PFT-Let it fly!

[bobbysamd]

Military SERVICE v. PAY-for-training

Kind of curious to know what y'all call our military reserve VTU (voluntary training units) where we come in and work in our profession for free.

I am sure that most people would agree that serving your country, in the military, paid or not, is a completely different animal than pay-for-training. Nothing more need be said.

 

[SierraPilot]

The fact still remains that none of you anti-PFT people can produce any hard facts on how PFT has affected the industry. While you can sit here and say your the majority the fact is you have nothing to back that up.. while you might be a majority on this forum.. whos to say your a not minority on another forum or anywhere else for that fact.

The reality is that cutting in line in the business world is a accepted practice and happens everyday. While you might say that GIA pilots getting paid 8 a hr hurts the industry as they are not protected by a union or supporting a better life for pilots, the fact is that work force unions are only a small minority in the business world. Whos to say pilots at the majors dont think you regional guys are hurting the industry for taking 19 a hr when your worth 2 or 3 times that. Whos to say CFI's who make 10 a hour arnt hurting the aviation profession when they should be paid 3 times that.

Who's to say that PFT is hurting the industry when in fact in might be helping airlines offset the cost of training which while you might think the airline has some god given responsibilty to train you.. the reality is this is not a normal business practice and you should feel fortunate. I'd like to see you get a job in the I.T. Sector and then ask them to spend money to train you on there computer systems.. they will laugh your ass right out the door.

While you can complain about PFT and all the downsides.. there is always two sides to every arguement and this is the way things are in the real world... so get used to it.

Lets play devils advocate for a minute.. what if everyone had to PFT?

1. Well airlines wouldnt have to invest tight profit margins to train you, oh I forgot it doesnt matter if they make a profit or not as long as your getting paid what is due to you.

2. Might weed out those who are not serious or have the apptitude for it. After all why invest money in someone who may wash out. Sounds like a risky investment, and one most businesses wouldnt make.

3. Increased profit margins = healthier airline. Unions love companies who are successful as it give them grounds for seeking better wages and benfits.

4. People who have no desire for being a CFI wouldnt have to do their students a disservice by becoming a CFI.

Pay your dues?? last time I checked this wasnt the military, if you want to pay your dues go join the military. In the real business world you fight your way to the top by whatever means is necessary. If you think being paid 10 a hr to be a CFI is paying your dues, then your in the wrong line of business. Go get a job in the business sector.. at least your get paid what your worth and you wont have to whine about people cutting in front of you.. as you will soon find out this is just a normal everyday occurance.. I've been in the I.T. Industry for 10 yrs and you dont see people like me whining about it.

Ryan

 

[100LL... Again!]

Sierrapilot-

I guess if you want to hire people on their ability to pay instead of their ability to fly, why not?

If EVERYONE had to PFT, that would be one thing.

That is not the case.


If pilots were paid a respectable wage, perhaps PFT would be acceptable. Southwest, for example. Even though SWA is not truly PFT, it serves the point that PFT wouldn't suck if you knew you were going to get your $ back in short order.

 

[stillaboo]

The fact still remains that none of you anti-PFT people can produce any hard facts on how PFT has affected the industry.

You take great pains to not be labeled as a PFT’r yourself. If there’s no shame in it, then why do you go to such efforts?

Lets play devils advocate for a minute.. what if everyone had to PFT?

2. Might weed out those who are not serious or have the apptitude for it. After all why invest money in someone who may wash out. Sounds like a risky investment, and one most businesses wouldnt make.

Might weed out all of those who don't have the $ to buy airline jobs too, huh? When an airline hires someone, one of the qualities they look for is 'will this guy successfully complete training?', just as any other business would.

Pay your dues?? last time I checked this wasnt the military, if you want to pay your dues go join the military. In the real business world you fight your way to the top by whatever means is necessary. . . I've been in the I.T. Industry for 10 yrs and you dont see people like me whining about it.

