PFT-Let it fly!

[Timebuilder]

Now someone who pays GS 20K for no job, moves into the category of "WTF why did he do that?" range, but it is not up to the indivdiuals on this board to judge anyone by PFT.

Everything we do as humans leaves us open to the scrutiny, and yes, the judgement of others. This is a part of human nature.

Further, other people and airlines who are engaging in an act which people see as being negative does not offer any support for other carriers or pilots doing the same thing. In other words, just becuse others have done it does not make it right, or even make it a good thing. In fact, the many carriers that have STOPPED the practice of PFT reminds me of Bobby's latin quote from law, the thing speaks for itself.

Is PFT bad? Well, I hold this truth to be self evident.

 

[pilotyip]

PFT does not work in a hot job market

I could not agree more, it went away pretty much by itself. Companies found PFT limited there choices on pilot candidates and wanted to increase their pool, this was at time the airlines were all making money and did not need the PFT off-set, but to judge someone who had to make a chioce 7-10 years ago in a different job market, is not anyone's call, they were most likely not there and did not face that desision in a market that accepted PFT.

 

[Timebuilder]

they were most likely not there and did not face that desision in a market that accepted PFT.

True.

My point is to dissuade as many as possible from now on and eliminate PFT as an option used by shady operators.

 

[Dean]

After reading this sentence I must second Timebuilder's comment, above, about your critical thinking abilities. Volunteerism has nothing to do with cheating or paying-for-training. Your injection of volunteerism into this discussion is a red herring.

Bobby, after reading this I would question your Critical thinking abilities. The reason for my refering to the military was in reference to who should be the ones to judge. It was all about the tradition thing and not having paid dues to be there. Where does having paid ones dues start and stop. That was it Nothing more nothing less.

Also let me say that, Im not limiting myself to just this PFT/250 hrs from GA. I may be mistaken but you can instruct some there too. No fool should ever expect things to go as advertised. If a person showed up 0hrs, and 300hrs later expect the sea to part just for him then he truly is an idiot. A person must look at the risk and return in every decision he makes. There is no way i would dump 50k out and not leave myself some cushion. If things didnt go as hoped for, then you could go instruct somewhere, and then not only would you still gain hours but you would also have some very nice expeirence and turbo time to go along with it.

And one more question. Im still new to the whole flight training world, but what does it normaly cost for twin engine time. My CFI also flys commercailly by hisself and has several small twins that he flys. Im not sure how he affords all the plains but I think other people own them and they lease out and he is contracted to fly, but anyways, He flys mostly alone. No right seat. If he cut say the hr price in half and let me fly with him, would that be wrong too. It Aint taking no-ones job. But from what i gathered Multi-time Aint cheap, so if he would do I that I would think that would be a good deal. Am I wrong.

 

[Timebuilder]

If you friend is flying as a charter single pilot on someone's air carrier certificate, then you would have many legal hurdles to jump before you would be allowed to touch the controls on those flights. If you friend is flying under part 91, then you might be able to fly with him, particularly if the owner approves of him giving you instruction in the aircraft. You need to become well schooled in the various legal and regulatory requirements for flying and logging time. There are a great many threads here for you to study, so have at it.

Where does having paid ones dues start and stop. That was it Nothing more nothing less.

Good question. As pilots, we are a segment of society. The answer lies in what the proponderance of belief is about what is correct and what is not correct in aviation, based on common values and belief systems such as morals, ethics, and accumulated wisdom.

Once again, you have to address your concerns about the military pilot to those who sit on the hiring boards at airlines, and those who make policy at insurance companies. Often, insurance requirements are far more restrictive than any FAA rule or aviation tradition.

 

[EngineOut]

Well, Dean, if professional aviation was simply a static model of economics, then PFT would fit right in, in terms of "opportunity cost".

Oh, good lord. Aviation is the TEXTBOOK casestudy of economics...I may be banned from posting here after this:

DEAN is correct, particularly after you consider age (or barrier to entry in this case). Every potential pilot candidate is, in effect, starting their own business. Technically, CFIing is PFT. If, perhaps, you don't want to instruct, as many do not, you'd have to pay for a certificate(s) that you'd otherwise NOT NEED.

