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Everybody has a right to think whatever they want. It is a free country, and a free speech website (that is the understatement of the century) People can hate PFT, love PFT, or like me, just not give a sh*t. We as pilots have enough to deal with..... like management
If you hate PFT, fine, if you have friends who are considering it, advise them against it. But why trash someone, or set a career goal to attempt to destroy someones career/lives (in an interview), just because they did something that you disagree with (PFT'd). Because PFT, as of today, has not yet changed the industry in any way for the worse, (it has not made it better either) It has not hurt, or affected you. You are acting like those f#cking terrorists who hate our life style so much, they try to hurt us. You, in a much more milder way are doing the same, you are trying to hurt someone because you disagree with them, and what they have done with THEIR life/money.
I disagree with my soon to be wife over some issues, like cauliflower, she makes me eat it, I disagree/hate it, I am not going to set out to ruin her life because of it.....
I'm done with this PFT crap, next subject...
If you hate PFT, fine, if you have friends who are considering it, advise them against it. But why trash someone, or set a career goal to attempt to destroy someones career/lives (in an interview), just because they did something that you disagree with (PFT'd). Because PFT, as of today, has not yet changed the industry in any way for the worse, (it has not made it better either) It has not hurt, or affected you. You are acting like those f#cking terrorists who hate our life style so much, they try to hurt us. You, in a much more milder way are doing the same, you are trying to hurt someone because you disagree with them, and what they have done with THEIR life/money.
I disagree with my soon to be wife over some issues, like cauliflower, she makes me eat it, I disagree/hate it, I am not going to set out to ruin her life because of it.....
I'm done with this PFT crap, next subject...
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pilotyip
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USA Jet PFT?
I don't know what 727 is thinking, but PFT at USA Jet would be stupid. It would limit the pool we choose from, which would mean a decrease in quaility of the incoming pilot applicant. We pay just about the highest entry level wage for a DA-20 F/O (33K/yr) in the industry to allow us to be selective.
I don't know what 727 is thinking, but PFT at USA Jet would be stupid. It would limit the pool we choose from, which would mean a decrease in quaility of the incoming pilot applicant. We pay just about the highest entry level wage for a DA-20 F/O (33K/yr) in the industry to allow us to be selective.
bobbysamd
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P-F-T defined
You cannot argue that buying the type is P-F-T. After hire the company will still put new-hires through its initial training. You know that better than I, Yip, as a manager of your company.
Now, where and how was the Jetstream pilot required to pay for the 121 letter? At the company which hired him? If so, there you go. That is P-F-T in every way.
Once more, P-F-T is an employment-employer-employee issue. If the employer requires the employee to pay for his training as a condition of employment, then a P-F-T situation exists. If employers require applicants to have type ratings along with minimum hours and other experience before they can be considered for employment, then it is not P-F-T.pilotyip said:
You cannot argue that buying the type is P-F-T. After hire the company will still put new-hires through its initial training. You know that better than I, Yip, as a manager of your company.
Now, where and how was the Jetstream pilot required to pay for the 121 letter? At the company which hired him? If so, there you go. That is P-F-T in every way.
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bobbysamd
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European P-F-T?
Many foreign airlines seek individuals who have never been inside an airplane but have potential. They then hire them and train them. All expenses paid for these airline employees by their airlines for them to become line pilots, including room and board, flight training and per diem.
It is true that these folks hit the line at 300-500 hours. But these are quality people who have not had a moment wasted in their training and are extremely well prepared to do their jobs. And, for the most part, they are not carried along. Some might get a couple of extra training periods here and there to help them over rough spots, but they mostly have to achieve or they are gone. Compare it to military flight training. Not too many of us have qualms about putting military-trained pilots into multi-million dollar equipment at 300-500 hours, if that.
I cannot say if P-F-T as we know it could exist abroad, but the above explanation is why you see relatively low-timers in foreign airline cockpits, and is certainly not American-style P-F-T.
Having instructed Alitalia students at FSI, being around other foreign airline students at the same school, being associated briefly with the JAL school in Napa, California, visiting at the ANA school in Bakersfield, having a friend work there for a few years, having been interviewed at the Lufthansa school in Phoenix and having friends who worked there, you have it all wrong. It is a situation of the airlines P-F-Ting.blade230 said:
Many foreign airlines seek individuals who have never been inside an airplane but have potential. They then hire them and train them. All expenses paid for these airline employees by their airlines for them to become line pilots, including room and board, flight training and per diem.
