PFT-Let it fly!

[bobbysamd]

Forms of dice-throwing

If one man were at a point in his career 1500hrs and wanted make a step-up. So he opped to pay for his Type on the 737 to interview with SW.

The fact that you need 2500 total min (I believe) to interview with Southwest notwithstanding, this not P-F-T. You are rolling the dice on $8K that you will get a Southwest interview. Having said that, once you get the type, the type is on your certificate forever. It is yours. You can market it to anyone who seeks a 737-typed pilot. Southwest is the best known operator who wants 737-rated pilots, but I would guess that plenty of others, including foreign carriers, like them, too. It's been nine years since I've seen a Flight Crews International newsletter, but I remember that Captain Mac listed a number of foreign operators who wanted 737 pilots. I doubt things have not changed much in nine years.

Another with 250hrs but with the same goals, and decided to pay for 2weeks systems, 2weeks OM, 2weeks CPT, 121 signoffs, and get 250hrs of turbine time. Thats all no more no less.

Assuming no P-F-T "upside," you are rolling the dice that your training will give you a leg up on others. There are just too many people with the experience companies want who've gained it through real employment. You stand a good chance of crapping out - and not succeeding with cutting in line.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Your company doesn't want you or your skills/judgement, they just want your money.

That's a major truism of P-F-T. The only qualifier for a P-F-T "job" is the size of your checkbook.

P-F-T is an insult to career pilots. After working hard to build my skills and quals and concluding that the only way I would be hired at the regionals is if I P-F-T'd, I opted out. To thine ownself be true.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

I apologize for the name-calling. I have actually felt bad about it since I posted.

I think I may need help with my message board habit.

 

[cdog]

Bobbysamd:
Cpt. Mac of "Flight Crew International " retired. I think that unfortunately, the Newsletter is discountinued.

 

[TankCommander]

Whore (hor) n. Harlot; prostitute; v.i. to have unlawful sexual intercourse.

Ah, to be so lucky. I had to look it up, because I thought maybe there was another meaning to this word that I was unaware of. A whore receives money for sexual favors. The closest thing that I can think of in the context that you use it is called an employee. Stop using big 5 letter words to insult people. Try four letters two word with a hyphen, like bone-head. It can be used in any sentence to describe any one, like you.

I got a great idea! Once you finish your PPL the FAA should give you a seniority number to be hired by the airlines. That would keep people from cutting in line. That goes against everything this country stands for. What you are talking about is call Socialism. I’ve lived in a few of those countries, they suck! Flying skills? You’re flying a BE1900D, 19 pass, Right traffic for 9R KMIA, cleared for the visual from 8000ft and you are just abreast the numbers “Can you go to the numbers Sir? I have a 737 on a five mile final”. Ya, I got skills. I would not get in a C-172 without getting chk-out first. That would be stupid.

http://www.vaxxine.com/aviation/rats.htm

I posted this link for others to read the other day. The writing is on the wall. We can either read it or go with the trends of the industry or we can all sit on Internet and talk about how messed up the industry is. I don’t make the rules or set hiring trends. I do try and stay informed of them. Since January of 2002 I have watched 161 First Officers leave GIA after their 250hrs and go to NW Airlink. This is not here-say or rumor. I watched it happen. I started working on my ratings in Jan 2002 and was there for the first set of interviews. Out of 82 interviewed 60 were hired. All 60 passed the CRJ program at Airlink. Better then the 24% fail rate they were seeing hiring off the street. That’s money out of the airlines pocket when someone washes out. They have better things to do with their money, like give themselves bonuses. For anybody who is not familiar with FAR121 training standards let me give you a quick run down:

1. 2 weeks OM (Operations Manual). A fire hose on knowledge is shoved down your throat and turned on high. Written exam. 80% to pass. You sit in class all day. After class you are mentally exhausted. You go home sleep till 8 and study till 1am. Just tell the wife it will be over soon.
2. 2 weeks Systems. Whatever planes you are training to fly. All class room. Elec., Hyd., Fuel., Emerge. Proc., etc… Written exam, 80% to pass.
3. 2 weeks CPT training and to get ready for the oral with an Airline Chk Airman.
4. 2 weeks full motion sim 85% Ckh ride and you must pass it, some don’t.
5. 1 flight to be signed off for your 15%
6. Fly with OIE Capt for min of 20hrs.