PFT is an issue only because supply is GREATER than demand. Reverse the scenario (prior to 2000) and then you have pilots making crazy money because demand was GREATER than supply (see UAL).

There is no more a "static" or "fits-the-economic-rules" industry remaining in the US as aviation. Period end.

 

[bobbysamd]

Tradition

Bobby, after reading this I would question your Critical thinking abilities.

Moi?

The reason for my refering to the military was in reference to who should be the ones to judge . . . . .

Read the rest of your question and the answer should be evident . . . .

It was all about the tradition thing and not having paid dues to be there. Where does having paid ones dues start and stop. That was it Nothing more nothing less.

(emphasis added)

Tradition. (Do I hear the opening theme from Fiddler on the Roof?? ) Yes. Tradition plays a major part in aviation.

Traditionally, pilots hire pilots. Meaning that during your airline interview you will likely sit before a board of pilots. They will decide if you will fit in their workgroup and if you are the type of person they would like having around. Chances are likely that every one of them struggled to make it up each rung of the ladder in their career. I include military pilots. Military pilots have traditiionally gone to the head of the line. However, UPT is stressful, highly competitive, and with few, if any, extra flights or second chances provided. Military pilots pay their dues in other ways, as you have suggested, e.g., by being shot at, etc.

Let these dues-paying people meet an individual who (tried to) buck tradition by buying his/her way to the top - after they spent much of their lives struggling, at least a little. How do you think they'd react to such a person? Some rhetorical food for thought.

No fool should ever expect things to go as advertised. If a person showed up 0hrs, and 300hrs later expect the sea to part just for him then he truly is an idiot.

Well, I dunno about that. Quite a few Mesa Airlines Pilot Development grads who had but 300 hours have had the sea part for them by way of doing well in the program, acting right, getting the guaranteed Mesa Airlines interview, and getting hired by Mesa Airlines. I instructed there ten years ago. I had at least one student whom, I thought, acted like an idiot at times, but he and at least a few of my other MAPD students got hired. Maybe MAPD might be for you.

[W]hat does it normaly cost for twin engine time . . . . but from what i gathered Multi-time Aint cheap . . .

Fair question. No, multi time isn't cheap at all. I would guess that multi time goes for $150+ per hour these days, notwithstanding the very stringent total, multi, and time in type times you have to meet to rent. Having said that, it looks far better if you build your multi time through paid employment. A good way to build multi time is to become a multiengine instructor. It worked for me and it has worked for others. Give it some thought.

 

[de727ups]

Why PFT is bad....

Why PFT is bad has nothing to do with you as an individual....it has to do with the profession. I can see situations where PFT could be good for the individual. A guy has money and doesn't want to instruct. Saw a great example the other day, a guy is ex-military helo with little fixed wing time and the regionals won't bite....needs to build what the regionals want in minimum time.

PFT is bad because it's bad for the profession. PFT says to airline management that they don't need to hire an F/O...some guy will pay to sit in that seat. PFT takes a paying, entry level, job away from someone and gives it to someone who doesn't mind being a revenue source for their employer.

Many guys just starting out in the career have little respect for unions, ALPA, and the profession in general....and that's why PFT doesn't look bad to them. They only see what's good for them at the moment and what will get them ahead faster. Can't say as I really blame them, as I have been there and understand the frustration.

All I can say is that airline management likes nothing more than to make a buck off of, or pay less to, someone who they need to sit in the front of the plane. I don't see any reason for us to help them at it.....

 

[Timebuilder]

Oh, good lord. Aviation is the TEXTBOOK casestudy of economics...

If by your definition of textbook, you mean words on a page incapable of changing in a dynamic fashion, then yes, I agree.

