PFT-Let it fly!

[bobbysamd]

You're welcome . . .

I still think PFT is a viable option for pilot who wants to get the experience. For certain people as described before I would recommend it.

"Talk to an experienced, non-management, pilot to find out if P-F-T is right for you. And, to thine ownself be true."

 

[pilotyip]

Non-mangement pilots

Non-management pilots do not do the hiring, if you are a PFT pilot, apply, you may get the job due to your foresight on how to get the experience and hours you needed. You must be able to fly, have a gracious personality, and a demonstrated loyalty that makes you stand out. You will get the job, PFT is not a career killer. But it will probably not get you many beers bought by your peers, if they reflect the single mindedness seen in this thread.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Non-management pilots do not do the hiring . . .

. . . but, at many places, sit on interview boards and are listened to when hiring decisions are made. And, the significant majority of them did not P-F-T, loathe P-F-T, and do not tolerate those who did/do.

f you are a PFT pilot, apply, you may get the job due to your foresight on how to get the experience and hours you needed . . . .

Bearing in mind, of course, that P-F-T is a creation of management. Why should the company have to pay to train its pilots when it can find pilots with means and/or are dough-loaded to pay for their own training?

PFT is not a career killer.

I would submit that it is. Once your P-F-T background is uncovered, the blackballs will be unleashed.

 

[pilotyip]

Not True

Not true, I will have to check our records, but I know of three PFTer's who got hired. One by Netjets and he is a Captain there, we have had one go to Spirit, we have one who flies DC-9 Capt for us, making good money. Are these jobs not sought after jobs by the pilots on this board? And PFT got them started in their careers.

 

[bobbysamd]

But what about elsewhere???

Not true, I will have to check our records, but I know of three PFTer's who got hired. One by Netjets and he is a Captain there, we have had one go to Spirit, we have one who flies DC-9 Capt for us, making good money. Are these jobs not sought after jobs by the pilots on this board? And PFT got them started in their careers.

I would submit the story is different elsewhere. You don't charge them for their training, do you?

At least TABExpressF/O can give you a call after he flies off his P-F-T hitch. Are you looking for B1900-typed pilots with 500 hours total time? He just may be your man.

(Clearly, no disrespect is intended in any way to the hundreds of 1900 captains who obtained their types the old-fashioned way, by earning them, on the company's nickel, and what I would have liked to have done, but refused to pay for.)

 

[pilotyip]

USA Jet does not PFT

I was refering to pilots who had PFT in their records when they hired on here.

 

[blade230]

Bobby,

I respect that you argue without resorting to trashing, but you are incorrect about saying the MAJORITY of senior captains loath PFT. Many, Many, sons and daughters of SENIOR pilots at majors are the ones attending these FO/PFT programs.

This is Fact.

I am related to 4 pilots who fly for majors, and am close friends with several others, and not one of them could give a flying sh*t where one comes from, as long as they are competent, and are cordial enough to sit next to for a long flight. Not to say they are supportive of PFT either, because they really don't care, either way.

But I will agree with the fact that SOME do infact loath it.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T loathers

I respect that you argue without resorting to trashing, but you are incorrect about saying the MAJORITY of senior captains loath PFT . . . .

I have just now reviewed this entire thread and nowhere could I find where I stated that "the MAJORITY of senior captains loathe P-F-T." Perhaps you misquoted what I really wrote:

Originally posted by pilotyip
Non-management pilots do not do the hiring . . .

. . . but, at many places, sit on interview boards and are listened to when hiring decisions are made. And, the significant majority of them did not P-F-T, loathe P-F-T, and do not tolerate those who did/do.

Nothing in here that I see (or said) about "senior captains."

I don't mind if you quote me; please feel free - that's what the "quote" function is for - but at least quote me accurately. I stand by my statement.

Many, Many, sons and daughters of SENIOR pilots at majors are the ones attending these FO/PFT programs.

Because many, many (but not all) SENIOR pilots at the majors live in their own little majors world and know nothing and/or forgot everything about aviation and aviation hiring outside their world. They hear "121 time" and they say great, go for it, pay for it, you need it. They do not consider that the paid-for 121 time might hurt their son or daughter sometime or someplace during an interview board or other hiring situation. Perhaps if they reflected on how the 121 time would be obtained they would give different advice.

 

[Timebuilder]

Many, Many, sons and daughters of SENIOR pilots at majors are the ones attending these FO/PFT programs.

That's probably right. The majority of such pilots? I don't think so.

There is no doubt that after many layoffs and airline business failures, some senior pilots become so embittered that they only care about getting their kid into a seat for a seniority number. Maybe the antagonism of labor relations plays a role. Maybe they just become jaded.

