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PFT-Let it fly!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Dean
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I see PFT like this... here are my analogies, none of them perfectly accurate, but close enough.


You have a heart condition that requires surgery. The hospital you are in needs a new heart surgeon (the old one moved on to brains). They have two applicants. Both surgeons have full medical degrees that legally allow them to do the surgery, for which both doctors paid for themselves by going to college. One of whom has performed 50 surgerys over the past 5 years. The other is a brand new graduate who offers to pay the hospital $20K to get the job. Which doctor do you want operating on you?

I am a real estate developer who needs a new skyscaper built. My company policy is that the architecht has to have built at least one 500' tall building on their resume to be considered. Two applicants submit their work history. One of them, who paid for his degree, has been designing buildings for 3 years, working his way up to larger jobs, has done 25 designs, and recently completed one over 500' tall. The other also paid for his BS in architecture, but used his trust fund to design his first and only building that was 500' tall. Which one would you prefer do your design?

While it's certainly possible for the person who paid his way to the qualifications (above and beyond the minimum degree required to even be licensed, which ALL applicants do as a minimum) to be truly the better candidate for the task at hand, the applicant who has garnered much more real life experience, who has earned the experience by being the best person for the jobs he got and not simply by meeting the financial status, is most likely the one who is better qualified.


All civilian pilots pay for their first 250 some hours of training. not all those first 250 hours are equal though. Some are done in perfect weather, at a tiny airstrip with no other traffic, in a very reliable airplane. Some others are mostly IFR or MVFR, in crowded airspace, over mountains, in ice, using crummy old planes that have broken down several times. I simply don't believe that the pilot 500 hour who buys 250 hours in a BE1900 can consistently claim to have better experience than the CFI who has 1200 hours in a 172 and 100 in a Dutchess, when that CFI has seen every possible weather condition, flown in ice, over mountains, had electrical failures, engine failures, Vaccum failures in IMC, and whatever else you can dream up. It's possible for one 500 hour PFT'r to be widely experienced and a real good pilot. It's possibly that a 1500 hour CFI has done little else but touch and goes at Podunk. But based on what I've learned so far, the CFI who has put his neck on the line training new pilots for 3 years, is the one I'd go with over the guy who paid to tag along in a Turbo Prop while someone else did all the work.

It's possible for a real good experienced pilot to PFT. But I can't see a 500 hour pilot who PFTs being worthy of any job like that, other than towing banners. Certainly nothing with passengers involved.
 
UMich affirmative action

Timebuilder said:
I found it interesting that the court found that among equally qualifed law school applicants, race could be considered as a factor, but the point system used by the undergraduate program was struck down.

What will the replacement undergrad system be?
Dunno. Haven't heard.
 
All civilian pilots pay for their first 250 some hours of training. not all those first 250 hours are equal though. Some are done in perfect weather, at a tiny airstrip with no other traffic, in a very reliable airplane. Some others are mostly IFR or MVFR, in crowded airspace, over mountains, in ice, using crummy old planes that have broken down several times. I simply don't believe that the pilot 500 hour who buys 250 hours in a BE1900 can consistently claim to have better experience than the CFI who has 1200 hours in a 172 and 100 in a Dutchess, when that CFI has seen every possible weather condition, flown in ice, over mountains, had electrical failures, engine failures, Vaccum failures in IMC, and whatever else you can dream up. It's possible for one 500 hour PFT'r to be widely experienced and a real good pilot. It's possibly that a 1500 hour CFI has done little else but touch and goes at Podunk. But based on what I've learned so far, the CFI who has put his neck on the line training new pilots for 3 years, is the one I'd go with over the guy who paid to tag along in a Turbo Prop while someone else did all the work.

If a CFI had all the experience you just mentioned, I'd say he or she is a risk taker and would not fly with that person.

I have flown with CFI's and 250hr pilots that adapt quickly and I am actually impressed on how fast they become a functional crewmember in a regional airline. Unfortunately they are rare.

More than half of the FO's that I have flown with CFI experience have to be coached on how to communicate with ATC, read weather data and even navigate. So I still do all the work day or night rain or shine.

So just because a CFI sticks his neck out flying in your aforementioned conditions does not make him any better than the 250hr newbie that did not go through the CFI route.

IMHO

Fly Safe!:D
 
B190Captain said:
If a CFI had all the experience you just mentioned, I'd say he or she is a risk taker and would not fly with that person.