It is true that these folks hit the line at 300-500 hours. But these are quality people who have not had a moment wasted in their training and are extremely well prepared to do their jobs. And, for the most part, they are not carried along. Some might get a couple of extra training periods here and there to help them over rough spots, but they mostly have to achieve or they are gone. Compare it to military flight training. Not too many of us have qualms about putting military-trained pilots into multi-million dollar equipment at 300-500 hours, if that.
I cannot say if P-F-T as we know it could exist abroad, but the above explanation is why you see relatively low-timers in foreign airline cockpits, and is certainly not American-style P-F-T.
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I am really sick of this thread, but Bobby you are incorrect, and I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.
I was NOT talking about airline cadet programs. I know all about them. I have family members at both Cathay, and JAL (mainline, not Jalways contract). And one of them started as a cadet pilot, he is now a Captain with a flawless training record, and thousands (not too far from 10) of hours. I myself, thought about trying that route. In the end, I did not apply, stayed home for a while.. I was not quite considered fluent by the respective airline for their standards. Gotta brush up on the parents language if you know what I mean.
Go to the Eagle jet website, just look at the requirements of some of their programs, JAA ratings required, last time I checked, those were European ratings. better yet, CALL them and ASK if a major portion of their students have been Europeans in the past. Call, or look up a company called ASG jet, that operates out of Amsterdam or somewhere like that, they put foreign PFT pilots into corporate jets right here in the US. They also do JAA-to FAA convertions for their Euro pilots. They sell 1000 hour blocks or some large number. Gulfstream used to cater to many foreign students before 9-11. Another company in Eastern Europe, which also requires JAA ratings, sells time in CRJ's. They can be found on the internet. There is some company here in the US that sells 727 time, also a achool that does JAA training. Read about that in the new issue of "Flying", look for shiny picture of a new Eagle ERJ on the add.
All this info can be found in the Flight Internatioanal magazine, which is a BRITISH Aerospace magazine that I subscribe to. All the many advertisements are in the back in the classified sections
Many of these programs are selling time in big, heavy, some times 3 crew jets, not small quasi single pilot B 1900's.
Once again, like de727ups said, I am not saying that their way should become our way, but it is VERY common practice over there, as is buying type ratings.
I was NOT talking about airline cadet programs. I know all about them. I have family members at both Cathay, and JAL (mainline, not Jalways contract). And one of them started as a cadet pilot, he is now a Captain with a flawless training record, and thousands (not too far from 10) of hours. I myself, thought about trying that route. In the end, I did not apply, stayed home for a while.. I was not quite considered fluent by the respective airline for their standards. Gotta brush up on the parents language if you know what I mean.
Go to the Eagle jet website, just look at the requirements of some of their programs, JAA ratings required, last time I checked, those were European ratings. better yet, CALL them and ASK if a major portion of their students have been Europeans in the past. Call, or look up a company called ASG jet, that operates out of Amsterdam or somewhere like that, they put foreign PFT pilots into corporate jets right here in the US. They also do JAA-to FAA convertions for their Euro pilots. They sell 1000 hour blocks or some large number. Gulfstream used to cater to many foreign students before 9-11. Another company in Eastern Europe, which also requires JAA ratings, sells time in CRJ's. They can be found on the internet. There is some company here in the US that sells 727 time, also a achool that does JAA training. Read about that in the new issue of "Flying", look for shiny picture of a new Eagle ERJ on the add.
All this info can be found in the Flight Internatioanal magazine, which is a BRITISH Aerospace magazine that I subscribe to. All the many advertisements are in the back in the classified sections
Many of these programs are selling time in big, heavy, some times 3 crew jets, not small quasi single pilot B 1900's.
Once again, like de727ups said, I am not saying that their way should become our way, but it is VERY common practice over there, as is buying type ratings.
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bobbysamd
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Valuejet
What if I already have a DC-9 type? Will Valuejet hire me? Or will Valuejet still charge me $10K for P-F-T at Flightsafety? That would be P-F-T.
Since Valuejet required remitting of $10K to be hired, the haves and have-nots were easily separated. A job resulted from the $10K payment. P-F-T is about buying a job. Therefore, relying only on your representations, that would be P-F-T. I'm sure there's more on that story.
