leak

 

[Timebuilder]

Im confused because I read alot about how that aviators up in the ranks dont give darn about where you learned to fly as long as you do what you were hired on to do.

Who are they? They are the military pilots who ensured your freedom, and are the reason you speak English instead of some other language, such as German or Japanese while growing up in America.

They are the people who built commercial aviation from the ground up, the people who gave their word as their bond, and flew primitive equipment through all kinds of weather.

They are the people who advanced the lifestyle that the senior pilots enjoy, and to which many aspire. They are our fathers and grandfathers. They are worth listening to.

You may "read a lot" about pilots who don't give a darn about where you learned to fly. That makes sense. That has nothing whatever to do with PFT.

I would agree with Jdog on this point.

Really? I wonder why? Did you take into account that he also said this?

However, a 24 year old like you or me with time on our side really should do the CFI route. After getting my instructor ratings, I must say that I am an infinitely better pilot for doing so, and I have a marketable skill to show for it. Assuming they do not raise the retirement age, we have 36 years to establish ourselves in the industry. What's the rush? WIth the industry the way it is right now, even those who go to a place like Gulfstream may find they are hurrying up only to wait....nobody is hiring 500 hour pilots that I know of.
In the end, you must evaluate your set of circumstances and do what's right for you. However, I think you might want to consider at least obtaining your instructor ratings. You will be a better pilot for doing so.

Its like a small oil leak that can cause a big mess, in the end its just a small oil leak

Until it's on your pants. Then, it's a big deal, isn't it?

You do what you like. Just like the Dixie Chicks, don't be surprised when your decision comes back to bite you on the hiney.

 

[bobbysamd]

Vet school compared to P-F-T

The logic that anti-pft uses is the same as saying before you can get a degree you should graduate having completed 12th grade and then spent exactly 4yrs in college and then you should do some teaching somewhere in between. There was a kid at my university that I think was 16 and got his undergrad degree in pre-vet. Just because this kid was able to do this, using your logic, the kid should not be considerd a viable candidate for grad school.

Compariing the medical, or veterinary, profession to professional aviation is bogus. You cannot compare educational quals to career development. Everyone has to earn their basic credentials.

In this kid's case, he earned his undergrad degree at 16. He was gifted. Most of the rest of us get ours at age 22. The kid did not cut in line ahead of his peers to go to college. He very well could have stayed in high school and graduated at age 18. He was gifted. The time he spent in school is irrelevant and immaterial. He will still have to attend vet school and go through the appropriate post-vet-school training before he can practice his profession, just like others who are older.

[J]ust because someone goes PFT and can learn and retain their skills in that kind of environment does not make them less of a pilot. Being a pilot is not rocket science . . .

Some people would argue otherwise.

In any event, you have raised two points, competency, and necessity to instruct. Competency is assumed. Necessity to instruct? Not necessarily. Some (fortunate) new 250-hour pilots get non-instructing jobs, somehow, somewhere. The reason why getting instructor credentials is so often recommended is that flight instructing is the easiest entry-level job to get.

You call instructing the "noble" route, as compared to P-F-T. As they say in law, res ipsa loquitor, meaning "the thing speaks for itself."

Finally, you say that anti-P-F-T sentiment turns on jealousy. I'd say that it turns more on pride and respect. Or, "250 hours of paid-for First Officer time at Gulfstream and then possibly being hired? $23,940. Getting a First Officer job on your own merits? Priceless."

 

[Dean]

Ok, First let me say..What is the whole History lesson about? Do somehow think that I dont appreciate what our military has done for us. Dont think your friends and family are the only ones who has gone off to war. I recently had a friend in school whos brother got KIA in Iraq. I have the upmost respect for these guys. And are you implying that because Im raise the question on PFT that Im a cheat, and in some way dont know what it means to Volunteer yourself for your country. Well let me tell you something about My spirit of public service. I spent first 5yrs out of High school as a Volunteer Fire fighter. I spent countless hours training volutarerly for that moment when someone needed my help.