So, if you're not in the military, you don't pay your dues, huh? Well, I don't see 'military' in your profile, so I can only assume you will never pay your dues in this industry. As far as what happens in "the real business world", in the real world it's all about whom you know. Most people get their job b/c a friend recommended them, and it works the same in the airline industry.

The airline industry is one of the most competitive businesses in the country, and successes within it fill volumes of Harvard Case Studies (Business students study these in class to learn ‘real world’ scenarios and how they were dealt with, as do law students). It is just as much real world as the IT world, if not more so.

I believe most PFT FO’s are not kept on once their training contract is expired, so I can only assume that they were not seen as desirable employees, but rather as a source of income. Why else would one train a perfectly competent pilot (at their expense, no less!) only to let him go after he finally is familiar with the company’s procedures?

The last paragraph is what I seek an answer to.

So, how 'bout them Gators! Can't believe Kentucky let them back into the game at the last second. I think this speaks volumes about the intellect of Kentucy quarterbacks!

 

[SierraPilot]

You take great pains to not be labeled as a PFT’r yourself. If there’s no shame in it, then why do you go to such efforts?

Just because I think its ok or a good idea for some does not mean its the right thing for me or something I wish to pursue at this time, although things could change in the future.. personally if I did decide to goto GIA, nothing anybody has said on here is convincing enough to me to persuade me for doing otherwise.

Might weed out all of those who don't have the $ to buy airline jobs too, huh? When an airline hires someone, one of the qualities they look for is 'will this guy successfully complete training?', just as any other business would.

Yeah but other business dont have to throw down 20 grand on that risk.. if you get hired in IT and you screw up.. its no big loss... they didnt invest 20 grand in you in hopes that you succeed, thats the difference.

So, if you're not in the military, you don't pay your dues, huh?.

What I meant to imply was that unlike the military, in the business world we dont use a system of you must do A, B, C before you can do D like the military. People in the business world quite often then not might start out at A and move to D because he had the money to pay for the certifaction that I couldnt afford, thats reality.

Most people get their job b/c a friend recommended them, and it works the same in the airline industry.

And this is makes some of you anti-PFT people hypocrites.. so much for cutting in line. I suppose just because someone attended some ivy league college like hardvard, because his daddy had contacts or the money means he can cut in front of the next guy who attend some state college because he had contacts and I suppose you condone this as well..

I believe most PFT FO’s are not kept on once their training contract is expired, so I can only assume that they were not seen as desirable employees, but rather as a source of income. Why else would one train a perfectly competent pilot (at their expense, no less!) only to let him go after he finally is familiar with the company’s procedures?

Prove it. I suppose you can produce something that supports your conclusion? I doubt it. I suppose you also would conclude just because 100 students graduated from FSI that somehow they are inferior because they werent offered a CFI position right after they completed training.. whatever.

BTW stillaboo.. didnt you attend MAPD??

Ryan

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T as backstabbing and cost-savings

The reality is that cutting in line in the business world is a accepted practice and happens everyday.

Accepted by whom, my friend? I've worked in two other businesses and seen people cut in line. Those people were resented for their actions.

Let's put it another way. You've worked in I.T. How many backstabbers have you encountered in your time? You know, the people who smile at you and act as if they're your friends while, in the meantime, they kiss the boss' ass and badmouth you to the boss with the sole aim of acing YOU out of a job. If you think about it, P-F-T is a form of institutionalized backstabbing.

Who's to say that PFT is hurting the industry when in fact in might be helping airlines offset the cost of training which while you might think the airline has some god given responsibilty to train you.. the reality is this is not a normal business practice and you should feel fortunate. I'd like to see you get a job in the I.T. Sector and then ask them to spend money to train you on there computer systems.. they will laugh your ass right out the door.

This is a compound argument. It is not a matter of the airline having a G-d-given reponsibility to train you; it is an FAA-mandated responsibility. 14 CFR 121.400. The reg does not set forth how the airline will recover its costs of training, but generally-accepted accounting principles and IRS regulations permit an airline, or any business, to deduct costs of training from gross income as an ordinary business expense. Accordingly, crew training is indeed a normal business practice of the airlines.