Maybe, they were always jerks.

 

[de727ups]

"I am related to 4 pilots who fly for majors, and am close friends with several others, and not one of them could give a flying sh*t where one comes from"

Ask your relatives and close friends if they support pilots paying for their jobs and if they support pilots being a revenue source for their company. Then ask them if they support their major airline asking for a 50K fee to build time as their F/O.

Major airline pilots that support PFT are ignorant of what it really is.

 

[pilotyip]

PFT a fact of life

It is boils down to PFT is a fact of life. It may hurt you at one of the majors, including 727ups's exclusive club, but most employers do not care how you got your time. They look for, Do you meet insurance minimums, can you fly an airplane, do you have a gracious personality, and could I stand being on the road with you for five days, you meet those requirements you have the job? You may have to suffer along for the rest of your career only making 100K per year, but someone has to pay the price for being a PFTer.

 

[pilotyip]

Definition of PFT for Bobby

Following your posted definition of PFT. Definition of PFT: Is a former Value Jet pilot who paid 10K for his job in 1996 a PFTer, because he got a DC-9 rating? How about the Net Jets pilot who paid 10K for a CE 500 rating in 1996? Or the ACA BEA-41 who paid 10K for an F/O 121 letter? Which of these well qualified pilots is a PFTer by your definition?

 

[blade230]

They are all aware of programs like Eaglejet, Alpine Air, Gulfstream, the Mesa PACE program etc. etc. etc. They know exactly what these programs offer. They still DO NOT CARE. Who do you think told me about these programs?

I frankly don't care if anybody on this website chooses to trash them, or me for our opinions. It just makes you sound ignorant for trashing somebody you don't even know. But fact is, THEY ARE pilots at MAJOR airlines with 2 of them currently sitting on interview boards at their respective airlines; one of which is constantly regarded as a HIGHLY desirable place to work, on this website that is.

I hate to inform you of this de727ups, but this is a VERY COMMON practice in Europe. It has also been very common in the US. (early 90's PFT)

I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry, just illustrating a point that not ALL pilots agree on the view points on this thread/website.

Like I said before, this also DOES NOT mean they are PRO PFT, they just won't hold it against an individual pilot who does. And rightly so.

I would personally recommend bush flying...on floats...what a fricken blast. And NO, I did not pay for that......

 

[pilotyip]

Great post!

Go for it blade you are right on, PFT is OK, it is just another option available to someone in pursuit of their career goals.

 

[T-Gates]

They are all aware of programs like Eaglejet, Alpine Air, Gulfstream, the Mesa PACE program etc. etc. etc. They know exactly what these programs offer. They still DO NOT CARE. Who do you think told me about these programs?

I frankly don't care if anybody on this website chooses to trash them, or me for our opinions. It just makes you sound ignorant for trashing somebody you don't even know. But fact is, THEY ARE pilots at MAJOR airlines with 2 of them currently sitting on interview boards at their respective airlines; one of which is constantly regarded as a HIGHLY desirable place to work, on this website that is.

I hate to inform you of this de727ups, but this is a VERY COMMON practice in Europe. It has also been very common in the US. (early 90's PFT)

I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry, just illustrating a point that not ALL pilots agree on the view points on this thread/website.

Like I said before, this also does not mean they are PRO PFT, they just won't hold it against an individual pilot who does. And rightly so.

I would personally recommend bush flying...on floats...what a fricken blast. And NO, I did not pay for that......

Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[de727ups]

PFT is bad

"I AM NOT saying it is good for the industry"

I'm glad to hear you admit that, because you are right....and it's because it's not good for the industry that I'm so against it.

By the way, I don't consider the Eaglejet and Alpine programs PFT. They are timebuilders. They take away no jobs because you sit in a seat that isn't required to be filled by a paid pilot. You aren't a required crewmember.

Thanks for the concern that I might not understand how it works in Europe. I fly 727's between Cologne and Warsaw on a regular basis. There are things about the way aviation works in Europe that I hope we don't see happen in the US. PFT is one, 300 hour co-pilots in 737's is another. ATC towers and landing fees at rural grass strips is one. $150/hr to rent a 150 is a good one. Just cause they do it in Europe is no reason to hope it happens here.

As far as the references to early 90's PFT and the common practice of guys paying for their training at the commuters. That was the way it was. Many guys had to do it, it was the common practice. I hold no grudge because of that. Now, through collective bargining and the will of professional pilots, regionals don't expect their new hires to pay 20K for their initials. It's because of the unions and collective will of professional pilots that made it so.

