PFT-Let it fly!

[1.3XVso]

I'm PROUD TO BE PFT !!!!!!!!!!!! woooooooooohooooooooooooo NO CFI FOR ME hahahhah. Ok OK I'm being a bit sarchastic i'm sorry guys... Just one thing though.. I would like to thank all the CFI that helped me get my ratings thanks =D.. Dam its also pathetic that I have'nt posted a thread for about 3 month or so maybe a bit more but dam its ALWAYS THE SAME MORONS. SAFE FLYING.

 

[s3jetman]

Take this into consideration

John
Year 2006- Starts flying
2007- Has private inst. commercial
2008- Has CFI, CFII, MEI
2008 to 2011- 3 years of instruction and 1,500 hrs with 200 Multi
2011 Gets hierd by airline X with a seniority number of 251

Bob
Year 2009-2010Starts flying does private, inst, multi-commecial and does GS program.
Year 2011 finishes program and gets hired by Airline X with a seniority number of 250

Year 2015 tragedy strikes and Airline X has to due cuts to 250 pilots.


Airline X does not ask how many hours you have done steep turns, stalls, touch-n-goes or what ever. John is gone and Bob is still flying.

Point is that no matter what you or anyone else thinks or believes is right or ethical, a pilots seniority number is the most valuable thing he/she has.

As far as doing it the way it has always been done, that is the biggest crock of Sh** i have heard. There are few things done in this world today, they way they were done years ago.

Conclusion
My seniority number will be higher than yours and that is all that matters

 

[1skydive]

Just to add another point of view here.... I haven't started training but I have been talking to and visiting different schools and this is what I have been told over and over.....

"Network, network, network. It's not what you know but who you know". Then they go on to tell you how a friend of theirs was trying to get into airlineX and they have loads of hours and experience and yet the airline hired someone else with only 300 hours because it was someone the chief pilot knew.

Now tell me how fair this is to the experienced pilot? This to me is far worse than PFT yet no-one complains about this unfairness like they do about PFT.

 

[350DRIVER]

"Network, network, network. It's not what you know but who you know". Then they go on to tell you how a friend of theirs was trying to get into airlineX and they have loads of hours and experience and yet the airline hired someone else with only 300 hours because it was someone the chief pilot knew.

Someone being hired at a regional with 300 hours due S O L E L Y to the fact that they knew the chief pilot really is somewhat a myth for the most part, son with all due respect you are out of the loop with reality. This certainly is not the norm and I think this is somewhat a dream that you may be having. There are only a few places out there that will even take 300 hour guys due to a bridge program that is set up. Most of the other regionals want 500/100 if you come through a program that they have an agreement with. Even if this does happen once in a blue moon atleast they are not $crewing themselves and their careers when it comes to interview time at a national or major. I for one would hate to have to justify to an interview board why I had to go out and "buy" my job for X amount of dollars. Try it though and some old salt who is sitting on the interview board who had to come up the ranks the hard way will eat you up and spit you out like a rag doll. Ask around if you know anyone who is flying the bigger iron. I know a DAL captain who made it a point to $crew with these guys when they came for there "big day". It is funny what people will do now to only regret it down the line at some point....

Now tell me how fair this is to the experienced pilot? This to me is far worse than PFT yet no-one complains about this unfairness like they do about PFT.

Someone once told me that life was not always fair.. AS previously stated, this very seldom will happen.. PFT is nothing more than "buying" your seat without earning it. Do it though so you can regret it down the line. Try the Colgan gig and your life will be absolute he!! once you hit the line. Try the Gulfstream gig and the same will apply when you hit Pinnacle.

not very smart-


3 5 0

 

[1skydive]

son with all due respect you are out of the loop with reality.

I can't agree more.... and as someone thinking about joining this industry I was totally shocked too, However, these are not my words. I have been told this story by at least two schools I visited very recently AND by a pilot I talked to after one of my flights. So, if it's not in touch with reality, why are they telling a prospective student stuff like this?

Maybe the 300 hour thing was a little low, but the story still holds truth about two pilots qualified for a job (one more than the other) and the lesser qualified pilot gets the job becasue of someone they knew.

My point was just to ask why people don't complain about this and compain so readily about PFT. As a wannabe, I'm just trying to understand the industry.

Just to let you know, I was not considering PFT. I agree with most on here that jobs should be earned by going through the ranks, not bought just because you have the cash, or given the job because you know the top guy at the company.

 

[350DRIVER]

I can't agree more.... and as someone thinking about joining this industry I was totally shocked too, However, these are not my words. I have been told this story by at least two schools I visited very recently AND by a pilot I talked to after one of my flights. So, if it's not in touch with reality, why are they telling a prospective student stuff like this?

