PFT-Let it fly!

[Timebuilder]

I agree.

I think Dean is probably a hardworking young dad who just needs some more guidance and exposure to the ways of aviation. Maybe some more life experience, too.

 

[Dean]

I in no way said that i didnt have respect for a pilot that came up this way, and this is no RED HERRING. You Pointed out "What would a pilot think that had to struggle..". the fact that the word "struggle" was mention leads one to think that you were looking for pity. NEVER, NEVER NEVER did I say i disrespect CFI. I for one think I have been very fortunate to have a very good and understanding CFI. I have the upmost respect for this man.

To confess, up to date I have only met one other CFI, and that was on one of my x-country hops. And when I met the Cat he was laid back on the couch, smaken on some big piece of something, and holding his big aviator sunglasses like he was tom cruise in Top Gun. It didnt take 5sec to figure out this guy was full of hisself. in this case, he did not earn any respect from me. In every career field, their going to be people, who no matter what road they took, that deserves respect. I believe evey one deserves respect until they prove other wise.

So I didnt Inject nothing, just responding to what you said.

And I will admit that I dont have much expeirence with aviation other than my training for PPL. But I have been trying to look at PFT in an objective view and without all of the emotions that go with it. My questions were just what is PFT, Is it safe, does it work, why do some oppose it so much, and does the opposition's disagreement have merit?

These are things I was curious about? In no way to all the CFIs in here, Im I trying to be a hard A$$, and I do respect the route that you have taken.

Thanks

 

[B190Captain]

Many guys just starting out in the career have little respect for unions, ALPA, and the profession in general....and that's why PFT doesn't look bad to them. They only see what's good for them at the moment and what will get them ahead faster. Can't say as I really blame them, as I have been there and understand the frustration.

Little respect for unions? I fail to understand your statement since a significant percentage of these FO's that come through the program are sons and daughters of Delta, Continental, American, United senior captains. I am sure that parental guidance, especially from parents that have been in the industry 20-30 years, would harm their kid's career by sending them to a school that sells experience.

It comes down to this, NO ONE CARES HOW YOU GOT YOUR EXPERIENCE as long as your numbers are competitive and you never crossed a picket line to get it. In fact, I have flown with alot of these FO's and quite a few of them are CFI, II's and MEI's and still come through the FO deal. So please, disprespect for unions has nothing to do with this.

This hostility towards PFT should be directed to management of companies that hire pilots that have got experience however they got it and put them in the right seat of a CRJ or ERJ and pay them $19.00/hr. to do it. Now that is disrespectful to pilots and Unions!!

Fly Safe!

 

[Timebuilder]

This hostility towards PFT should be directed to management of companies that hire pilots that have got experience however they got it and put them in the right seat of a CRJ or ERJ and pay them $19.00/hr. to do it. Now that is disrespectful to pilots and Unions!!

Would that include the management of the companies you mentioned above, where the parents of those FO's work ?

 

[bigD]

This hostility towards PFT should be directed to management of companies that hire pilots that have got experience however they got it and put them in the right seat of a CRJ or ERJ and pay them $19.00/hr. to do it.

But there shouldn't be any hostility towards airlines that hire pilots to the right seat of a 1900, and expect the PILOTS to pay $100/hr?

 

[B190Captain]

Would that include the management of the companies you mentioned above, where the parents of those FO's work ?

Ahh no. UAL, AAL, DAL and CAL don't agree to contracts that pay FO's 19.00/hr to fly CRJ's and ERJ's. I am referring to most Regional airlines.

As for caring what kind of experience prospective employees have whether it be PFT or not? NO, the above do not care.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ahh no. UAL, AAL, DAL and CAL don't agree to contracts that pay FO's 19.00/hr to fly CRJ's and ERJ's.

Sure they do. Look at the companies they contract to do their feeder work. They are making sure that pilot wages are kept low. The unions of the parent companies are not only allowing it, they are counting on it.

The human parents that you mention, few that they are, are helping to keep wages low, too, in the hopes that their child will be able to hold a line in the shrinking world of the "major" airline, where a contract will hopefully keep them in that upper five percent of pilots. By using PFT, they are guaranteeing that other pilots who are competing with their sons and daughters will have fewer paying jobs available because the shady operators see that these pilots and their parents are willing to sacrifice the viability of the profession by paying for a job.

