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PFT-Let it fly!
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pilotyip
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Non-mangement pilots
Non-management pilots do not do the hiring, if you are a PFT pilot, apply, you may get the job due to your foresight on how to get the experience and hours you needed. You must be able to fly, have a gracious personality, and a demonstrated loyalty that makes you stand out. You will get the job, PFT is not a career killer. But it will probably not get you many beers bought by your peers, if they reflect the single mindedness seen in this thread.
Non-management pilots do not do the hiring, if you are a PFT pilot, apply, you may get the job due to your foresight on how to get the experience and hours you needed. You must be able to fly, have a gracious personality, and a demonstrated loyalty that makes you stand out. You will get the job, PFT is not a career killer. But it will probably not get you many beers bought by your peers, if they reflect the single mindedness seen in this thread.
bobbysamd
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P-F-T
. . . but, at many places, sit on interview boards and are listened to when hiring decisions are made. And, the significant majority of them did not P-F-T, loathe P-F-T, and do not tolerate those who did/do.pilotyip said:
Bearing in mind, of course, that P-F-T is a creation of management. Why should the company have to pay to train its pilots when it can find pilots with means and/or are dough-loaded to pay for their own training?
I would submit that it is. Once your P-F-T background is uncovered, the blackballs will be unleashed.
pilotyip
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Not True
Not true, I will have to check our records, but I know of three PFTer's who got hired. One by Netjets and he is a Captain there, we have had one go to Spirit, we have one who flies DC-9 Capt for us, making good money. Are these jobs not sought after jobs by the pilots on this board? And PFT got them started in their careers.
Not true, I will have to check our records, but I know of three PFTer's who got hired. One by Netjets and he is a Captain there, we have had one go to Spirit, we have one who flies DC-9 Capt for us, making good money. Are these jobs not sought after jobs by the pilots on this board? And PFT got them started in their careers.
bobbysamd
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But what about elsewhere???
At least TABExpressF/O can give you a call after he flies off his P-F-T hitch. Are you looking for B1900-typed pilots with 500 hours total time? He just may be your man.
(Clearly, no disrespect is intended in any way to the hundreds of 1900 captains who obtained their types the old-fashioned way, by earning them, on the company's nickel, and what I would have liked to have done, but refused to pay for.)
I would submit the story is different elsewhere. You don't charge them for their training, do you?pilotyip said:
At least TABExpressF/O can give you a call after he flies off his P-F-T hitch. Are you looking for B1900-typed pilots with 500 hours total time? He just may be your man.
(Clearly, no disrespect is intended in any way to the hundreds of 1900 captains who obtained their types the old-fashioned way, by earning them, on the company's nickel, and what I would have liked to have done, but refused to pay for.)
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Bobby,
I respect that you argue without resorting to trashing, but you are incorrect about saying the MAJORITY of senior captains loath PFT. Many, Many, sons and daughters of SENIOR pilots at majors are the ones attending these FO/PFT programs.
This is Fact.
I am related to 4 pilots who fly for majors, and am close friends with several others, and not one of them could give a flying sh*t where one comes from, as long as they are competent, and are cordial enough to sit next to for a long flight. Not to say they are supportive of PFT either, because they really don't care, either way.
But I will agree with the fact that SOME do infact loath it.
I respect that you argue without resorting to trashing, but you are incorrect about saying the MAJORITY of senior captains loath PFT. Many, Many, sons and daughters of SENIOR pilots at majors are the ones attending these FO/PFT programs.
This is Fact.
I am related to 4 pilots who fly for majors, and am close friends with several others, and not one of them could give a flying sh*t where one comes from, as long as they are competent, and are cordial enough to sit next to for a long flight. Not to say they are supportive of PFT either, because they really don't care, either way.
But I will agree with the fact that SOME do infact loath it.
bobbysamd
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P-F-T loathers
I don't mind if you quote me; please feel free - that's what the "quote" function is for - but at least quote me accurately. I stand by my statement.
I have just now reviewed this entire thread and nowhere could I find where I stated that "the MAJORITY of senior captains loathe P-F-T." Perhaps you misquoted what I really wrote:blade230 said:
Nothing in here that I see (or said) about "senior captains."
I don't mind if you quote me; please feel free - that's what the "quote" function is for - but at least quote me accurately. I stand by my statement.
Because many, many (but not all) SENIOR pilots at the majors live in their own little majors world and know nothing and/or forgot everything about aviation and aviation hiring outside their world. They hear "121 time" and they say great, go for it, pay for it, you need it. They do not consider that the paid-for 121 time might hurt their son or daughter sometime or someplace during an interview board or other hiring situation. Perhaps if they reflected on how the 121 time would be obtained they would give different advice.