Aviation is far from that, which it the point I was making. The presence of people, who have beliefs about the ethics and moral fabric of our modern system of economic realtionships makes it so. A textbook will simply point out the realtionship of supply and demand. I takes nothing into account of how people, in this case pilots, react to how a demand for pilots is filled. In a static system, this oversupply of pilots would dictate that every pilot position would be PFT, and wages would only be high enough to keep the stack of resumes that arrive every day at a level equal to the number of pilots who quit in disgust. You could have no pilot unions, because this moderating force between the interests of management and the interests of workers would upset your static model.

Every potential pilot candidate is, in effect, starting their own business. Technically, CFIing is PFT. If, perhaps, you don't want to instruct, as many do not, you'd have to pay for a certificate(s) that you'd otherwise NOT NEED.

First, not every CFI is starting his own business, nor is every pilot candidate. You don't need to pay for certificates that you don't need. If your father owns an airplane, and you want to fly it, you don't need a flight instructor certificate to do so. You WILL need a certain amount of experience, and a pilot who has the requisite experience will have to teach you and watch over you until you are insurable. Chances are, that person had some experience as an instructor. Isn't that a bit of irony?

The reason that being a CFI is not the same as PFT is that you are not purchasing a job at a particualr place when you train to be a CFI. You can instruct anywhere the FAA has jurisdiction. If you could ONLY instruct at the school where you trained, the the FAA would be a co-conspirator in a PFT scheme. This is not the case.

Now, if you can gain the necessary experience through paid work outside of instruction, and you can pass muster in an interview, then good for you. If, however, you pay to occupy the seat that should be manned by a qualified pilot, that is PFT and is a different matter alltogether.

I hope that helps you understand what PFT actually is, rather than what you might like to define it to be.

 

[Dean]

Bobby..please lay off the Intro to Lit. lol
I feel like Im sitting in Lit class again. lol

But on with the story.

Let these dues-paying people meet an individual who (tried to) buck tradition by buying his/her way to the top - after they spent much of their lives struggling, at least a little. How do you think they'd react to such a person?

So Im assuming , and yes I know what they say about assuming, you think your struggling is the only one of it kind. Well then, lets have a class in Reality Check 101. Life Is Hard. Not only for you but for probably the rest of us too.

I dont know what they would say but I would bring there attention to my record thus far as being a hard working and dedicated person who thus far has made the Dean's list every full-time semester at school, but did this at the same time as being a father to 2 little boys, a husband to a supporting wife, a full-time bus driver, working part-time at an Ambulance service to help pay for my PPL, and still find time to Volunteer in my community.

So if you are looking for someone to fill sorry for the people who instruct and are struggling, you will not get it from me. Life is tough and we all struggle. Join the crowd. And if a person's egotistical attitude at an interview is any representation of the group that i would be flying with, Well...I probably wouldnt enjoy flying with a hot shot any how.

I have worked for everything i have. Daddy or this Gov. hasnt given me anything. I pay my dues a little more everyday

sorry about the soap box. Just a reminder that CFIs arent the only ones who struggled.


I do however appreciate all the replys thus far.
thank you


and...lol..I suspect i will catch it on the Hotshot remark. lol.
its not intended for all CFI, just the one who thinks the world owes them something.

 

[B190Captain]

Now, if you can gain the necessary experience through paid work outside of instruction, and you can pass muster in an interview, then good for you. If, however, you pay to occupy the seat that should be manned by a qualified pilot, that is PFT and is a different matter alltogether.

Manned by a qualified pilot? you mean experienced right?

 

[46Driver]

What de727ups said was not uncommon. We had quite a few helo pilots out of this base (and others) PFT. Helo pilots would report to base ops and if they were lucky enough to get assigned to T-34C's, yippee, they were all set. If the Col said we are short helo instructors, you could hear the groan of the pilot who just realizes he has to now pony up $10k + to compete.

 

[stillaboo]

Re: Tradition

Im confused because I read alot about how that aviators up in the ranks dont give darn about where you learned to fly as long as you do what you were hired on to do.