Gulfstream, and their PFT program, crosses the line into new territory of taking advantage of pilots. If the practice spreads into larger airlines, then you might have to PFT two or three times to get a decent job. If that's what you want, then go ahead and encourage PFT throughout the industry....why stop at Gulfstream. It sounds like USAjet is ripe to start a PFT program. Yeah...I can see it now....pay your 30K and well let you log Falcon 20 time. 50K and you can do it in a DC9....

 

[T-Gates]

Re: PFT is bad

It sounds like USAjet is ripe to start a PFT program. Yeah...I can see it now....pay your 30K and well let you log Falcon 20 time. 50K and you can do it in a DC9....

I believe pilotyip's comments came off wrong. Not that USA Jet is going to PFT, but that they have hired those that have PFT'ed elsewhere. He clarified that on another thread.

 

[de727ups]

PilotYIP...

....is management. He's anti-union and pro-PFT. USAjet could make a bundle off of PFT, just as Gulfstream and TAB express do.

I'm not saying USAjet has a PFT program......yet. I'm just looking down the road at what could happen if Gulfstream style PFT becomes the norm.

 

[blade230]

I agree with you de727ups on the fact that if all bigger carriers required PFT, it would be a problem. (would suck big time) But right now, they don't.

I disagree with you about several points though..

Gulfstream would not exist as an "airline" if it was not for their FO program. It would still be a sigle pilot 135 operation in 402's or whatever they flew back in the day. It would NEVER have required a so called "deserving" FO. Gulfstream is NO different than Eaglejet,and like companies etc etc It has become an "airline" solely because of the "success" of its FO program. I strongly disagree with seperating Gulfstream from any other "buy time" program. Gulfstream, without the FO program would move back to a single pilot 135 operation.

Another point.. "buy time" programs have been around forever, and majors HAVE NOT moved to PFT. So how can you say Gulfstream will cause this huge change in the industry, if it and other programs alike still have NOT YET caused it today? PFT IS NOT a new concept. It has not changed the way majors run their hiring departments. If it does, then you have an argument, on that issue, but it has NOT to date.

 

[T-Gates]

Re: PilotYIP...

....is management. He's anti-union and pro-PFT. USAjet could make a bundle off of PFT, just as Gulfstream and TAB express do.

I'm not saying USAjet has a PFT program......yet. I'm just looking down the road at what could happen if Gulfstream style PFT becomes the norm.

Point taken, however I doubt it. GIA has been PFT for almost 14 years. First with a company called Avtar. If it was going to catch on like wildfire, I think it would have more than one copycat (i.e. TAB)

 

[T-Gates]

Blade, sometimes I think we share a brain, it's scary.

 

[blade230]

Everybody has a right to think whatever they want. It is a free country, and a free speech website (that is the understatement of the century) People can hate PFT, love PFT, or like me, just not give a sh*t. We as pilots have enough to deal with..... like management

If you hate PFT, fine, if you have friends who are considering it, advise them against it. But why trash someone, or set a career goal to attempt to destroy someones career/lives (in an interview), just because they did something that you disagree with (PFT'd). Because PFT, as of today, has not yet changed the industry in any way for the worse, (it has not made it better either) It has not hurt, or affected you. You are acting like those f#cking terrorists who hate our life style so much, they try to hurt us. You, in a much more milder way are doing the same, you are trying to hurt someone because you disagree with them, and what they have done with THEIR life/money.

I disagree with my soon to be wife over some issues, like cauliflower, she makes me eat it, I disagree/hate it, I am not going to set out to ruin her life because of it.....

I'm done with this PFT crap, next subject...

 

[pilotyip]

USA Jet PFT?

I don't know what 727 is thinking, but PFT at USA Jet would be stupid. It would limit the pool we choose from, which would mean a decrease in quaility of the incoming pilot applicant. We pay just about the highest entry level wage for a DA-20 F/O (33K/yr) in the industry to allow us to be selective.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T defined

Following your posted definition of PFT. Definition of PFT: Is a former Value Jet pilot who paid 10K for his job in 1996 a PFTer, because he got a DC-9 rating? How about the Net Jets pilot who paid 10K for a CE 500 rating in 1996? Or the ACA BEA-41 who paid 10K for an F/O 121 letter? Which of these well qualified pilots is a PFTer by your definition?

Once more, P-F-T is an employment-employer-employee issue. If the employer requires the employee to pay for his training as a condition of employment, then a P-F-T situation exists. If employers require applicants to have type ratings along with minimum hours and other experience before they can be considered for employment, then it is not P-F-T.

You cannot argue that buying the type is P-F-T. After hire the company will still put new-hires through its initial training. You know that better than I, Yip, as a manager of your company.