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Timebuilder
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That's probably right. The majority of such pilots? I don't think so.
There is no doubt that after many layoffs and airline business failures, some senior pilots become so embittered that they only care about getting their kid into a seat for a seniority number. Maybe the antagonism of labor relations plays a role. Maybe they just become jaded.
Maybe, they were always jerks.
"I am related to 4 pilots who fly for majors, and am close friends with several others, and not one of them could give a flying sh*t where one comes from"
Ask your relatives and close friends if they support pilots paying for their jobs and if they support pilots being a revenue source for their company. Then ask them if they support their major airline asking for a 50K fee to build time as their F/O.
Major airline pilots that support PFT are ignorant of what it really is.
Ask your relatives and close friends if they support pilots paying for their jobs and if they support pilots being a revenue source for their company. Then ask them if they support their major airline asking for a 50K fee to build time as their F/O.
Major airline pilots that support PFT are ignorant of what it really is.
pilotyip
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PFT a fact of life
It is boils down to PFT is a fact of life. It may hurt you at one of the majors, including 727ups's exclusive club, but most employers do not care how you got your time. They look for, Do you meet insurance minimums, can you fly an airplane, do you have a gracious personality, and could I stand being on the road with you for five days, you meet those requirements you have the job? You may have to suffer along for the rest of your career only making 100K per year, but someone has to pay the price for being a PFTer.
It is boils down to PFT is a fact of life. It may hurt you at one of the majors, including 727ups's exclusive club, but most employers do not care how you got your time. They look for, Do you meet insurance minimums, can you fly an airplane, do you have a gracious personality, and could I stand being on the road with you for five days, you meet those requirements you have the job? You may have to suffer along for the rest of your career only making 100K per year, but someone has to pay the price for being a PFTer.
pilotyip
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Definition of PFT for Bobby
Following your posted definition of PFT. Definition of PFT: Is a former Value Jet pilot who paid 10K for his job in 1996 a PFTer, because he got a DC-9 rating? How about the Net Jets pilot who paid 10K for a CE 500 rating in 1996? Or the ACA BEA-41 who paid 10K for an F/O 121 letter? Which of these well qualified pilots is a PFTer by your definition?
Following your posted definition of PFT. Definition of PFT: Is a former Value Jet pilot who paid 10K for his job in 1996 a PFTer, because he got a DC-9 rating? How about the Net Jets pilot who paid 10K for a CE 500 rating in 1996? Or the ACA BEA-41 who paid 10K for an F/O 121 letter? Which of these well qualified pilots is a PFTer by your definition?
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They are all aware of programs like Eaglejet, Alpine Air, Gulfstream, the Mesa PACE program etc. etc. etc. They know exactly what these programs offer. They still DO NOT CARE. Who do you think told me about these programs?
I frankly don't care if anybody on this website chooses to trash them, or me for our opinions. It just makes you sound ignorant for trashing somebody you don't even know. But fact is, THEY ARE pilots at MAJOR airlines with 2 of them currently sitting on interview boards at their respective airlines; one of which is constantly regarded as a HIGHLY desirable place to work, on this website that is.
I hate to inform you of this de727ups, but this is a VERY COMMON practice in Europe. It has also been very common in the US. (early 90's PFT)
I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry, just illustrating a point that not ALL pilots agree on the view points on this thread/website.
Like I said before, this also DOES NOT mean they are PRO PFT, they just won't hold it against an individual pilot who does. And rightly so.
I would personally recommend bush flying...on floats...what a fricken blast. And NO, I did not pay for that......
I frankly don't care if anybody on this website chooses to trash them, or me for our opinions. It just makes you sound ignorant for trashing somebody you don't even know. But fact is, THEY ARE pilots at MAJOR airlines with 2 of them currently sitting on interview boards at their respective airlines; one of which is constantly regarded as a HIGHLY desirable place to work, on this website that is.
I hate to inform you of this de727ups, but this is a VERY COMMON practice in Europe. It has also been very common in the US. (early 90's PFT)
I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry, just illustrating a point that not ALL pilots agree on the view points on this thread/website.
Like I said before, this also DOES NOT mean they are PRO PFT, they just won't hold it against an individual pilot who does. And rightly so.
I would personally recommend bush flying...on floats...what a fricken blast. And NO, I did not pay for that......
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PFT is bad
"I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry"
I'm glad to hear you admit that, because you are right....and it's because it's not good for the industry that I'm so against it.
