PFT-Let it fly!

[100LL... Again!]

Low-time PFT'ers are professional trainees.

Perhaps they also rent their girlfriends by the half hour.

Same basic idea, hmm?

 

[SierraPilot]

If you had the company minimum flight times for a company that practiced PFT, and they had a open position would you still apply for them even so some of the people you might end up working with as FO or Captain paid for that right seat or position??

What got me thinking about this is if you had a person who had a worked his way up to a 121 op by teaching, flying for a 135 op, etc but was working for a company that practiced PFT either currently or in the past, how would one who interviews this person know if this person was hired on his own merits or paid for the position?.

 

[bobbysamd]

Dues-paying member v. P-F-T member

If you had the company minimum flight times for a company that practiced PFT, and they had a open position would you still apply for them even so some of the people you might end up working with as FO or Captain paid for that right seat or position??

What got me thinking about this is if you had a person who had a worked his way up to a 121 op by teaching, flying for a 135 op, etc but was working for a company that practiced PFT either currently or in the past, how would one who interviews this person know if this person was hired on his own merits or paid for the position?.

I'll address the second comment first. That is easy. Look at the interviewee's resume and logbook and ask. I would imagine that most regional pilot-interview board members are savvy enough to know about you-know-where in South Florida and others. Just ask a few probing questions. After identifying for certain that this person P-F-T'd, ask why, especially if he/she was otherwise qualified. Then, you can make your value judgments.

The first comment reminds me about some of my years in the broadcasting business. P-F-T is a good comparison to how so-called large-market radio stations sometimes hire extremely green talent.

I was fortunate enough to have started in a, quote, "larger market," as opposed to small market radio where most people begin. But my "larger market" station was a small and lesser-known radio station that did not broadcast at night. I worked plenty hard and worked my way up. However, management at these larger stations hired talent with much less experience than me, and for better shifts, sometimes. I didn't like that and I resented their presence. I had worked hard to hone my abilities and build experience, and I felt that these less-experienced individuals had no place in our newsroom. Compare that to P-F-T.

Perhaps my outrage should have been directed more at management, but some of these people lacked the talent, and certainly lacked the experience, to truly cut it. That's another reason why I don't like P-F-T.

Timebuilder, care to comment?

 

[Timebuilder]

Sure.

My most vivid memory as a working liberal radio guy was my first promotion, or what was supposed to be my first promotion.

I was a part timer, always available at a moments notice, taking any shift as assigned. My roomate, the overnight guy, had been let go from this AFTRA station after 12 years of service. I had been tagged as his replacement, and even had my friend's "go for it!" endorsement.

New York corporate called down to our local management, and said that legal had noticed that we had no non-white announcers on staff, and my boss was told to put the only black part timer we had in the spot. After he was promoted, someone even joked that I should have rubbed shoe polish all over my face and I might have kept my promotion!

Kind of sounds like United, doesn't it?

I've seen all kinds of people who were not qualified, or "as" qualified, get promoted or hired in radio and TV. There was one news girl who couldn't pronounce Philadelphia, and she was kept on until she got married...to the general manager!

One weekend guy kept turning up the pot to que records, instead of down in the que detent. It was comical to listen to his show, cause sure enough, in the middle of the song, you'd hear him getting the next LP ready, scratching it back and forth to find the right beat to start it!!!

Some of the smaller stations used "interns", PFT guys really, from a local broadcasting "school". They, just like the Gulfstream FO's, were displacing more qualified people.

 

[bobbysamd]

Radio P-F-T

One weekend guy kept turning up the pot to que records, instead of down in the que detent. It was comical to listen to his show, cause sure enough, in the middle of the song, you'd hear him getting the next LP ready, scratching it back and forth to find the right beat to start it!!!

Or else they wouldn't turn up the cue amp and couldn't figure out why they couldn't cue records- so they cue them up on the air. Or, they think they're on "audition" instead of "program." Or, they wouldn't turn up the pot. Or, would "wow" records. Forget to throw tape carts in the machines and would do it on the fly, wowing carts. How about the inadvertant open mike?

These are mistakes that should have been learned from and corrected on 250-watt radio, not on Philly or New York major market radio. Compare to P-F-T. Yeah, you're getting experience, or "experience." You probably would get a lot more out of it had you done some less-pressured flying beforehand.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Sierrapilot-

Nowhere did I say that one MUST instruct to be a good pilot.

I just don't think that wet-behind-the-ears 300 hr pilots belong in a regional aircraft just because they can afford to pay for it.

They really believe they are qualified, but they are not experienced enough to realize how little they know.


Any pilot who gains experience coming up through the ranks and paying a little dues shows more character, and truly deserves the seat when they get it. This includes CFIs, military pilots, etc.

What I was talking about was those who would SKIP the experience-building process and transition right into an airplane they have no business in. (Occasional exceptional pilots notwithstanding.)