1skydive,

It is much the same as buying a car, the less one woud tell the less likely a red flag would appear to a prospective "buyer" and in this case the student. It is really all about marketing and these places know how to do that better than most, take a look at the flashy and one sided ads in the more popular flying magazines. Why not promise someone the world? Most of these guys that get sucked into these types of programs are somewhat young, nieve, and out of touch with the industry as a whole so they are not going to have the concerns or questions that the more experienced guys would have. It is relatively easy to brainwash someone into doing this because at that level the student is usually "awed" by what he or she is seeing, hearing, etc, etc, . I can tell you though that this will come back to bite you in the future. It may be all fun and games dressing up like a pilot and playing around in a King Air 90 but when you finally get to the "select" few regionals that will accept you after completing the program then life is going to take a turn for the worse. Everyone person that I know who is at the regionals present day and days past have absolutely no respect for anyone who "bought" a job and they are not very friendly to these guys when they hit the line.

My point was just to ask why people don't complain about this and compain so readily about PFT. As a wannabe, I'm just trying to understand the industry.

Because who you "know" is not nearly on the same level as renting or buying a seat in a plane for X amount of hours. It is one thing to get the interview by someone walking your resume in but it is a completely different animal to solely get the interview based on the fact that you played pilot in a King Air or rented the seat of a 1900 out for 250 hours, big difference.


3 5 0

 

[TZRav8r]

Since the bulk of my flying career has been spent with the same small 135 outfit, I don’t really have the experience of being a union member or being cut off by a PFTer. However, what I can’t really grasp, after reading all these PFT-type threads, is why in the world is anyone would hold a grudge against individuals who PFT. I understand the thought process that would anger someone who has been cutoff on final or in the grocery store. I understand this analogy. Would I be mad? Yes! Would I hate that individual? No. The reason why is if the grocery store allows or in this case encourages line jumpers, I would have to say my hostilities would be directed towards the store. What I’m trying to say here is, that while you or I may not like the PFT programs they are accepted practices of the industry. After all, and I may being showing my lack of ‘flying the line’ experience here, but I would have to believe that if these companies who have PFT programs were not able to code share with a major, they would not exist. Am I wrong here? I am lead to the conclusion that if unions (the pilot collective) were truly interested in stopping PFT programs then they would have no problem, as collective, dissuading major airlines from coding sharing with PFT-types. After all, when we as consumers learn that our favorite celebrity endorsed clothing line is being produced in some third world, horrible sweat shop, we (at least I) don’t get enraged at all those sonofab!tchin, rat b@stard, workers for whoring themselves for a fraction of what an American might get paid. I tend to get more upset with those who produce the product and exploit others. It appears to me that Colgan, Gulfstream and others who engage in PFT programs are the bad ones. They are the ones exploiting those who have all the desire and none of the experience. Why is Colgan allowed to code share with Airways and Gulfstream with whomever, is it CAL? Why does ALPA not take an aggressive stance against PFT? Am I totally off base here? Wouldn't be a first!

 

[de727ups]

TZR8vator

Can't really disagree with that. ALPA is distracted by so many things that PFT means nothing to them. If you take your average ALPA line guy and ask them what PFT means...they won't have a clue. If you explain to them that PFT means pilots paying for a job and that the next thing you know, Delta will take 50K for any guy willing to pay it to sit in their seat...then your average line guy will have an opinon.

PFT sucks and to my dying breath I'll tell everyone I know to discriminate at the interview against those who chose this route. Be warned, if you choose the PFT route you may lose out in a future interview for what seems to you like no reason. However, the reason will be clear as daylight to the rest of us.....

 

[T-Gates]

Re: TZR8vator

PFT sucks and to my dying breath I'll tell everyone I know to discriminate at the interview against those who chose this route. Be warned, if you choose the PFT route you may lose out in a future interview for what seems to you like no reason. However, the reason will be clear as daylight to the rest of us.....

So you're saying you should discriminate against those who PFT'ed even if thier descision was based on mis-information? Unfortunatley not everyone reads Flightinfo, nor does everyone run into people so anti-PFT as you are so obviously are.

When Lorenzo went to recruit his scabs in the 1980's ALPA sent communications officers all over the country to dissuade people from becoming pawns in his game. When UAL had scabs ready pre-strike in 1985, ALPA went in and talked to the group teaching them all about what would be instore for them if they crossed the picket lines.

ALPA (nor any other union) has taken no such position on PFT.... Does that mean that it is right and everyone should do it? No! But until there is a hard and fast stance on it you will never end it. Flightinfo will never end it. Not even people who are denied jobs because of it will end PFT. Because how many interviewers will sit there and tell someone face-to-face that? Mabye some, but not many.

I know companies like Trans States have clauses in thier pilot contracts that state "The company will pay for all initial, recurrent, and upgrde training." I encourage all pilots to try and get this added. THAT will kill PFT, not denying people jobs to fufill a personal vendetta against those who didn't CFI for 2000 hours and fly single pilot freight in a 210.