I have flown with CFI's and 250hr pilots that adapt quickly and I am actually impressed on how fast they become a functional crewmember in a regional airline. Unfortunately they are rare.

More than half of the FO's that I have flown with CFI experience have to be coached on how to communicate with ATC, read weather data and even navigate. So I still do all the work day or night rain or shine.

So just because a CFI sticks his neck out flying in your aforementioned conditions does not make him any better than the 250hr newbie that did not go through the CFI route.

IMHO

Fly Safe!:D

Isn't that essentially what I just said? That some CFI's can be short on real life experience and some 250 hr PFT'rs can actually be good pilots. But the reality is that the opposite is usually true for both cases. (Usually, not always)

So an experienced CFI is a Risk taker? Oh please! Yeah, I suppose if they experienced all those things in one flight, I'd say they were doing something wrong, of course. But all the mechanical problems aren't the result of being a risk taker, it's the nature of flying small training aircraft a lot. Flying over mountains doesn't automatically make a CFI a risk taker, or anyone else, if it's done properly. My private CFI got caught in ice once on a return from an IFR long cross country. That also doesn't make him a risk taker, ATC just wanted him to go a lot higher than his MEA and than he had filed or expected. He handled the situation properly, got out of the icing conditions, and returned safely.

I myself have about 275 hours total, but I have had a single engine failure on takoff at 50' AGL and I'm here to tell about it, and it didn' happen because I took risks. I can communicate well in any ATC environment, I'm comortable in busy Bravo airspace, I can read all the weather charts, whatever you need. Sure, I lack experience in other things, but I have no intention of getting myself involved in situations that are beyond my skill level, at this point. But it sounds to me like the problems you've experienced with these amateur FO's is more your company's method of interviewing and screening, rather than the overall proficiency of the CFI in general. How do these pilots get hired by your company in the first place? And which airline is it, so I can apply there myself :D You won't have to coach me on reading a Constant Pressure Analysis Chart or a High Level Sig WX prog chart either LOL
 
So just because a CFI sticks his neck out flying in your aforementioned conditions does not make him any better than the 250hr newbie that did not go through the CFI route.

I disagree. I learned so much more about flying when I was responsible for teaching that knowlege to someone else.


If the FO's at your regional are a constant thorn in your side, then I can see why you have such a low opinon of CFI's. I would, too.

A good point was raised , you know. This sounds like your company is having a problem recruiting (and training?) a good quality applicant. Since I couldn't even speculate as to who I think this might be, I'd sugggest that you do whatever you can to change this. There are many qualified and experienced pilots out there in need of a job. Not me: as soon as I am typed and have a fresh 8410 I should be working again. :) I mean the many thousands of other pilots who need a break right now.


Maybe the issue is pay, and your management doesn't want to raise wages in order to attract a better applicant. Maybe it's something else. I can only make the observation that I was comfortable in class B when I was a new commercial pilot, and as a CFI I was teaching a college credit course that included weather charts and navigation. Every pilot has different skills.

Overall, I'd still place my safety in the hands of an experienced CFI over someone who purchased a job for a couple of hundred hours.
 
Timebuilder said:
I disagree. I learned so much more about flying when I was responsible for teaching that knowlege to someone else.


If the FO's at your regional are a constant thorn in your side, then I can see why you have such a low opinon of CFI's. I would, too.

A good point was raised , you know. This sounds like your company is having a problem recruiting (and training?) a good quality applicant. Since I couldn't even speculate as to who I think this might be, I'd sugggest that you do whatever you can to change this. There are many qualified and experienced pilots out there in need of a job. Not me: as soon as I am typed and have a fresh 8410 I should be working again. :) I mean the many thousands of other pilots who need a break right now.


Maybe the issue is pay, and your management doesn't want to raise wages in order to attract a better applicant. Maybe it's something else. I can only make the observation that I was comfortable in class B when I was a new commercial pilot, and as a CFI I was teaching a college credit course that included weather charts and navigation. Every pilot has different skills.

Overall, I'd still place my safety in the hands of an experienced CFI over someone who purchased a job for a couple of hundred hours.


I did not say all of the FO's I fly with are like the way I described.
I have flown with FO's that have shown true professionalism and judgement and deserve to sit in that seat. We hire FO's that have truly demonstrated their abilities and are not thorns.

I am just pointing out that all CFI's are not what people on this board build them up to be. They maybe great instructors at their local FBO but in a regional 121 environment they are no different than a 250/hr Commercial Pilot for the most part.