I enjoyed helping out on the technical side of Rescue so much that I spent 3 semesters getting my EMT-IV lic. That was all out of my pocket not by some organization or my parents. I love helping people in any way I can. Having been exposed to this environment, I took a step further in learning further technical procedures. Im now certified HighAngle/underwater/cave/advanced extrication and just got the PPL. So I know what it means to serve ones Community and Country.

second. Let me say that getting a job on ones on merit should be priceless, but are you superior to the guy who holds every rating that you hold but probably want have the hours you have totaled but the quality of his hours would be better. Does Instructer experience make you King. I think anyone who achieves all his rating should not hold his head down for nobody. When he has everything you do and maybe more.

 

[Timebuilder]

The history lesson is because you asked who these high time airline guys were who said that PFT was poison. I attempted to give you an answer. Take it for whatever it's worth to you. If you hear that it's okay, you are listening to a whole different group of pilots.

I am a volunteer member of my local department. I'm glad that you see fit to help out.

I think anyone who achieves all his rating should not hold his head down for nobody.

No. That is, unless he buys a job instead of earning it.

Then, he should run and hide.



Lighten up, kid, and don't PFT.

 

[jdog78]

Dean, ultimately, the choice to PFT is a personal one. You must consider the needs of your family, economic variables, return on investment, etc., before making such an important decision. Consider all of your training an investment in your career and make choices that will maximize return. At this time, I don't consider PFT programs to be a wise investment. You would invest $20K+ for time in a 1900 with no guarantees of employment afterward. Then consider that there are literally thousands of pilots with impressive credentials that cannot find jobs. No person has to right to say that those pilots are more entitled to a job than one who did PFT, but the reality is that the PFT guy with 500 hours will be passed over in favor of a more experienced pilot.
These are tough times and it requires some creativity to get where we want to go. Consider this: with $24K, you could get your instructor ratings, and have enough left over to rent a 152 for 300 hours. You could join Civil Air Patrol and gain even more experience and a resume booster. There are lots of options.
I suggest you set aside all ethical arguments and simply ask yourself if a PFT program would be a wise investment of your time and money for what you may (or may not) get in return.

Best regards,
-j

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. volunteerism

Ok, First let me say..What is the whole History lesson about?

Well, my friend, you opened the door . . . .

And are you implying that because Im raise the question on PFT that Im a cheat, and in some way dont know what it means to Volunteer yourself for your country . . . .

After reading this sentence I must second Timebuilder's comment, above, about your critical thinking abilities. Volunteerism has nothing to do with cheating or paying-for-training. Your injection of volunteerism into this discussion is a red herring.

On the other hand, P-F-T and all that it implies has everything to do with cheating. Reread my comments above about cutting in line.

[A]re you superior to the guy who holds every rating that you hold but probably want have the hours you have totaled but the quality of his hours would be better. Does Instructer experience make you King.

(emphasis added)

Now, that's something we can discuss. From rereading your first post I surmise that you are torn between instructing and P-F-T. Black, or white. Nothing in between. I also gather that you really do not want to instruct.

No. Instructor experience does not necessarily make you king. Take a look at my profile. If anything, I was probably perceived as a serf. Regional airlines feel that instructing experience is desirable because it exhibits an ability to communicate with people and to use CRM. However, the overall presentation of the applicant is scrutinized, i.e., as you put it, quality of experience. The regionals hire lots of non-instructors.

That would raise the question if purchased P-F-T experience is quality experience, and if that makes for a quality applicant. I submit that it does not. You can buy just about anything, including 121 flight time. Such places as Gulfstream and others make a big deal about their "stringent" entry requirements. In truth, the only entry requirement is your ability to pay; therefore, the experience is not as valuable as that which you earned. We had a discussion before about the apparent small numbers of Gulfstream P-F-T FOs who are hired into real Gulfstream jobs after their P-F-T stints are up.

Look, if you do not want to instruct after you finish your ratings, then do not instruct. More power to you if you can find a real flying job at 250 hours.