I do not pretend to know what are normal business and training practices in I.T. However, I do have a little knowledge about normal airline and aviation business practices. Comparing one to the other is an apples-and-oranges comparision. I do understand that I.T. requires you to be trained in your speciality before you will be considered for employment. I knew a lawyer who wanted to be a Novell network engineer. He had to be trained beforehand before he could change careers.

Per my cite to the FARs, above, no matter how much training and experience you have, the FAA requires an airline to train you its way. I would suggest that you learn the normal business practices of aviation before trying to run a comparison of it and I.T.

Finally,

Pay your dues?? last time I checked this wasnt the military, if you want to pay your dues go join the military.

So, that means that we civilians have never paid dues and that only military people have paid dues? Not only is that absurd, it is preposterous.

If you think being paid 10 a hr to be a CFI is paying your dues, then your in the wrong line of business.

No. You misunderstand in part the meaning of "pay your dues." The term means gaining experience. Learning the ropes. Waiting for your turn. It is not tied strictly to wages.

Review of your profile tells all about your experience in professional aviation. After you've worked in this business a while you might understand the points that some of us are making.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

didnt you attend MAPD??

FYI, MAPD is not P-F-T. Although MAPD is run by Mesa Airlines and its graduates can interview with Mesa at 300 hours, the program trains for FAA ratings that are good anywhere. The A.S. degree earned at San Juan College is fully accredited.

 

[Timebuilder]

The fact still remains that none of you anti-PFT people can produce any hard facts on how PFT has affected the industry.

I thought I had made this quite clear early on.

Every PFT pilot is displacing one qualified pilot from what would be a paying position.

In this way, he affects the industry directly, and because others may start PFT operations to compete with the first carrier's lower CODB, he can also be a part of a ripple effect beyond his own carrier.

That is a hard and indisputable fact, is it not?

 

[de727ups]

Sierra pilot

You ask us to prove that PFT hurts the piloting career. We say over and over that it lowers the bar of the profession by taking away what would otherwise be a paid job. Perhaps PFT hasn't hurt the profession yet, but many of us see the damage that it could do if it runs rampant throughout the entire industry....which it could do.

I'll ask you this....prove that PFT is good for the piloting profession.

 

[SierraPilot]

Re: Sierra pilot

I'll ask you this....prove that PFT is good for the piloting profession. [/B]

You know that has been the whole point of this all along.. you cant prove it hurts it anymore then I can prove it might help. While your opinions and points are well taken.. they are just that.. "opinions" and nothing more. You guys come across as though you this is all based on facts which is preposterous.

While PFT pilots might very well be displacing one qualified pilot from what would be a paying position which I dont dispute, I doubt the few students that do displace other pilots is enough to cause any considerable harm to the aviation industry.

You know bobbysamd it bothers me that people who are against PFT seem to condone cutting in line when its in the form of having a friend get you a job because hes friends with the chief pilot and yet come on here and whine about cutting in line.. and on that note.. Yes, I have seen people who kisses the bosses ass to get a job I might want.. but I dont go around to forums complaining about people cutting in front of me either.

While I understand the FAA mandates this training for new hires, that never the less doesnt mean it isnt a risk on the airlines part that most business dont have to finance or consider when hiring a new employee, and while they can write it off to the IRS its still a business expense none the less after all this money has to come from somewhere right?

Not tied to wages? You call paying your dues working as a CFI for 10 a hr or as you like to call it.. gaining experience (same difference), I call it being taken advantage of, at least if I spend 20 grand for a FO I'm getting exactly what I asked for which I cant say the same for that CFI..

I understand MAPD is not per say PFT.. but then again by your definition isnt some 300 hr MAPD grad cutting in line to?