This is a lot to digest for some one off the street who was flying a small twin. GIA gives the above standards. NW United SW etc.. give you 1 week of each block. Fail any of the above and you’re out the door. I believe and someone can correct me passing grade on written exams are 90%. Last thing anyone of us want is to go to an interview and tell the interviewer that last month you fail basic in doc for ****airlines. Your career is all but over in 121. Why the attraction to military pilots? Not for there large amount of hours flown, but there shown ability to pass a complex flight training program. You would be surprised at how many hours a 25-year-old LT has that are landing a plane on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Someone said on one of these threads “Flying is not a rocket science”

Why the 500hr flow-through guy? He’s 121 trained proving he can pass a complex training program. He has low hours and is going to be sitting in the right seat for 1000-3000 hours depending on upgrade time. More likely not using the reg. To step-up to the majors. FAA has shown accident statistics that low time on any type rating is the biggest factor. Not over-all flight time, I.e. The more time you have sitting in the right seat of what ever plane you fly the better off you are. Bad habits and the “well this the way I do it attitude”. At the rifle range, if I asked a new PVT. Have you ever fired a weapon before, and he tells me,”oh ya, been squirrel hunten since I was a boy.” I new it was going to be along day at the range. One that said he had never fired a weapon was easy to train.

I do not profess to have all the answers. But I do know what is working in the job market, because I watch it.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Again I apologize for my "whore" remark. I realize that kind of name-calling is not conducive to a meaningfull discusion.

If I may ask... What do you pay for this program?

 

[TankCommander]

Sctt@NJA
Sorry I didn't see your last post before I posted today.
Beer......

 

[bobbysamd]

Captain Mac - thread creep (sorry)

Cpt. Mac of "Flight Crew International " retired. I think that unfortunately, the Newsletter is discountinued.

I know. Captain McNicol retired last year and guess who purchased his business? None other than the Pied Piper of the Pilot Shortage - and you know which United captain he is!

Too bad. Captain Mac was one of few real gentlemen you find in this business. He was a terrific resource. I remember coming out to LA a couple of times. I called ahead and told him I was coming. He met with me twice and took me out to lunch one of those times. Captain Mac was always very positive and encouraging. I hope he's enjoying his retirement.

 

[bobbysamd]

Gulfstream P-F-T refunds

All 60 passed the CRJ program at Airlink. Better then the 24% fail rate they were seeing hiring off the street. That’s money out of the airlines pocket when someone washes out. They have better things to do with their money, like give themselves bonuses . . . .

. . . out of P-F-T training fees, no doubt.

For those who are not familiar with business, crew training is an expense of doing business. Expenses reduce your gross income. Your business pays income tax on your net income. Saying that they have better things to do with their money than to train their pilots is a red herring.

For anybody who is not familiar with FAR121 training standards . . . . This is a lot to digest for some one off the street who was flying a small twin . . . . Fail any of the above and you’re out the door.

And what about your up-front P-F-T fee? I understand that you pay a deposit and the rest on your first or second day of class. Any refunds, pro rata or otherwise? Are the refunds cheerfully refunded or is legal intervention needed to recover them?

Thanks for posting the link to the R.A.T.S. symposium. "Rats" is highly appropriate.

 

[great cornholio]

stillaboo

When I got hired at my current job we had an ex-Gulfstream guy in the class and he was all excited because he finally got the jump seat privs. He said that GIA guys dont get j/s cause 2 GIA F/Os apparently fought over one back in the day. Dunno how true that part of the story is, but he said they definatley dont get j/s privs.

 

[de727ups]

Tank Commander

Here are a few reasons I'm against Gulfstream and PFT.

1) No matter how great your Gulfstream training is. I don't believe 250 hour pilots should be in the right seat of a jet. At 250 hours, you have so little real world experience that you'll be a liability to the Capts you fly with. Sure you can sit through 121 initial and sit in the right seat of a 1900 for a few hours. That doesn't prepare you to be a jet F/O at 250 hours. Sure you can get through the sim ride, oral, and even IOE, with the right check airman. But that's a far cry from being a competent F/O....an asset to your Capt. I've been through this sort of training more than once and I can tell you there is a big difference between the training environment and the line.

You will make the argument that "the military does it" Yeah, they do it in the military but those guys go through much more difficult training and selection processes.

2) It lowers the bar for the profession. Management has pilots paying to sit in a seat that traditionally is a paid position. You are helping management degrade the career when you PFT.