There are all kinds of deals like that. Some outfit in Las Vegas advertised for FOs, and required them as a condition of employment to earn their types at its approved vendor. That is P-F-T.pilotyip said:
What if I already have a DC-9 type? Will Valuejet hire me? Or will Valuejet still charge me $10K for P-F-T at Flightsafety? That would be P-F-T.
Since Valuejet required remitting of $10K to be hired, the haves and have-nots were easily separated. A job resulted from the $10K payment. P-F-T is about buying a job. Therefore, relying only on your representations, that would be P-F-T. I'm sure there's more on that story.
Blade230
"Gulfstream would not exist as an "airline" if it was not for their FO program. It would still be a sigle pilot 135 operation in 402's or whatever they flew back in the day."
So, what you are saying is that the Gulfstream timebuilders provide such a revenue enhancement for the operation that Gulfstream can afford to operate Beech 1900's under part 121 instead of 402's under 135? I find that hard to believe.
"Gulfstream would not exist as an "airline" if it was not for their FO program. It would still be a sigle pilot 135 operation in 402's or whatever they flew back in the day."
So, what you are saying is that the Gulfstream timebuilders provide such a revenue enhancement for the operation that Gulfstream can afford to operate Beech 1900's under part 121 instead of 402's under 135? I find that hard to believe.
bobbysamd
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License conversions
Well, blade, this is what you wrote earlier:
Your comparision of license conversion training to P-F-T is faulty. Put the shoe on the other foot. Foreign nationals with licenses from their countries come here. The FAA usually will issue them a Private based on their licenses. They have to be trained for their FAA checkrides for their advanced U.S. ratings. There's nothing wrong with that.
P-F-T is an employment issue. If an employer requires you to pay it, or, for that matter, its designated vendor, for your company training as a condition of your employment with said employer, that is P-F-T.
Finally, if you are sick of the thread, why do you keep responding?
Well, blade, this is what you wrote earlier:
Any reasonable person would take your statement to mean that European airlines are P-F-T, which is why I responded the way I did. I have no reason to believe that there would not be P-F-T or time-selling schemes outside the U.S.
Your comparision of license conversion training to P-F-T is faulty. Put the shoe on the other foot. Foreign nationals with licenses from their countries come here. The FAA usually will issue them a Private based on their licenses. They have to be trained for their FAA checkrides for their advanced U.S. ratings. There's nothing wrong with that.
P-F-T is an employment issue. If an employer requires you to pay it, or, for that matter, its designated vendor, for your company training as a condition of your employment with said employer, that is P-F-T.
Finally, if you are sick of the thread, why do you keep responding?
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The_Russian
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1. Bobby cant say anything because its not even his industry! He is not and never will be an airline pilot.
2. 350 and 727 are lonely angry people who have nothing better to do (along with their friend Bobby) but talk trash about things they have no first hand experience with.
3. Gulfstream delivers some of the best pilots into the regionals that Ive seen in my life. I can say that because I have been to ERAU, Comair, FSI, FIT, and numerous FBO's. The training program is difficult and people do wash out. I have watched 26 classes go through in two years. IT IS REAL.
FACT: None of these people who have spoke badly about this kind of training have ever stepped foot inside of Gulfstream Academy.
4. As an ex-employee and now a student at Gulfstream, I know for a fact that the people there arent "SHADY", nor is the operation itself. The FAA ramp checks and observes the flights on a daily basis. They also monitor the maintenance very closely. There are no hidden fees and the management is upfront. They especially do not guarantee you a job at any airline. Hmmmm. I recall many many years ago sitting at Comair and hearing: "You're Hired". "96% of our graduates get hired". After they ate my account up I left. I never once failed a lesson and it cost me twice as much and took twice as long as they told me it would. Ive never seen The Academy rip off a student.
Just because you post 5 million times on FlightInfo, or you can push the autopilot "ON" in a 727, or you hate yourself so much and you are so bored with your life, OR YOU LIKE BASHING YOUR FELLOW PILOTS FOR NO F***ING REASON!!!...... *breath*.............does not justify your opinion well enough to make it a fact. You are all wrong and you are angry. FOR NO REASON! This kind of training does not hurt the industry. Every time someone on this forum posts a new thread: WHICH SCHOOL SHOULD I GO TO? You are already there with your cup of coffee and calculator trying to figure out another reason why YOU FEW CRY BABYS hate Gulfstream and the other schools like them. Never once have you brought FACT to the debate (or argument) table. It reminds me of First grade....... "teacher....Tommy got in line at the finger paint station because he was faster than me and I didnt get the color red! WHAAA WHAAA"
Tommy must have had accelerated training!