Now, where and how was the Jetstream pilot required to pay for the 121 letter? At the company which hired him? If so, there you go. That is P-F-T in every way.

 

[bobbysamd]

European P-F-T?

I hate to inform you of this de727ups, but this is a VERY COMMON practice in Europe. It has also been very common in the US. (early 90's PFT)

Having instructed Alitalia students at FSI, being around other foreign airline students at the same school, being associated briefly with the JAL school in Napa, California, visiting at the ANA school in Bakersfield, having a friend work there for a few years, having been interviewed at the Lufthansa school in Phoenix and having friends who worked there, you have it all wrong. It is a situation of the airlines P-F-Ting.

Many foreign airlines seek individuals who have never been inside an airplane but have potential. They then hire them and train them. All expenses paid for these airline employees by their airlines for them to become line pilots, including room and board, flight training and per diem.

It is true that these folks hit the line at 300-500 hours. But these are quality people who have not had a moment wasted in their training and are extremely well prepared to do their jobs. And, for the most part, they are not carried along. Some might get a couple of extra training periods here and there to help them over rough spots, but they mostly have to achieve or they are gone. Compare it to military flight training. Not too many of us have qualms about putting military-trained pilots into multi-million dollar equipment at 300-500 hours, if that.

I cannot say if P-F-T as we know it could exist abroad, but the above explanation is why you see relatively low-timers in foreign airline cockpits, and is certainly not American-style P-F-T.

 

[blade230]

I am really sick of this thread, but Bobby you are incorrect, and I think you misunderstood what I was talking about.

I was NOT talking about airline cadet programs. I know all about them. I have family members at both Cathay, and JAL (mainline, not Jalways contract). And one of them started as a cadet pilot, he is now a Captain with a flawless training record, and thousands (not too far from 10) of hours. I myself, thought about trying that route. In the end, I did not apply, stayed home for a while.. I was not quite considered fluent by the respective airline for their standards. Gotta brush up on the parents language if you know what I mean.

Go to the Eagle jet website, just look at the requirements of some of their programs, JAA ratings required, last time I checked, those were European ratings. better yet, CALL them and ASK if a major portion of their students have been Europeans in the past. Call, or look up a company called ASG jet, that operates out of Amsterdam or somewhere like that, they put foreign PFT pilots into corporate jets right here in the US. They also do JAA-to FAA convertions for their Euro pilots. They sell 1000 hour blocks or some large number. Gulfstream used to cater to many foreign students before 9-11. Another company in Eastern Europe, which also requires JAA ratings, sells time in CRJ's. They can be found on the internet. There is some company here in the US that sells 727 time, also a achool that does JAA training. Read about that in the new issue of "Flying", look for shiny picture of a new Eagle ERJ on the add.

All this info can be found in the Flight Internatioanal magazine, which is a BRITISH Aerospace magazine that I subscribe to. All the many advertisements are in the back in the classified sections

Many of these programs are selling time in big, heavy, some times 3 crew jets, not small quasi single pilot B 1900's.

Once again, like de727ups said, I am not saying that their way should become our way, but it is VERY common practice over there, as is buying type ratings.

 

[blablabla]

This is one long thread, I don't even care about the content, I just wanted to make it longer

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby?

Valuejet required you to give them 10K to get the job, but you got a DC-9 type out of the training at FSI, was that PFT? Looking at your definition of you paid, but got soemthing that was an approaved rating.

 

[bobbysamd]

Valuejet

Valuejet required you to give them 10K to get the job, but you got a DC-9 type out of the training at FSI, was that PFT? Looking at your definition of you paid, but got soemthing that was an approaved rating.

There are all kinds of deals like that. Some outfit in Las Vegas advertised for FOs, and required them as a condition of employment to earn their types at its approved vendor. That is P-F-T.

What if I already have a DC-9 type? Will Valuejet hire me? Or will Valuejet still charge me $10K for P-F-T at Flightsafety? That would be P-F-T.

Since Valuejet required remitting of $10K to be hired, the haves and have-nots were easily separated. A job resulted from the $10K payment. P-F-T is about buying a job. Therefore, relying only on your representations, that would be P-F-T. I'm sure there's more on that story.

 

[de727ups]

Blade230

"Gulfstream would not exist as an "airline" if it was not for their FO program. It would still be a sigle pilot 135 operation in 402's or whatever they flew back in the day."

So, what you are saying is that the Gulfstream timebuilders provide such a revenue enhancement for the operation that Gulfstream can afford to operate Beech 1900's under part 121 instead of 402's under 135? I find that hard to believe.