 

[pilotyip]

Not to judge

rehash of an old tread. In the mid 90's PFT was very common. I was set up to interview at two PFT companies in 1996, ACA who wanted 10K for a J-41 F/O seat (no type rating), a job I should have taken because I would have made capt. in about 4-6 months, but they told me Capt would be 2-3 years. The PFT was affordable, but I could not live on J-41 F/O pay that long. All the guys who were hired that year are now senior RJ Capt's at ACA, if they did not go someplace else. The other company flew their DC-9 into the swamp in Fla 5 days before my interview. I elected not to go to the interview, since they had quit flying and did not answer the phone. But Value Jet charged 10K for a FSI DC-9 type. All the guys who hired before me are senior AirTran Capt's if they stayed there. Neither of these PFT jobs from the past would be considered bad jobs by 90% of the people reading this board. The bottom line PFT may give you opportunities that lead to a good job, it is up to the individual to see if PFT is right for them or not. If a person PFT's it doesn't mark them as a non-professional pilot. I may have taken either one of these jobs, at the time. I wanted to fly, I could afford the PFT and these were at the time career positions. I was 52 years old, a military trained 10K hour pilot, 4 type ratings. Had I paid my dues? 8 jobs, Viet Nam, who is to judge? Now someone who pays GS 20K for no job, moves into the category of "WTF why did he do that?" range, but it is not up to the indivdiuals on this board to judge anyone by PFT. It is an indivdual choice, and in the "ole days" wa much more common than it is now.


Last edited by pilotyip on 06-18-2003

 

[Timebuilder]

Now someone who pays GS 20K for no job, moves into the category of "WTF why did he do that?" range, but it is not up to the indivdiuals on this board to judge anyone by PFT.

Everything we do as humans leaves us open to the scrutiny, and yes, the judgement of others. This is a part of human nature.

Further, other people and airlines who are engaging in an act which people see as being negative does not offer any support for other carriers or pilots doing the same thing. In other words, just becuse others have done it does not make it right, or even make it a good thing. In fact, the many carriers that have STOPPED the practice of PFT reminds me of Bobby's latin quote from law, the thing speaks for itself.

Is PFT bad? Well, I hold this truth to be self evident.

 

[pilotyip]

PFT does not work in a hot job market

I could not agree more, it went away pretty much by itself. Companies found PFT limited there choices on pilot candidates and wanted to increase their pool, this was at time the airlines were all making money and did not need the PFT off-set, but to judge someone who had to make a chioce 7-10 years ago in a different job market, is not anyone's call, they were most likely not there and did not face that desision in a market that accepted PFT.

 

[Timebuilder]

they were most likely not there and did not face that desision in a market that accepted PFT.

True.

My point is to dissuade as many as possible from now on and eliminate PFT as an option used by shady operators.

 

[Dean]

After reading this sentence I must second Timebuilder's comment, above, about your critical thinking abilities. Volunteerism has nothing to do with cheating or paying-for-training. Your injection of volunteerism into this discussion is a red herring.

Bobby, after reading this I would question your Critical thinking abilities. The reason for my refering to the military was in reference to who should be the ones to judge. It was all about the tradition thing and not having paid dues to be there. Where does having paid ones dues start and stop. That was it Nothing more nothing less.

Also let me say that, Im not limiting myself to just this PFT/250 hrs from GA. I may be mistaken but you can instruct some there too. No fool should ever expect things to go as advertised. If a person showed up 0hrs, and 300hrs later expect the sea to part just for him then he truly is an idiot. A person must look at the risk and return in every decision he makes. There is no way i would dump 50k out and not leave myself some cushion. If things didnt go as hoped for, then you could go instruct somewhere, and then not only would you still gain hours but you would also have some very nice expeirence and turbo time to go along with it.

And one more question. Im still new to the whole flight training world, but what does it normaly cost for twin engine time. My CFI also flys commercailly by hisself and has several small twins that he flys. Im not sure how he affords all the plains but I think other people own them and they lease out and he is contracted to fly, but anyways, He flys mostly alone. No right seat. If he cut say the hr price in half and let me fly with him, would that be wrong too. It Aint taking no-ones job. But from what i gathered Multi-time Aint cheap, so if he would do I that I would think that would be a good deal. Am I wrong.