3) If PFT is allowed to, or does, expand beyond a few regional airlines, a situation could be created where you have to pay for your job at a larger airline. I can see management at the majors hoping that this catches on to the point they can get away with making new hires pay for training on an Airbus and then pay to sit in the right seat for 200 hours before you get the job. Casino Express used to have a deal like this....you could buy right seat time in a 737 and gain 121 F/O experience...for a price.

Hey....I got mine....I'm number 863 at UPS. PFT won't directly effect me one way or another. I just hate to see the profession going down the crapper for the young guys and PFT airlines taking advantage of the situation.

 

[SierraPilot]

For those of you who against PFT in any way, shape, or form as you believe it hurts the 121 airline industry, which is debatable... I really wonder if you guys would be preching as much if places like Gulfstream Academy, etc didnt exist and these places like Gulfstream Academy were just some small 135 ops conducting PFT operations... If some small no-name part 135 op was conducting PFT would you even care? I doubt it..

What makes PFT attractive is the fact that you dont have to pay 700 a hr for turbine time, and while most of you might believe pilots do it to cut in line or steal jobs from displaced pilots or CFI's.. there are those who look at it as a way to build quality turbine time to be more competitive in a very competitive airline market.

What makes PFT possible is that you can get turbine time for around 100 a hr as the passengers offset the cost, which otherwise would of costed the pilot alot more to obtain by just renting the plane straight-out. Do I think PFT belongs in a 121 op? The jury is still out.. however I think PFT does have a place in aviation.

While personally I'd rather rent some turbine time from my own school, its just not economically possible for most schools to do, unless the cost can be offset somehow.

Any of you anti-PFT people care to comment?

Ryan

 

[Sctt@NJA]

There is no need to buy turbine time. Regionals and commuters will pay you to aquire turbine time.

135 charter companies will pay you while you accumulate turbine time.

I had all of 6 hours piston multi time when I got hired as an "FO" on the Cheyenne II. Debates about how to log that time asside, it lead to being captain in 6 months. Getting paid all the while.

By buying that kind of time it seems like a guy would be "giving up" and admitting that he can't find a similiar job that would pay him.

If you want to rent a turbine airplane (if you even can) thats fine. But if a company is flying pax or cargo for $ and need or want a 2 pilot crew- make em pay ya!

 

[stillaboo]

Out of 82 interviewed 60 were hired. All 60 passed the CRJ program at Airlink. Better then the 24% fail rate they were seeing hiring off the street.

It should be pointed out that 27% of the GIA FO's failed the interview, though. Want to know what's worse than failing out of a 121 indoc (nobody fails indoc, BTW, they fail the GS occasionally and the sim alot), not getting hired and being unqualified for any other 121 job. Most guys who don't get hired at XXX simply end up getting hired somewhere else, b/c they are qualified to meet the mins at XXX's competition. GIA grads are not. That's something to think about before starting GIA.

For anybody who is not familiar with FAR121 training standards let me give you a quick run down:

1. 2 weeks OM (Operations Manual).
2. 2 weeks Systems
3. 2 weeks CPT training and to get ready for the oral.
4. 2 weeks full motion sim 85% Ckh ride and you must pass it, some don’t.
5. 1 flight to be signed off for your 15%
6. Fly with OIE Capt for min of 20hrs.

GIA gives the above standards. NW United SW etc.. give you 1 week of each block.

2 weeks for OM! 2 weeks CPT! A second sim if you fail the first one ("1 flight to be signed off for your 15%") as standard policy! Man, I got news for you, TC - NW, UA, WN aren't the only ones who don't give you this much time to learn. (I had 1 week OM and 2 days CPT before my oral). These # posted don't help your cause of 'GIA pilots are equal to the rest of their 121 bretheren' IMO. And don't you do consolidation at GIA (100 hrs. w/in 120 days of your sim ride, I think)?

FAA has shown accident statistics that low time on any type rating is the biggest factor.

Ok, so then how could someone possibly argue that taking a GIA flight with a PFT FO is a good idea? Can you name any other airline where I'm virtually guaranteed that at least 50% of the crew is 'low time in type'? (FYI, even at 250 hours in type, you would still fit in this category)

Just wanted to point out that just b/c GIA does it doesn't mean that that's how others do it too, necessarily (and some falicies in your reasoning as I see it).

----
BTW, for Sct@NJA and TC, you can 'edit' your posts to remove references to whores and the like and send the appologies as a PM. PFT discussions can get heated sometimes .

 

[Timebuilder]

Any of you anti-PFT people care to comment?