Just venting, and my defensive stance is because at one point I did PFT. So I am looking at this from the "other side of the fence" as it were.

I know I am not going to change anyone's mind, but I had to give my .02 nonetheless....

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

However, what I can’t really grasp, after reading all these PFT-type threads, is why in the world is anyone would hold a grudge against individuals who PFT. I understand the thought process that would anger someone who has been cutoff on final or in the grocery store. I understand this analogy.

That is one issue. We live in a society that is based on rules and order. For the most part, our society works well because people follow the rules. People expect others to follow the rules. Those who do not follow the rules offend the rest of society.

In the case of P-F-T, jobs that ordinarily go to the best qualified in terms of experience go to the best qualified in terms of finances. Those individuals, by virtue of their finances, cut in front of others. I will not bring up ethics and pride.

f the grocery store allows or in this case encourages line jumpers, I would have to say my hostilities would be directed towards the store.

The P-F-T airline, or "store," deserves your hostility. The answer would be to boycott the "store," or P-F-T airline. But, just as people need to purchase food, certain pilots feel compelled to purchase their jobs. They want to shortcut the accepted rules, which are working one's way up the ranks. Or, no one else will "hire" them. In either case, it offends the majority, who abides by the rules.

One other point. Until I was involved in aviation, I never heard of any business where an employee has to pay for training as a condition of employment, which, of course, is paying for the job. That is insulting. Employers who see that employees want so badly to have the job will find other ways to take advantage of them. That is not the proper relationship to establish with an employer.

 

[uscpilot]

Point is that no matter what you or anyone else thinks or believes is right or ethical, a pilots seniority number is the most valuable thing he/she has.

As far as doing it the way it has always been done, that is the biggest crock of Sh** i have heard. There are few things done in this world today, they way they were done years ago.

Conclusion
My seniority number will be higher than yours and that is all that matters

Dear weasel,
The point that you are missing is that people on interview boards may have a problem with PFT. They might see it as perpetuating an evil by hiring a PFTer. Be sure to tell the interviewer when they question you about your choice to PFT that their opinoion is a "crock of Sh**", I am sure it will go over real well. Knowing this how are you going to get this all important senority number? The most important thing a pilot can have is a back bone and their dignity. You have neither.
When this "tragedy" happens I hope you are #251.
Jetman, you are a weasel, woops already said that, oh well it need to be said.
usc
PS My senority number will be higher than yours.

 

[flyifrvfr]

and also we could throw in all Commercial Truck Driving Inst. I guess they exploit the system too. lol
by the way, Im a bus driver, am I nobody. lol [/B][/QUOTE]

I'm also a Tractor Trailer Driver who had to pay my dues driving crap equipment and the worst runs before I could get the experience to work for a real company.We can clearly see how aviation compares to truck driving.You pay your dues as a flight instructor after paying for the ratings to make you a CFI.You than fly crappy twins in all kinds of weather to build twin time.Then you get hired to fly for real companies,not by PFT.

 

[Lucky]

Take this into consideration

John
Year 2006- Starts flying
2007- Has private inst. commercial
2008- Has CFI, CFII, MEI
2008 to 2011- 3 years of instruction and 1,500 hrs with 200 Multi
2011 Gets hierd by airline X with a seniority number of 251

Bob
Year 2009-2010Starts flying does private, inst, multi-commecial and does GS program.
Year 2011 finishes program and gets hired by Airline X with a seniority number of 250

Year 2015 tragedy strikes and Airline X has to due cuts to 250 pilots.

heres a little more realistic timeframe for the non- pft pilot.

Larry
Starts in 2009-2010 has pvt, inst, CSEL, CMEL, CFI, CFII, MEI.
2010-2011. Works for a year as an IP. leaves over 1000TT 150ME making more as an Instructor than a GS Sca... err...."pilot" isnt let go with only 550- 600TT 250 SIC hours when the airlines want to see PIC and no new ratings and an addtional $23,000 bill for nothing.
2011 Hired at a Regional flying jet equipment earning well over $25K their first year as an F.O. and all without the Stigma of PFT.

 

[tmwunder]

Dean,

I am in your situation. I want to get the best flying job in as little as possible. I have only 200 total hours and have debated which way to go.... go with ATP and get 200 hours really quick or go the FBO route. I have not yet made my decision, but I am 80% sure I am going to go the FBO route. The reason for this is because look at the experienced pilot's responses. You have to give the guys who are there the credit and listen to them. Ya it would be great if I could pay 35G and get my pilot job. That is only looking at the short term. Look at the long term. My decision to go the FBO route is because of the responses from the people that are there! You can think in your head all I have to do is spend a lot of money and get the time and I will make it faster, but you are not looking 10 years down the road. Like I said before I am in your same boat, but I am not looking at next year or the year after (I am only 24 and also have a college degree, and also had a great job the last two years) and I have decided I will put in my time and I truely believe it will pay off within 10 years. Yes you may have a better job than me in the next few years, but how about if we have this same conversation in 10 years? I don't know maybe you will.... but I like my chances.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Amen...