 

[Timebuilder]

If you friend is flying as a charter single pilot on someone's air carrier certificate, then you would have many legal hurdles to jump before you would be allowed to touch the controls on those flights. If you friend is flying under part 91, then you might be able to fly with him, particularly if the owner approves of him giving you instruction in the aircraft. You need to become well schooled in the various legal and regulatory requirements for flying and logging time. There are a great many threads here for you to study, so have at it.

Where does having paid ones dues start and stop. That was it Nothing more nothing less.

Good question. As pilots, we are a segment of society. The answer lies in what the proponderance of belief is about what is correct and what is not correct in aviation, based on common values and belief systems such as morals, ethics, and accumulated wisdom.

Once again, you have to address your concerns about the military pilot to those who sit on the hiring boards at airlines, and those who make policy at insurance companies. Often, insurance requirements are far more restrictive than any FAA rule or aviation tradition.

 

[EngineOut]

Well, Dean, if professional aviation was simply a static model of economics, then PFT would fit right in, in terms of "opportunity cost".

Oh, good lord. Aviation is the TEXTBOOK casestudy of economics...I may be banned from posting here after this:

DEAN is correct, particularly after you consider age (or barrier to entry in this case). Every potential pilot candidate is, in effect, starting their own business. Technically, CFIing is PFT. If, perhaps, you don't want to instruct, as many do not, you'd have to pay for a certificate(s) that you'd otherwise NOT NEED.

PFT is an issue only because supply is GREATER than demand. Reverse the scenario (prior to 2000) and then you have pilots making crazy money because demand was GREATER than supply (see UAL).

There is no more a "static" or "fits-the-economic-rules" industry remaining in the US as aviation. Period end.

 

[bobbysamd]

Tradition

Bobby, after reading this I would question your Critical thinking abilities.

Moi?

The reason for my refering to the military was in reference to who should be the ones to judge . . . . .

Read the rest of your question and the answer should be evident . . . .

It was all about the tradition thing and not having paid dues to be there. Where does having paid ones dues start and stop. That was it Nothing more nothing less.

(emphasis added)

Tradition. (Do I hear the opening theme from Fiddler on the Roof?? ) Yes. Tradition plays a major part in aviation.

Traditionally, pilots hire pilots. Meaning that during your airline interview you will likely sit before a board of pilots. They will decide if you will fit in their workgroup and if you are the type of person they would like having around. Chances are likely that every one of them struggled to make it up each rung of the ladder in their career. I include military pilots. Military pilots have traditiionally gone to the head of the line. However, UPT is stressful, highly competitive, and with few, if any, extra flights or second chances provided. Military pilots pay their dues in other ways, as you have suggested, e.g., by being shot at, etc.

Let these dues-paying people meet an individual who (tried to) buck tradition by buying his/her way to the top - after they spent much of their lives struggling, at least a little. How do you think they'd react to such a person? Some rhetorical food for thought.

No fool should ever expect things to go as advertised. If a person showed up 0hrs, and 300hrs later expect the sea to part just for him then he truly is an idiot.

Well, I dunno about that. Quite a few Mesa Airlines Pilot Development grads who had but 300 hours have had the sea part for them by way of doing well in the program, acting right, getting the guaranteed Mesa Airlines interview, and getting hired by Mesa Airlines. I instructed there ten years ago. I had at least one student whom, I thought, acted like an idiot at times, but he and at least a few of my other MAPD students got hired. Maybe MAPD might be for you.

[W]hat does it normaly cost for twin engine time . . . . but from what i gathered Multi-time Aint cheap . . .

Fair question. No, multi time isn't cheap at all. I would guess that multi time goes for $150+ per hour these days, notwithstanding the very stringent total, multi, and time in type times you have to meet to rent. Having said that, it looks far better if you build your multi time through paid employment. A good way to build multi time is to become a multiengine instructor. It worked for me and it has worked for others. Give it some thought.

 

[de727ups]

Why PFT is bad....

Why PFT is bad has nothing to do with you as an individual....it has to do with the profession. I can see situations where PFT could be good for the individual. A guy has money and doesn't want to instruct. Saw a great example the other day, a guy is ex-military helo with little fixed wing time and the regionals won't bite....needs to build what the regionals want in minimum time.