The above post from Sctt is a good summantion. I'm not involved in 121, and I never have been. I'm still very much against PFT.

If you can't compete for a rudimentary turbine job with the other piston-twin types, then you probably shouldn't be in a turbine aircraft at all. The simple definition of a JOB means that you get paid to provide a service, not pay someone for training that by every ethical standard should be paid by the carrier. Passengers offset the cost? Passengers have a right to expect that the entire crew is a group of professionals, fully trained full-time employees, not aspiring newbies paying to sit in a seat so they can say "I did this" in their logbook.

If you participate in PFT your are acting as an enabler of a scumbag operation. In order to compete with the scumbag, others may try to replicate his cost structure by imitating his PFT scheme. Only by pilots refusing to take part in this can we eliminate PFT from aviation. In order to help pilots to avoid PFT, we must do two things: increase awareness about the problem, and also give PFT a real "downside" by not giving the PFT pilot a "free pass" by giving him equal standing in hiring. If pilots don't get hired who engage in PFT, word will spread and it will soon die out.

Many will not have the intestinal fortitude to avoid PFT. For them , I recommend a career in landscaping.

 

[stillaboo]

there are those who look at it as a way to build quality turbine time to be more competitive in a very competitive airline market.

Sure, it's quality time. But it's 250 hours! 250 hours of anything isn't going to help you (Maybe 250 hours of Shuttle time would ), especially when the time will go stale if you aren't hired immediatley by someone else. And with around 500 TT you won't be hired 121 anywhere (flow thorugh's from GIA to 9E being the exception) unless you came from an in-house flight training program, so the time WILL go stale, especially in this market.

 

[s3jetman]

I got just one thing to say about PFT and everone who has replied


Did you guys see that game on Monday between the Cowboys and Giants?

One hell of a good game!!!

Much more exciting than reading everyone bitch about PFT

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Fictional story of Bruce and Tom, college buddies thinking of starting an airline.

Bruce: I have been running the numbers. To many expenses! Its gonna be hard to make a profit.

Tom: Well, I have an idea about that... What if we don't pay our FOs?

Bruce: That would be awesome. But why would anyone work for free?

Tom: Because new pilots are desperate for flight time. We could tell them they are getting a heck of a deal getting free flight time!

Bruce: Hahaha come on. No one would fall for that.

Tom: I betcha they would. In fact I bet we could get them to pay US.

Bruce: Thats just crazy. It sure would rock though. But these guys would have to be real low time right? I mean to be so desperate. Wouldn't it be unsafe to have these guys flying our pax around?

Tom: Naw. I mean we still have to put them through training, so they might have at least a tiny clue about whats going on. But really, these sorts of airplanes are flown single pilot in the corporate world all the time. Just have to make sure our captains are sharp.

Bruce: What about the pax? Don't you think they would worry knowing that one of the pilots up front is essentially a "student" who was "hired" with qualifications far below industry standards?

Tom: Who says the pax will know? They will see two pilots in official looking uniforms and assume they are both highly paid proffesionals! (Laughter)

Bruce: (Laughter)

Thus the birth of an aviation bottom-feeder. Anyone who wants to be taken for a ride by Bruce and Tom be my guest.

 

[stillaboo]

Did you guys see that game on Monday between the Cowboys and Giants?

No, I was arguing with a GIA PFT FO! One heck of an arguement, I tell ya', much better than reading this football crap!

Thanks for the perspective, s3.

 

[SierraPilot]

No, I was arguing with a GIA PFT FO!

Excuse me?! I havent been to GIA nor do I have any plans at the moment to do so and I havent paid anyone for a FO slot nor am I going through some ab-inito program, so get your facts straight before you go around bashing people.. we can agree to disagree on the value of PFT, and while scott makes a good point, I doubt that 2 small airlines are capable of hurting the entire airline industry, and while you may say that airlines frown down upon PFT.. the fact remains if they did as people claim.. the hire rate out of these programs would be 0%, which obviously is not the case..

If your asking yourself why do I care about PFT?... well I happen to know people who have no interest in pursuing the CFI route nor do I think they should if they have no interest in teaching and doing their students a disservice by doing so.. To me this whole PFT discussion is just more hype then facts.. which none of you can prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt.. hell your case wouldnt hold any water in a court of law.. and before I get any smart@ss comments from people like stillaboo (which is very mature.. grow up), I dont have any plans to goto GIA.

Ryan