Let me un-confuse you, then. PFT guys were hired on to line the pockets of their company and fill a seat. You walked right into that one, Dean. Sorry )

When you PFT, you may get hours in your log that are more impressive, but the reason these hours are impressive is that you are assuming these hours logged imply the level of knowledge, skill, and responsibility normally required to log those hours. When you pay to sit in the seat, the normal pre-requisites of knowledge, skill, and responsibility aren't there anymore. That is how the hours that a PFT pilot logs aren't comparable to those of a non-PFT position, and why many would hire a CFI before a PFT. The PFT guy may be an excellent pilot who would fit into the company 'like a glove', but the mere payment for hours leaves the interviewer no objective way of evaluating the PFT applicant's ability (I'll leave the character debate for another time)

Dean, you generally sound as if you're level headed when you ask questions, and then, when accepted industry standards are brought up to answer your questions, you call their views as 'out-of-touch' or 'not representative of the majority'. Since you are not a professional pilot, than how do you profess to know what is 'in-touch' or what the majority of us might think about an issue you don't even fully understand? (though I admire you for trying to)

When you interview, pilots are hiring you based on your ability to be a good captain, a leader and your 'fit' within the company (for instance, it was recently pointed out that JetBlue pilots help clean their aircraft. If you think cleaning is beneath a pilot, then you might not be a good fit at 'Blue). In short, could I, the interviewer, sit in a cockpit with you for a month and not go crazy. And if I did, and subsequently passed out, could you then take command of the aircraft, the passengers, the crew, and the situation and land the plane safely (ideally without the passengers even noticing that command of the aircraft had changed). When you PFT, your position in the right seat and your hours do not demonstrate anything interviewers can draw upon to objectively determine whether they should hire you. At best, the experience is seen as merely experience (and 250 hours of any experience from a Cub to Concorde isn't going to get you anywhere these days!). At worst, it's a 1-way ticket to a rejection letter.

-Boo!

Maybe MAPD might be for you.

No you di' ent', Bobby! PFT'ing guys would fit in at Freedom, though. A decision that would possibly advance my career at the expense of my fellow pilots? Its PFT, its Freedom, its Republic, its . . . not a wise career move.

 

[Timebuilder]

Manned by a qualified pilot? you mean experienced right?

I talking about the standards that most cariers have in place for a new hire in a twin tuboprop. A certain amount of TT, multi, instrument, etc. If you had been hired and been paid as a required crewmwmber in a King Air or similar, all the better. This doesn't mean you were paid out of the money you had given to the employer.

This "qualified" doesn't mean PFT experience, which almost any young pilot who can write a check can get. Qualified means you were able to pass muster without greasing the palm of a shady operator, and were hired because of your record of success and your skills.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pity

So if you are looking for someone to fill sorry for the people who instruct and are struggling, you will not get it from me. Life is tough and we all struggle . . . . I have worked for everything i have. Daddy or this Gov. hasnt given me anything. I pay my dues a little more everyday . . .

"You got to pay your dues if you want to sing the blues . . . And, you know, it don't come easy . . . . ." Ringo Starr, circa 1970.

So, now, you're injecting pity into this discussion? Who said anything about feeling sorry for any one? Another red herring. Try respect.

I have a friend of ten years who's approximately my age. Our birthdays are within days of each other. Good pilot and instructor. Good guy. We worked at the same (lousy) company, which was rife with politics. We worked in a foreign airline contract program. The inmates, i.e. the students, were running the asylum. The bosses, who were totally spineless, catered to their whims, and also to the dollar, meaning at times we felt pressure to fly in inappropriate conditions (These bosses were ex-AF types who knew nothing about small airplanes). We were both bounced eventually. I, reluctantly, opted out of aviation because I saw no real future for me at my age. My friend hung in. He has faltered along the way, but is still flying airplanes for pay. He sure has my respect.

Everyone has choices. You can choose to P-F-T, or choose not to. I submit that circumventing the traditional process referenced above has its potential consquences, i.e. being blackballed at the most important interview of your life. Captain Faust made his choice. You have yours to make as well.

Somehow, Dean, I believe that many of your comments are borne of inexperience in the aviation business. You have admitted as much. Once you've been in it for a while you'll see what some of us are talking about.