By the way, I don't consider the Eaglejet and Alpine programs PFT. They are timebuilders. They take away no jobs because you sit in a seat that isn't required to be filled by a paid pilot. You aren't a required crewmember.
Thanks for the concern that I might not understand how it works in Europe. I fly 727's between Cologne and Warsaw on a regular basis. There are things about the way aviation works in Europe that I hope we don't see happen in the US. PFT is one, 300 hour co-pilots in 737's is another. ATC towers and landing fees at rural grass strips is one. $150/hr to rent a 150 is a good one. Just cause they do it in Europe is no reason to hope it happens here.
As far as the references to early 90's PFT and the common practice of guys paying for their training at the commuters. That was the way it was. Many guys had to do it, it was the common practice. I hold no grudge because of that. Now, through collective bargining and the will of professional pilots, regionals don't expect their new hires to pay 20K for their initials. It's because of the unions and collective will of professional pilots that made it so.
Gulfstream, and their PFT program, crosses the line into new territory of taking advantage of pilots. If the practice spreads into larger airlines, then you might have to PFT two or three times to get a decent job. If that's what you want, then go ahead and encourage PFT throughout the industry....why stop at Gulfstream. It sounds like USAjet is ripe to start a PFT program. Yeah...I can see it now....pay your 30K and well let you log Falcon 20 time. 50K and you can do it in a DC9....
"I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry"
I'm glad to hear you admit that, because you are right....and it's because it's not good for the industry that I'm so against it.
By the way, I don't consider the Eaglejet and Alpine programs PFT. They are timebuilders. They take away no jobs because you sit in a seat that isn't required to be filled by a paid pilot. You aren't a required crewmember.
Thanks for the concern that I might not understand how it works in Europe. I fly 727's between Cologne and Warsaw on a regular basis. There are things about the way aviation works in Europe that I hope we don't see happen in the US. PFT is one, 300 hour co-pilots in 737's is another. ATC towers and landing fees at rural grass strips is one. $150/hr to rent a 150 is a good one. Just cause they do it in Europe is no reason to hope it happens here.
As far as the references to early 90's PFT and the common practice of guys paying for their training at the commuters. That was the way it was. Many guys had to do it, it was the common practice. I hold no grudge because of that. Now, through collective bargining and the will of professional pilots, regionals don't expect their new hires to pay 20K for their initials. It's because of the unions and collective will of professional pilots that made it so.
Gulfstream, and their PFT program, crosses the line into new territory of taking advantage of pilots. If the practice spreads into larger airlines, then you might have to PFT two or three times to get a decent job. If that's what you want, then go ahead and encourage PFT throughout the industry....why stop at Gulfstream. It sounds like USAjet is ripe to start a PFT program. Yeah...I can see it now....pay your 30K and well let you log Falcon 20 time. 50K and you can do it in a DC9....
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I agree with you de727ups on the fact that if all bigger carriers required PFT, it would be a problem. (would suck big time) But right now, they don't.
I disagree with you about several points though..
Gulfstream would not exist as an "airline" if it was not for their FO program. It would still be a sigle pilot 135 operation in 402's or whatever they flew back in the day. It would NEVER have required a so called "deserving" FO. Gulfstream is NO different than Eaglejet,and like companies etc etc It has become an "airline" solely because of the "success" of its FO program. I strongly disagree with seperating Gulfstream from any other "buy time" program. Gulfstream, without the FO program would move back to a single pilot 135 operation.
Another point.. "buy time" programs have been around forever, and majors HAVE NOT moved to PFT. So how can you say Gulfstream will cause this huge change in the industry, if it and other programs alike still have NOT YET caused it today? PFT IS NOT a new concept. It has not changed the way majors run their hiring departments. If it does, then you have an argument, on that issue, but it has NOT to date.
I disagree with you about several points though..
Gulfstream would not exist as an "airline" if it was not for their FO program. It would still be a sigle pilot 135 operation in 402's or whatever they flew back in the day. It would NEVER have required a so called "deserving" FO. Gulfstream is NO different than Eaglejet,and like companies etc etc It has become an "airline" solely because of the "success" of its FO program. I strongly disagree with seperating Gulfstream from any other "buy time" program. Gulfstream, without the FO program would move back to a single pilot 135 operation.
Another point.. "buy time" programs have been around forever, and majors HAVE NOT moved to PFT. So how can you say Gulfstream will cause this huge change in the industry, if it and other programs alike still have NOT YET caused it today? PFT IS NOT a new concept. It has not changed the way majors run their hiring departments. If it does, then you have an argument, on that issue, but it has NOT to date.
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