 

[SierraPilot]

You know bobbysamd I find it ironic you would equate PFT with cutting in line as you do SOOO often on here.. how do you condone pilots who walk in a resume and cut in line of the hundreds of other resumes sitting on the desk of some HR person of whom probably some have been waiting months, years to hear a respones and very will may be more qualified then this so called "friend". This isnt something that just happens in aviation, but every business and industry out their. This is just a reality of business and yet I dont hear you or anyone complaining about it.. interesting.. in fact it seems to be encouraged in the aviation industry.. its all about who you know, maybe I should spend 20 grand to pay off some Chief Pilot then see how much you complain about cutting in line.

Ryan

 

[bobbysamd]

Cutting in line and contacts

You know bobbysamd I find it ironic you would equate PFT with cutting in line as you do SOOO often on here.. how do you condone pilots who walk in a resume and cut in line of the hundreds of other resumes sitting on the desk of some HR person of whom probably some have been waiting months, years to hear a respones and very will may be more qualified then this so called "friend".

It is a reality, yes. It also doesn't always work.

Case in point: Me. For years, I applied to SkyWest. For years, I updated with Skywest. For years, I never heard from them. Finally, a former student who was a pilot there offered to walk-in materials for me. I prepared a new application, and asked her to submit it with an updated resume and a check for the application fee - just in case my other tons of materials had slipped through the cracks somehow. I heard from SkyWest, all right. It returned my check, which proved that I had not slipped through the cracks. But it never called me for an interview. In all, I tried to be hired at SkyWest for nearly six years.

This was the only time I tried to use a contact to get an aviation job. All my other efforts, and interviews I had and jobs I was offered, were on my own. I tried using a contact to get an interview with a law firm. I was in on the phone conversation when a partner promised I would get an interview. I did not get the interview; in other words, it was a lie.

I had other acquaintances who got in such places as Horizon, where I also tried for a few years They had friends recommend them for jobs. I know that these acquaintances met at least the minimum quals. I had a friend who was female, and far better qualified than me, apply for years to Horizon. She was never called, either.

I do not care for situations where someone with 300 hours gets hired because his father's neighbor's friend plays golf with the Chief Pilot.

Finally, you really cannot compare using a contact with P-F-T. Once more, the operative concept here is pay. People who walk-in materials are doing someone a favor, for free, I assume. Anyone with a fat enough bank account can pay for a job. You do not need contacts for that.

 

[46Driver]

Kind of curious to know what y'all call our military reserve VTU (voluntary training units) where we come in and work in our profession for free.

 

[100LL... Again!]

46 driver-

You're serving the Good ol' USA, right?

Public service + good. Even if you also benefit. As you SHOULD.

PFT is self serving (not inherently a bad thing), but it is buying in over those who are often better qualified and have paid their dues.

If everyone had to PFT, then there would at least be a sense of fairness.

 

[bobbysamd]

Military SERVICE v. PAY-for-training

Kind of curious to know what y'all call our military reserve VTU (voluntary training units) where we come in and work in our profession for free.

I am sure that most people would agree that serving your country, in the military, paid or not, is a completely different animal than pay-for-training. Nothing more need be said.

 

[SierraPilot]

The fact still remains that none of you anti-PFT people can produce any hard facts on how PFT has affected the industry. While you can sit here and say your the majority the fact is you have nothing to back that up.. while you might be a majority on this forum.. whos to say your a not minority on another forum or anywhere else for that fact.

The reality is that cutting in line in the business world is a accepted practice and happens everyday. While you might say that GIA pilots getting paid 8 a hr hurts the industry as they are not protected by a union or supporting a better life for pilots, the fact is that work force unions are only a small minority in the business world. Whos to say pilots at the majors dont think you regional guys are hurting the industry for taking 19 a hr when your worth 2 or 3 times that. Whos to say CFI's who make 10 a hour arnt hurting the aviation profession when they should be paid 3 times that.

Who's to say that PFT is hurting the industry when in fact in might be helping airlines offset the cost of training which while you might think the airline has some god given responsibilty to train you.. the reality is this is not a normal business practice and you should feel fortunate. I'd like to see you get a job in the I.T. Sector and then ask them to spend money to train you on there computer systems.. they will laugh your ass right out the door.

While you can complain about PFT and all the downsides.. there is always two sides to every arguement and this is the way things are in the real world... so get used to it.

Lets play devils advocate for a minute.. what if everyone had to PFT?

1. Well airlines wouldnt have to invest tight profit margins to train you, oh I forgot it doesnt matter if they make a profit or not as long as your getting paid what is due to you.

2. Might weed out those who are not serious or have the apptitude for it. After all why invest money in someone who may wash out. Sounds like a risky investment, and one most businesses wouldnt make.