No wonder A&P's hate pilots so much. D@mn you guys can whine, cry, and make up sh*t like nobody's business.
I can say all this because I have first hand experience, from BOTH sides of the fence. The grass is always greener on Bobby's side though, because he knows exactly what he is talking about. Who named you guys the gurus anyway?....................
Remember who made this personal. I expect my spelling and grammatical errors to be corrected by Friday please. I'm not kidding about that either, you will lose 10% of your grade if it is late.
All you brothers who just love flying and have been doing it since Hot Wheels made Die-Cast jets, tell your local a**hole know-it-all forum gurus who wish their moms had not beat them so much to eat one! Yeah the big one. Because these guys DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. NONE OF WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THESE PROGRAMS ARE FACTS. Some are good at spelling though.
And for Flight Info moderators.....oh no I'm not done.......you need to check who is posting on your forums. People that establish themselves as self-proclaimed gurus going around offending other forum members and giving them sh*t about their personal career choices, lives, and employers should not be allowed to post due to the fact that it ruins YOUR reputation. I choose now to walk away from this thread because you have allowed the people who are not objective control these threads, while blocking out those like me who just want to tell upcoming pilots the truth. Oh yes you remember moderating me out before. It was a big stink because I made a good point and Baby Bobby didnt like it so you "erased" me. But thats ok.
Captain Picard: "#1 prepare to be moderated out."
Riker: " But Sir.... these PFT Klingons just wont let go. They have too much pent up rage!"
Warf: " Captain!....I am offended by his PFT Klingon comments......BUT I HAVE HAD NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN MAKE 4283 POSTS ON THE INTERNET FOR THE PAST 2 YEARS AND 4 MONTHS!
Riker: "Loser."
2. 350 and 727 are lonely angry people who have nothing better to do (along with their friend Bobby) but talk trash about things they have no first hand experience with.
3. Gulfstream delivers some of the best pilots into the regionals that Ive seen in my life. I can say that because I have been to ERAU, Comair, FSI, FIT, and numerous FBO's. The training program is difficult and people do wash out. I have watched 26 classes go through in two years. IT IS REAL.
FACT: None of these people who have spoke badly about this kind of training have ever stepped foot inside of Gulfstream Academy.
4. As an ex-employee and now a student at Gulfstream, I know for a fact that the people there arent "SHADY", nor is the operation itself. The FAA ramp checks and observes the flights on a daily basis. They also monitor the maintenance very closely. There are no hidden fees and the management is upfront. They especially do not guarantee you a job at any airline. Hmmmm. I recall many many years ago sitting at Comair and hearing: "You're Hired". "96% of our graduates get hired". After they ate my account up I left. I never once failed a lesson and it cost me twice as much and took twice as long as they told me it would. Ive never seen The Academy rip off a student.
Just because you post 5 million times on FlightInfo, or you can push the autopilot "ON" in a 727, or you hate yourself so much and you are so bored with your life, OR YOU LIKE BASHING YOUR FELLOW PILOTS FOR NO F***ING REASON!!!...... *breath*.............does not justify your opinion well enough to make it a fact. You are all wrong and you are angry. FOR NO REASON! This kind of training does not hurt the industry. Every time someone on this forum posts a new thread: WHICH SCHOOL SHOULD I GO TO? You are already there with your cup of coffee and calculator trying to figure out another reason why YOU FEW CRY BABYS hate Gulfstream and the other schools like them. Never once have you brought FACT to the debate (or argument) table. It reminds me of First grade....... "teacher....Tommy got in line at the finger paint station because he was faster than me and I didnt get the color red! WHAAA WHAAA"
Tommy must have had accelerated training!
No wonder A&P's hate pilots so much. D@mn you guys can whine, cry, and make up sh*t like nobody's business.
I can say all this because I have first hand experience, from BOTH sides of the fence. The grass is always greener on Bobby's side though, because he knows exactly what he is talking about. Who named you guys the gurus anyway?....................
Remember who made this personal. I expect my spelling and grammatical errors to be corrected by Friday please. I'm not kidding about that either, you will lose 10% of your grade if it is late.