This whole discussion sounds hypocritial to me. So I guess what I'm missing is SOME form of cutting in line is ok as long as we call it ab-initio or networking and others are not ok when it might potentially take away a job from you who probably could care less about every working for someone like gulfstream.. I think I get it now.

Ryan

 

[Timebuilder]

You know that has been the whole point of this all along.. you cant prove it hurts it anymore then I can prove it might help.

Yes, I have. Every PFT seat is a lost job.

I doubt the few students that do displace other pilots is enough to cause any considerable harm to the aviation industry.

This is true only if YOU are the pilot who is not being displaced.

You know bobbysamd it bothers me that people who are against PFT seem to condone cutting in line when its in the form of having a friend get you a job because hes friends with the chief pilot and yet come on here and whine about cutting in line..

You might think of that as cutting in line, but the truth is that most people are hired on the recommendation of someone else. Even when you have a recommendation of someone, you might never get a phone call. I have a captain friend at Flight Options that recommended me for a job, and not so much as a peep from their office.

You can call it "whining" if you like. It is something that is endemic to many people who are younger than I am, this kind of characterizartion. I think it is because they never learned to be respectful of others, particularly their elders, as I did as a kid in the 50's. I think it goes hand in hand with the willingness to step on people as you try to advance your career, as opposed to working with the established plan of learning, teaching, dues paying, and working your way up. It's "mine, mine, and now, now!" for many younger pilots. This is our way of taking kids aside and saying "look here, kid, you're making a big mistake if you do this, not only for yourself but others as well". That's called teaching, and not whining.

I think I get it now.

I doubt it. Instead of paying attention and learning, discerning rightly what you are being taught, you are keeping your own limited council.

Not smart.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T, networking, and cutting in line

You know bobbysamd it bothers me that people who are against PFT seem to condone cutting in line when its in the form of having a friend get you a job because hes friends with the chief pilot and yet come on here and whine about cutting in line.. and on that note.. Yes, I have seen people who kisses the bosses ass to get a job I might want.. but I dont go around to forums complaining about people cutting in front of me either.

(emphasis added)

I do not believe you read completely my earlier comments about that practice. For your benefit, I'll reprint my point:

Finally, you really cannot compare using a contact with P-F-T. Once more, the operative concept here is pay. People who walk-in materials are doing someone a favor, for free, I assume. Anyone with a fat enough bank account can pay for a job. You do not need contacts for that.

Some people have the breaks, yes, when they know someone. But paying to get a job is cutting in line in its most noxious and nefarious form. Reread the last two sentences of my comments, above, if this point is not clear to you, and then you might understand why people complain. And, once more, my friend, you might understand what we mean after you have left Sierra Academy and have (tried to) worked in the business a while.

 

[bobbysamd]

Define "hypocrite"

Bobbysamd if you have that many hours and have trouble getting a job, and you are bitching at everyone else, then you have a problem that is far worse than the PFT'ers do.

I don't know how long you've been involved in aviation or have read aviation publications, but I gather from your profile that it has not been long. In any event, about ten years ago SkyWest was featured in Career Pilot magazine. The article quoted a Dale Merrill, who was VP of H.R. Mr. Merrill stated than anyone who has not been hired by 2500 hours must have "a problem" and was in need of a "hard look." So, I guess I had a problem, eh? Amazing how Merrill knew all about me without ever meeting me! Never mind that I started applying there at about 1000 hours, which are SkyWest's mins.

My point, if you don't get it by now, is the people who screen apps tend to be arbitrary. The process is arbitary. It is unfair. They don't look at the whole person. However, throw a check at these people and there's no more arbitrary. Just that someone who is otherwise qualified is displaced in favor of the dough-loaded dude. FYI, I could have put my hands on money to P-F-T. I found the notion of it insulting and humiliating.

And if you are not working in the industry, then leave these people alone and let them fly the way they want to fly.

I wasn't aware that I was criticizing their flying abilities.