350Driver,

I have not agreed with you on a couple of your posts on other threads, but I have to agree with everything you are saying on this PFT issue. Any of you newbies reading pay close attention to 350's post.


Hey TZRav8r,

How 'bout a link or PM to your avatar, way too cool.

 

[TZRav8r]

A great site! Enjoy!
Link

 

[pilotyip]

PFT is OK

Your views of PFT are too narrow. A retiring AF officer has not flown in five years, desk jobs at the end of his career, he wants to fly but gets the "you are not current blow off", he has 3500 hours in C-130's, he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get back into the job market. He has a rich uncle that will pay for his training, (USAF retirement), PFT may be ok for him, Army WO gets out after 7 yrs, 1500 hours H-60 time, 45 hours fixed wing, he gets the blow off "You are not a real pilot no fixed wing time blow off", he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get into the job market. He has saved 45K to pay for this from his Army pay. I was a 10K, 7K MEL turbine hour pilot, Navy trained, previous 121 pilot, who looked at PFT at three companies, (see previous posts), in 1996, I did not take the jobs for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with PFT. I could have afforded it and it opened doors. Bottom line, PFT has a place, and some highly qualified people can benefit from it, and it not for anyone on this board to judge those who pursue their career through PFT. I have hired one PFT, and he was low time and he flew rings around many of his higher time non-PFT classmates.

 

[bobbysamd]

No, it is not okay

Your views of PFT are too narrow. A retiring AF officer has not flown in five years, desk jobs at the end of his career, he wants to fly but gets the "you are not current blow off", he has 3500 hours in C-130's, he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get back into the job market. He has a rich uncle that will pay for his training, (USAF retirement), PFT may be ok for him, Army WO gets out after 7 yrs, 1500 hours H-60 time, 45 hours fixed wing, he gets the blow off "You are not a real pilot no fixed wing time blow off", he looks at the GS PFT as a way to get into the job market.

Baloney.

For one thing, these folks already have an advantage over the ordinary Joe. They are former military pilots. Formrer military pilots go to the head of the line every time in any hiring situation. (I won't use "cut in line"- it is not the same as P-F-T-cutting-in-line.) Airlines still prefer military pilots, in any guise, over civilian pilots. A military pilot could be completely uncurrent but if H.R. sees military quals H.R.'s attention has been obtained.

Having said all that, it's a waste of time for most anyone to apply for a flying job if he/she is not current. So, what's stopping any of these folks from trundling down to their local airport, getting with an instructor, and getting current again? Just for fun, let's say it would cost $150 an hour for airplane and instructor, and he/she needs twenty hours to get current again. Do the math. That's an expenditure of $3K. Much cheaper than $45K P-F-T tuition - and it avoids that stigma.

As far as rotor guys go, what's stopping them from getting some fixed-wing hours, initially through instructing or whatever? Your H-60 pilot example already has 1500 hours - perhaps enough to get his/her ATP. He/she would be good to go once he/she has a few fixed-wing hours in the logbook.

No. P-F-T is never acceptable.

 

[de727ups]

I don't know

I don't see how one being willing to pay for a job that is normally a paid job helps to improve conditions for professional pilots in the industry. In fact, it could lead to management asking for these sort of payment for a job schemes to become the norm. Since pilot YIP is management and anti-union, I can see why he feels the way he does. Pilot YIP, maybe USA jet should work a deal like Gulfstream or TAB express. You might be able to put some money in your pocket.

 

[deadstick]

Re: No, it is not okay

As far as rotor guys go, what's stopping them from getting some fixed-wing hours, initially through instructing or whatever? Your H-60 pilot example already has 1500 hours - perhaps enough to get his/her ATP. He/she would be good to go once he/she has a few fixed-wing hours in the logbook.[/B]

bobbysmad,

I have to disagree with you on this. A few fixed-wing hours?? That pilot with 1500RW/45FW is a 45 hr pilot in the eyes of places like Express Jet. They ask for ONLY FW hours and there was no place on the weed-out application for specialized training, like military flight school. It's just been in the last couple of years, thanks in large part to APTAP that military helicopter pilots have gotten a shot at the regionals. The attitude towards helo pilots was (is) disgusting. The regionals are not the only ones. Some freight operators only look at FW hours, too. So, after sombody "pays their dues" flying for our military, they should spend another 2 years "paying their dues" to the Cessna 172 students of America because they are "not a real pilot?" No way. People who think RW hours aren't as good as FW hours don't know what they are talking about. If you don't believe me, go find a helo school and go on a demo flight.