3. Increased profit margins = healthier airline. Unions love companies who are successful as it give them grounds for seeking better wages and benfits.

4. People who have no desire for being a CFI wouldnt have to do their students a disservice by becoming a CFI.

Pay your dues?? last time I checked this wasnt the military, if you want to pay your dues go join the military. In the real business world you fight your way to the top by whatever means is necessary. If you think being paid 10 a hr to be a CFI is paying your dues, then your in the wrong line of business. Go get a job in the business sector.. at least your get paid what your worth and you wont have to whine about people cutting in front of you.. as you will soon find out this is just a normal everyday occurance.. I've been in the I.T. Industry for 10 yrs and you dont see people like me whining about it.

Ryan

 

[100LL... Again!]

Sierrapilot-

I guess if you want to hire people on their ability to pay instead of their ability to fly, why not?

If EVERYONE had to PFT, that would be one thing.

That is not the case.


If pilots were paid a respectable wage, perhaps PFT would be acceptable. Southwest, for example. Even though SWA is not truly PFT, it serves the point that PFT wouldn't suck if you knew you were going to get your $ back in short order.

 

[stillaboo]

The fact still remains that none of you anti-PFT people can produce any hard facts on how PFT has affected the industry.

You take great pains to not be labeled as a PFT’r yourself. If there’s no shame in it, then why do you go to such efforts?

Lets play devils advocate for a minute.. what if everyone had to PFT?

2. Might weed out those who are not serious or have the apptitude for it. After all why invest money in someone who may wash out. Sounds like a risky investment, and one most businesses wouldnt make.

Might weed out all of those who don't have the $ to buy airline jobs too, huh? When an airline hires someone, one of the qualities they look for is 'will this guy successfully complete training?', just as any other business would.

Pay your dues?? last time I checked this wasnt the military, if you want to pay your dues go join the military. In the real business world you fight your way to the top by whatever means is necessary. . . I've been in the I.T. Industry for 10 yrs and you dont see people like me whining about it.

So, if you're not in the military, you don't pay your dues, huh? Well, I don't see 'military' in your profile, so I can only assume you will never pay your dues in this industry. As far as what happens in "the real business world", in the real world it's all about whom you know. Most people get their job b/c a friend recommended them, and it works the same in the airline industry.

The airline industry is one of the most competitive businesses in the country, and successes within it fill volumes of Harvard Case Studies (Business students study these in class to learn ‘real world’ scenarios and how they were dealt with, as do law students). It is just as much real world as the IT world, if not more so.

I believe most PFT FO’s are not kept on once their training contract is expired, so I can only assume that they were not seen as desirable employees, but rather as a source of income. Why else would one train a perfectly competent pilot (at their expense, no less!) only to let him go after he finally is familiar with the company’s procedures?

The last paragraph is what I seek an answer to.

So, how 'bout them Gators! Can't believe Kentucky let them back into the game at the last second. I think this speaks volumes about the intellect of Kentucy quarterbacks!

 

[SierraPilot]

You take great pains to not be labeled as a PFT’r yourself. If there’s no shame in it, then why do you go to such efforts?

Just because I think its ok or a good idea for some does not mean its the right thing for me or something I wish to pursue at this time, although things could change in the future.. personally if I did decide to goto GIA, nothing anybody has said on here is convincing enough to me to persuade me for doing otherwise.

Might weed out all of those who don't have the $ to buy airline jobs too, huh? When an airline hires someone, one of the qualities they look for is 'will this guy successfully complete training?', just as any other business would.

Yeah but other business dont have to throw down 20 grand on that risk.. if you get hired in IT and you screw up.. its no big loss... they didnt invest 20 grand in you in hopes that you succeed, thats the difference.

So, if you're not in the military, you don't pay your dues, huh?.

What I meant to imply was that unlike the military, in the business world we dont use a system of you must do A, B, C before you can do D like the military. People in the business world quite often then not might start out at A and move to D because he had the money to pay for the certifaction that I couldnt afford, thats reality.

Most people get their job b/c a friend recommended them, and it works the same in the airline industry.

And this is makes some of you anti-PFT people hypocrites.. so much for cutting in line. I suppose just because someone attended some ivy league college like hardvard, because his daddy had contacts or the money means he can cut in front of the next guy who attend some state college because he had contacts and I suppose you condone this as well..

I believe most PFT FO’s are not kept on once their training contract is expired, so I can only assume that they were not seen as desirable employees, but rather as a source of income. Why else would one train a perfectly competent pilot (at their expense, no less!) only to let him go after he finally is familiar with the company’s procedures?

Prove it. I suppose you can produce something that supports your conclusion? I doubt it. I suppose you also would conclude just because 100 students graduated from FSI that somehow they are inferior because they werent offered a CFI position right after they completed training.. whatever.

BTW stillaboo.. didnt you attend MAPD??

Ryan