That aside, I came on this board about two years ago after being out of aviation eight years. What truly amazed me is that little had changed! If anything had changed, it was that fewer hours were needed to land a regional interview. In my day, 1987-'93, you needed at least 1500 total, 500 multi, your ATP and a recommendation to be competitive for most commuters. By 2001, those quals dropped to, at most, 1200 total and as little as 50 of multi, with a recommendation helpful but not necessary. Additionally, people ten years ago and now had/have the same concerns about career-building, training and - P-F-T - as they had ten years ago. Therefore, I feel I still understand the career-building and application process as well as anyone - because neither has changed.

Oh, and you seem to be a fan of Mesa's pilot program. Hmmm. Sir you ARE a hypocrite and you do not know what you are talking about. I would love to fly with you some day. I bet it would be fun. You are the kind of pilot who sets up for a 10 mile final at and uncontrolled field on a VFR day without using the CTAF. I bet twenty dollars flying with your negativity on board would put us over max t/o weight.

I'll see your twenty and raise you the cost of an entire P-F-T scholarship. The accusations aside, you, my friend, don't know what you are talking about.

MAPD is by no means P-F-T. Once more, you must apply a two-prong test to determine if a program is P-F-T:

(1) Must you remit money to the employer for your training as a condition of employment?

(2) Is the training specific only to that company or does it lead to a certificate, rating or other qualification that can be used elsewhere?

MAPD is a flight school. The money you pay Mesa is for training for your Commercial-Instrument-Multi and for your education leading to your A.S. at San Juan College. The Commercial-Instrument-Multi certificate is an FAA certificate that is accepted anyplace such certificates are accepted. The degree comes from a fully-accredited college. Therefore, applying the generally-accepted two-prong test, MAPD is not a P-F-T outfit. The PACE program is discussed elsewhere.

Now, if you are insinuating that all you have to do is pay MAPD, get trained, and you'll have a job waiting for you, you are way off base. For one thing, as long as you do what you're supposed to do at MAPD, you'll get a Mesa interview. Although Mesa does hire a large number of MAPD grads, hiring is not guaranteed. In fact, not all MAPD grads get interviews, nor do all who go to class finish. I do know what I am talking about here, because I was an MAPD instructor ten years ago. I had a student who had antagonized everyone with his attitude. He was permitted to finish the course, but would not be given an interview.

(By the way, regarding traffic patterns, when I first started instructing at MAPD I taught my students the standard traffic pattern that you insinuated that I do not fly. I was told by my Chief Instructor that I was to teach it the Mesa way, which was not a standard 45-degree entry but flying over the center of the runway, checking the wind, and turning either left or right downwind.)

A good comparison would be Delta Connection Academy. The main differences between it and Mesa are that it does not have a college program and that grads first must be hired as instructors and instruct for a certain period before Comair will interview them. And, many of them are not interviewed or hired.

While I never cared for Comair as a company, I never said the program is P-F-T, because it is not. Neither is Mesa.

Sorry if you think that I am a hypocrite. I would suggest that you look up the definition of "hypocrite" before rendering any characterizations. I will save you the effort of having to look up the word; here's a link to the definition from a couple of dictionaries.

 

[bigD]

Sir you ARE a hypocrite and you do not know what you are talking about. I would love to fly with you some day. I bet it would be fun. You are the kind of pilot who sets up for a 10 mile final at and uncontrolled field on a VFR day without using the CTAF. I bet twenty dollars flying with your negativity on board would put us over max t/o weight.

Russian - I'm not going to get involved in this PFT debate, but your last post prompted me to speak up. Bobby has been around here a long time, and I'd recommend that you do a search and review many of his prior posts. You'll realize that of everyone on this board, he's an exceptionally poor choice to level this kind of criticism.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobby has been around here a long time, and I'd recommend that you do a search and review many of his prior posts. You'll realize that of everyone on this board, he's an exceptionally poor choice to level this kind of criticism.

Thanks, my friend.