PFT is bad because it's bad for the profession. PFT says to airline management that they don't need to hire an F/O...some guy will pay to sit in that seat. PFT takes a paying, entry level, job away from someone and gives it to someone who doesn't mind being a revenue source for their employer.

Many guys just starting out in the career have little respect for unions, ALPA, and the profession in general....and that's why PFT doesn't look bad to them. They only see what's good for them at the moment and what will get them ahead faster. Can't say as I really blame them, as I have been there and understand the frustration.

All I can say is that airline management likes nothing more than to make a buck off of, or pay less to, someone who they need to sit in the front of the plane. I don't see any reason for us to help them at it.....

 

[Timebuilder]

Oh, good lord. Aviation is the TEXTBOOK casestudy of economics...

If by your definition of textbook, you mean words on a page incapable of changing in a dynamic fashion, then yes, I agree.

Aviation is far from that, which it the point I was making. The presence of people, who have beliefs about the ethics and moral fabric of our modern system of economic realtionships makes it so. A textbook will simply point out the realtionship of supply and demand. I takes nothing into account of how people, in this case pilots, react to how a demand for pilots is filled. In a static system, this oversupply of pilots would dictate that every pilot position would be PFT, and wages would only be high enough to keep the stack of resumes that arrive every day at a level equal to the number of pilots who quit in disgust. You could have no pilot unions, because this moderating force between the interests of management and the interests of workers would upset your static model.

Every potential pilot candidate is, in effect, starting their own business. Technically, CFIing is PFT. If, perhaps, you don't want to instruct, as many do not, you'd have to pay for a certificate(s) that you'd otherwise NOT NEED.

First, not every CFI is starting his own business, nor is every pilot candidate. You don't need to pay for certificates that you don't need. If your father owns an airplane, and you want to fly it, you don't need a flight instructor certificate to do so. You WILL need a certain amount of experience, and a pilot who has the requisite experience will have to teach you and watch over you until you are insurable. Chances are, that person had some experience as an instructor. Isn't that a bit of irony?

The reason that being a CFI is not the same as PFT is that you are not purchasing a job at a particualr place when you train to be a CFI. You can instruct anywhere the FAA has jurisdiction. If you could ONLY instruct at the school where you trained, the the FAA would be a co-conspirator in a PFT scheme. This is not the case.

Now, if you can gain the necessary experience through paid work outside of instruction, and you can pass muster in an interview, then good for you. If, however, you pay to occupy the seat that should be manned by a qualified pilot, that is PFT and is a different matter alltogether.

I hope that helps you understand what PFT actually is, rather than what you might like to define it to be.

 

[Dean]

Bobby..please lay off the Intro to Lit. lol
I feel like Im sitting in Lit class again. lol

But on with the story.

Let these dues-paying people meet an individual who (tried to) buck tradition by buying his/her way to the top - after they spent much of their lives struggling, at least a little. How do you think they'd react to such a person?

So Im assuming , and yes I know what they say about assuming, you think your struggling is the only one of it kind. Well then, lets have a class in Reality Check 101. Life Is Hard. Not only for you but for probably the rest of us too.

I dont know what they would say but I would bring there attention to my record thus far as being a hard working and dedicated person who thus far has made the Dean's list every full-time semester at school, but did this at the same time as being a father to 2 little boys, a husband to a supporting wife, a full-time bus driver, working part-time at an Ambulance service to help pay for my PPL, and still find time to Volunteer in my community.

So if you are looking for someone to fill sorry for the people who instruct and are struggling, you will not get it from me. Life is tough and we all struggle. Join the crowd. And if a person's egotistical attitude at an interview is any representation of the group that i would be flying with, Well...I probably wouldnt enjoy flying with a hot shot any how.

I have worked for everything i have. Daddy or this Gov. hasnt given me anything. I pay my dues a little more everyday

sorry about the soap box. Just a reminder that CFIs arent the only ones who struggled.


I do however appreciate all the replys thus far.
thank you


and...lol..I suspect i will catch it on the Hotshot remark. lol.
its not intended for all CFI, just the one who thinks the world owes them something.