IMHO.:D
 
If the crux of this has become a question of ALL CFI's being the cream of the crop for an FO position, then no, that isn't the case.

What I am saying is that the VAST MAJORITY of CFI's are more qualified than a 250 hour PFT pilot who buys some time to work the radio and gear handle in a 1900. Seriously, people, we're are talking about what, three months of 121 flying?
 
Timebuilder said:
If the crux of this has become a question of ALL CFI's being the cream of the crop for an FO position, then no, that isn't the case.

What I am saying is that the VAST MAJORITY of CFI's are more qualified than a 250 hour PFT pilot who buys some time to work the radio and gear handle in a 1900. Seriously, people, we're are talking about what, three months of 121 flying?

Like I said, based on my experience with both CFI's and non-CFI's, I disagree.


Fly Safe:D
 
B190, do you work for GS? A simple yes, no, or NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS would work fine for me.

I ask b/c most guys don't have experience flying with 250 hr FO's, other than at a couple companies. If you do work GS and want to elaborate, I'd love to know how many of the PFT'r guys end up getting hired at GS as FOs.

Thanks!

-Boo!
 
stillaboo said:
B190, do you work for GS? A simple yes, no, or NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS would work fine for me.

I ask b/c most guys don't have experience flying with 250 hr FO's, other than at a couple companies. If you do work GS and want to elaborate, I'd love to know how many of the PFT'r guys end up getting hired at GS as FOs.

Thanks!

-Boo!

Yes I do work for GS. In the past, a large number of competent FO's got hired. It recent years obviously the hiring had slowed down or even come to a halt. Depending on how many more pilots we lose to other companies or how many more upgrade, the hiring will resume.
 
A couple more questions then

B190Captain said:
It recent years obviously the hiring had slowed down or even come to a halt.

Since the FO's aren't being hired, but rather replaced with new blood (am I wrong on this?), what are most of the post-contract FO's doing once their contract with GS expires? Get their CFI and teach, getting hired for KingAir 135 jobs, flying checks, etc?

Is there more supply for Gulfstream contract FO's than there are seats available (aka, are the GS FO's flying beyond their 250 hour contract b/c of a lack of applicants)?

Thanks for the info, B190.

-Boo!
 
Re: A couple more questions then

stillaboo said:
Since the FO's aren't being hired, but rather replaced with new blood (am I wrong on this?), what are most of the post-contract FO's doing once their contract with GS expires?

Most of them are coming to Pinnacle, but some are going to Colgan or other airlines. Only a handful are not getting work after leaving GIA. Of course, I don't know what is going to happen when Pinnacle doesn't need any more FOs. I've heard that GIA is trying to work a deal with Chit-taco to send people there also.
 
Re: A couple more questions then

stillaboo said:
Since the FO's aren't being hired, but rather replaced with new blood (am I wrong on this?), what are most of the post-contract FO's doing once their contract with GS expires? Get their CFI and teach, getting hired for KingAir 135 jobs, flying checks, etc?

Is there more supply for Gulfstream contract FO's than there are seats available (aka, are the GS FO's flying beyond their 250 hour contract b/c of a lack of applicants)?

Thanks for the info, B190.

-Boo!

Some already have their CFI's and they do look for employment teaching. Some go to Pinnacle, corporate etc.. There have been no FO's that are part of the program that fly beyond the 250 unless hired by the company.

Some express interest in staying with GS and they have to acquire at leat 3 letters of recommendation from Captains that they have flown with.

They are later interviewed for hire or placed in a pool until they are needed. In recent months 6 FO's were upgraded and looks like 6 more will be upgraded in the near future. Whether that will open some slots for FO's, I don't know for sure. I would hope so.

As for the Chautauqua deal, that is news to me.

Fly Safe!!
 
A good point was raised , you know. This sounds like your company is having a problem recruiting (and training?) a good quality applicant. Since I couldn't even speculate as to who I think this might be, I'd sugggest that you do whatever you can to change this.

Little did I know that your company wasn't recruiting at all, in the conventional sense.

Recruiting means seeking out qualified people and training them, at your expense, to a level appropriate to begin their IOE and paying them a salary that is competitive with the industry.

The problem is one of the business model: the selling of pilot positions. Who is this a problem for? Every pilot who has followed the established pattern of training and experience, and every qualified pilot who needs a job.
 

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