 

[B190Captain]

Sure they do. Look at the companies they contract to do their feeder work. They are making sure that pilot wages are kept low. The unions of the parent companies are not only allowing it, they are counting on it.

The human parents that you mention, few that they are, are helping to keep wages low, too, in the hopes that their child will be able to hold a line in the shrinking world of the "major" airline, where a contract will hopefully keep them in that upper five percent of pilots. By using PFT, they are guaranteeing that other pilots who are competing with their sons and daughters will have fewer paying jobs available because the shady operators see that these pilots and their parents are willing to sacrifice the viability of the profession by paying for a job.

They are NOT paying for a job. They pay for the experience.

As for your previous point, I am sure there is influence by the parent company to keep wages low but the pilot group has to agree to it if represented by a union.

 

[bigD]

They are NOT paying for a job. They pay for the experience.

Boy, do I feel like an @ss. All these years I've been taking advantage of the company I work for. They've been paying me to write games for them, when in fact I should have been paying THEM for getting the experience of writing the code!

I better go talk to my manager about this. The guilt is gonna kill me...

 

[Timebuilder]

They are NOT paying for a job. They pay for the experience.

Let me clarify this for you. In PFT, there are paying customers who are unaware that the crew includes a person who paid for the position which they occupy. If the pilot was merely paying for experience, then there would be no PFT. Instead, several pilots would be going up in an airplane and training. Nothing wrong with training. When you put people or cargo into the plane, and charge for the service, then it is a JOB, and the paying pilot is PFT.

Clearly, in PFT these "paying pilots" are displacing someone from a PAID pilot position.

That's the difference.

As for your previous point, I am sure there is influence by the parent company to keep wages low but the pilot group has to agree to it if represented by a union.

This can only happen because these smaller pilot groups were abandoned in the contracts that the parent company unions had signed. Now, the parent unions are seeing their working membership shrink while these low cost operations are growing.

There is no justification for PFT. It reduces paying jobs, and creates the impression that pilots see themselves as worthless.

Then, they are paid accordingly.

 

[bobbysamd]

Square pegs for square holes

As for caring what kind of experience prospective employees have whether it be PFT or not?

The H.R. coneheads could care less. All these idiots do is review resumes and ensure they have enough precisely square pegs to fill the square holes for the upcoming round of interviews. Talk about not thinking outside the box . . . but that's a discussion for another time.

I would submit that your workgroup will care a heap. I.e., your fellow pilots. They will care that you worked your way up, not paid your way up. Once again, tradition. Not cutting in front of people in line. Being there because you should be there, and not being some 300-hour United wonder.

I like Big D's comment. My last employer always regarded the experience we gained in her law office as a gift. Man, would she go to town if there was such a thing as P-F-T for paralegals!

 

[46Driver]

"I will submit that your workgroup will care a heap." Actually, if the pilots come from the military, chances are they are not going to care - most of them consider PFT as just a function of capitalistic supply and demand. As for "cutting in a line", minorites and females with less qualifications get hired ahead of others - but that's life - deal with it. And judging by all of the hundreds of people on this website and only the same half dozen or so who get their panties in a wad, I would venture the real world would be the same.

 

[Timebuilder]

Maybe we should cut funding for veterans, the GI Bill, and military housing allowance. After all, that's just what many people in Washington would like. They would rather protect some endangered species, right?

Should we just say " but that's life - deal with it. "?

No, I don't think so. Just because some folks think it's okay doesn't make it okay.

"Actually, if the pilots come from the military, chances are they are not going to care - most of them consider PFT as just a function of capitalistic supply and demand."

I refuse to believe that most military pilots could be so short sighted and self centered as you suggest. At least, none that I would care to know.


It is not capitalism, it is exploitation. Maybe you would like to belive that this is in some strange way the equivalent of racial and gender preferences, but it is not. The pilots I know from the military think that PFT shows a lack of honor.

Perhaps that quality is now in short supply...

 

[bobbysamd]

Affirmative action - thread creep

As for "cutting in a line", minorites and females with less qualifications get hired ahead of others - but that's life - deal with it.

Okay. Anyone for a discussion on yesterday's Supreme Court decision upholding part of the University of Michigan's affirmative action program?

Here's a link to a recent story and reaction.

 

[Timebuilder]

I found it interesting that the court found that among equally qualifed law school applicants, race could be considered as a factor, but the point system used by the undergraduate program was struck down.

What will the replacement undergrad system be?