 

[stillaboo]

A fitting end?

I think the 'russian's real name should be 'flame bait'.

Anyone who defends PFT and then personally attacks '4500+ posts and counting Bobbysamd' is asking for a rebuke.

Seriously, there is no chance PFT will ever be condoned on this board, and, as for Bobbysamd, there is a whole thread devoted to getting him a job (something like 'get bobbyasmd flying'). He's had many a chance to put his foot in his mouth (4500+ chances, in fact), but his opinion is still valued on this board.

I can't think of a more fitting way to end a PFT thread than in defense of the guy who contributes so much to it.

 

[stillaboo]

Re: A fitting end?

I think the 'russian's real name should be 'flame bait'.

I don't have anything to add.

 

[bobbysamd]

Bobby, you stink.

I do? Maybe I was sleepwalking and only thought I took a shower this morning.

Your reputation smells of quantity instead of quality. Just because you "post" alot on this forum does not make you the most brilliant person here.

Well, I have never claimed to be a rocket scientist. I did take an online IQ test, which said I have a 126 IQ and good mathematical abilities.

Funny thing, I had poor grades in math all through school and college. Algebra with more than one unknown befuddled me, but I understood geometry alright, especially the unit on vectors. Of course, we use vectors to understand aerodynamic forces.

Since I am such a whiner and complainer, not to mention a failed job-seeker, P-F-T critic, and two-time career changer, I guess I should blame my teachers for my poor math grades instead of my lack of effort in school when I was young.

First off, GIA graduates are not guaranteed a job after the program is complete.[ Second, I was at a restaurant tonight with a MESA program flight instuctor who is now doing the PFT at GIA and told me the exact opposite that you tell everone. Mesa has a direct PFT and a CFI/degree program at differtent locations. The ones who go throught the PFT program are taking seats from your cryin' butt in the RJ at Mesa! And they only have 300 hours! Maybe you should stop defending a program you know very little about. And on top of that, you are defending a form of PFT which make you sir, a HYPOCRITE!. Your credability is now null and void. And that information comes staight from the horses mouth, not ads or rumors like you spread. Once again, you are a sad little boy who does not have a job in your "land of the autopilot".

First off, it might help if you learned how to spell "credibility." And my credibility is now null and void? Because you say so? Will I ever survive your critique of my veracity?

Sad little boy? I'm probably old enough to be your father. Also, just like you, all I ever did was flight instruct. I know nothing about autopilots except that they are there.

I do like MAPD. I do not like Mesa Airlines as a company, but I like the program because it works. I did instruct for the program for a time and taught ground school at San Juan College. But I guess that having worked for MAPD does not qualify me as being sufficiently knowledgable for your standards.

Stillaboo, the only reason PFT is not "condoned" on this forum is because less than 20 of you dont like it because there is not job for you. I guess your additude once again shows as it did in the airline interview you botched.

Hey, why don't you leave Stillaboo alone and get on my case? I had four interviews and a cattle call, and was not hired.

Next time someone posts on this thread or another, think of the fact that you are looked up to by new pilots. They tend to trust someone who puts a large number by they're total time. Even though you're answer to the question they ask may be bias, it is not always the right answer for them. Any route you take to the airline is ok, as long as you do the job right and fly safe. If you are jealous of someones route, it is most likely because you have been passed up. So YOU keep an open mind.

Read, and noted. Sticks and stones . . . .

Thanks, stillaboo, for your comments.

 

[de727ups]

report post to moderator button

I just used it for the first time here at flightinfo...perhaps something can be done about the russian.

Bobby...it would have been a pleasure to have shared a cockpit with you and I have found you to be one of the best posters around.

If you get tired of the BS at this site, come on over to jetcareers...Doug doesn't put up with stuff like this.

 

[FlyByWire74]

think of the fact that you are looked up to by new pilots. They tend to trust someone who puts a large number by they're total time.

I may have no business posting on here... but I think that is the ONLY valid thing he has said.. lol