All you brothers who just love flying and have been doing it since Hot Wheels made Die-Cast jets, tell your local a**hole know-it-all forum gurus who wish their moms had not beat them so much to eat one! Yeah the big one. Because these guys DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. NONE OF WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT THESE PROGRAMS ARE FACTS. Some are good at spelling though.
And for Flight Info moderators.....oh no I'm not done.......you need to check who is posting on your forums. People that establish themselves as self-proclaimed gurus going around offending other forum members and giving them sh*t about their personal career choices, lives, and employers should not be allowed to post due to the fact that it ruins YOUR reputation. I choose now to walk away from this thread because you have allowed the people who are not objective control these threads, while blocking out those like me who just want to tell upcoming pilots the truth. Oh yes you remember moderating me out before. It was a big stink because I made a good point and Baby Bobby didnt like it so you "erased" me. But thats ok.
Captain Picard: "#1 prepare to be moderated out."
Riker: " But Sir.... these PFT Klingons just wont let go. They have too much pent up rage!"
Warf: " Captain!....I am offended by his PFT Klingon comments......BUT I HAVE HAD NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN MAKE 4283 POSTS ON THE INTERNET FOR THE PAST 2 YEARS AND 4 MONTHS!
Riker: "Loser."
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bobbysamd
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Waaa waa waa
At least when I criticize Gulfstream, I document from its website.
By the way, Russian, your posts from last week are still up. Therefore, you cannot say you have been "moderated" out.
As with anyone, right or wrong, rational or irrational, personal attack or not, I appreciate all responses to my comments. Either way, it furthers the dialogue.
No, my friend, you are the one who is angry. Your post tells all . . . .The_Russian said:
This is one of the more fact-laden posts I've seen.
At least when I criticize Gulfstream, I document from its website.
Did Tommy cut in line ahead of you, Russian? If he got in line ahead of you faster when teacher told you kids to get in line, that would be different. Was there already a line and did Tommy cut in front of the others? My first-grade teacher would have made Tommy go to the back of the line. So much for that analogy.
I never said that - you did - and I thank you for the compliment. As for being a guru, just call me Mahareshi Mahesh Yogi.
By the tone and tenor of your comments, especially at the outset of them, it was you, sir.
Reread comment above about making things personal. Also see this gem from a few months ago:
You know what they say, if you can't attack the poster's argument, attack the poster.
By the way, Russian, your posts from last week are still up. Therefore, you cannot say you have been "moderated" out.
As with anyone, right or wrong, rational or irrational, personal attack or not, I appreciate all responses to my comments. Either way, it furthers the dialogue.
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pilotyip
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More PFT help
Back to 1996, you said if I had gone to work for Valuejet and did not have a DC-9 type when I started even though I had to pay 10K for my training I would not be guilty of PFT (additional market value of type rating rule) and could have beers with my peers. But if I went to work for Exec Jet and already had a CE-550 type rating and paid 10K for my Citation Jet training, I would be guilty of PFT (no additional market value of type rating rule) and would be banned to the GIA end of the bar. It that what you said? PFT can be so confusing. Maybe you need a college degree to fgure it out? Nah! College degree had nothing to do with flying an airplane, it just opens doors.
Back to 1996, you said if I had gone to work for Valuejet and did not have a DC-9 type when I started even though I had to pay 10K for my training I would not be guilty of PFT (additional market value of type rating rule) and could have beers with my peers. But if I went to work for Exec Jet and already had a CE-550 type rating and paid 10K for my Citation Jet training, I would be guilty of PFT (no additional market value of type rating rule) and would be banned to the GIA end of the bar. It that what you said? PFT can be so confusing. Maybe you need a college degree to fgure it out? Nah! College degree had nothing to do with flying an airplane, it just opens doors.
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bobbysamd
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By George, I think he's got it!
Apologies to Julie Andrews and also for the momentary digression.
(Of course, with P-F-T, a checkbook trumps both.)
Apologies to Julie Andrews and also for the momentary digression.
Yes. And . . . .pilotyip said:
On that issue, that's really the point. Of course, a degree has nothing intrinsically to do with flying an airplane. The benefits of an education notwithstanding, when it is clear that pilots with degrees are wanted over those without and you have such a degree, then you have one more advantage going for you besides your ratings and time.
(Of course, with P-F-T, a checkbook trumps both.)
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