PFT-Let it fly!

[bobbysamd]

Non sequitors

Status in life and how one achieved this point seems to be a real concern for the ANTI-PFT crowd, but I find it ironic that "most" of these people are PRO-UNION, and which is usually represented by the Left side of the politcal fence. The same side of the fence that supports Affirmative action. Which all leads down to the ultimate cutting in line issue.

You have strung together several non sequitors, not to mention absolutes.

I am sure that if you would review more posts on the board that you would find a great deal of opposition to how affirmative action operates in aviation. Read up on the dislike so many people have for the 300-hour hires at United Airlines. Most of these folks are affirmative action hires. Those who oppose that form of affirmative action tend to oppose P-F-T.

These same people are generally staunch unionists. And, they are not bleeding-heart left-wingers, as you portray. Pilot unions exist because aviation management historically has been at loggerheads with pilots. Management and pilots have historically been at odds about safety issues, rules, and pay, or lack thereof. Pilot unions at least attempt to make management play fair. I don't claim to understand the RJDC controversy, but I would happily bet a dollar to your dime that management is chortling over the divide among pilots on this issue.

Suggested reading would be both volumes of Flying the Line by George Hopkins. In particular, read in Volume I about E.L. Cord and his dealings with pilots, putting yourself in the pilots' perspective. After all, you're considering the career, aren't you?

Finally, read this thread from last year for a good discussion about pilot unions pro and con.

PS-You're still in college. May I suggest you take as an elective(s) a course in something like American Labor Movement or Trade Unionism? If you can put your anti-union prejudice aside, the knowlege gained may very well be valuable to you as a professional pilot.

 

[B190Captain]

Re: P-F-T

So, you like people who butt in ahead of you in line? How did you like it the last time someone cut in ahead of you on final?

Probably the one cutting in front of me on final is the CFI with his student.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

Sure,

Not to knock low time pilots, because we were all there once. But, the original post by a 40 hour private pilot kind of speaks for itself.

Kind of like when I have 30 hour pilot argue with me on how to use a VOR.

They'll learn. The statment that "how many times do you have to teach someone how to recover from a stall" I know is making every CFI smile a little.

 

[Timebuilder]

I'm reminded of the time I had a student approach me to go up and help him prepare for his checkride. He hadn't flown in a couple of months, and his friend, a fellow MD, had recommended me.

This doc's problem was steep turns.

It took two hours, but he finally had the old light bulb go on about the need to use back pressure and trim to make the maneuver a turn, and not a steep spiral!!!

I almost got dizzy myself. I can't imagine what it looked like on the approach radar: "Hey, Bob, is 38E a helo?"

"naw, just another steep turns student."

Working as a CFI can also tax your creative abilities, but that's for another thread.

I learned a lot as an instructor, that's for sure!

 

[skymonkey007]

All I know is that I paid alot of hard earned money and hours of studying to get me a commercial license so I could get PAID to fly planes, not PAY to fly. Im new to the PFT discussion, I only have limited knowlege of the subject. But from what Ive heard, it does seem like they are trying to bypass the system here. I do agree though, when it comes to when im a passenger on a flight, I dont care how they got there, just as long as they know what theyre doing. So go ahead and do what you gotta do, but I know im staying away from the any PFT, Ill CFI.



P.S. Doesnt anyone love flying aside from money? Sure you gotta support a family, but I got into this as a profession because I get a natural High when im in a plane, and alot of you seem like its the cause of all your nightmares!

 

[Timebuilder]

I do agree though, when it comes to when im a passenger on a flight, I dont care how they got there, just as long as they know what theyre doing.

What's the likelihood that they are the best qualified pilot for you and you family's safety if they are PAYING for the privilege instead of competing for it based on experience?

 

[skymonkey007]

Very true, very true..... Didnt quite think of that one. Good point Timebuilder

 

[stlpilot]

Lots of good points here made and I only read the first page so my apologies if I’m repeating others.

Well I’m not all that familiar with PFT although the only two guys I know that did it were blundering idiots. Of course that was genetics mostly at fault. Don’t get me started. One of them was a CFI at the flight school I worked at and before I made Assistant Chief I knew he was trouble from the beginning. He went to one of those one week CFI courses, so in other words he knew very little and wasted his students money to gain experience, which was also a joke. But again this may not apply to your situation I’m just giving you my background experience. I think Dean you miss a few points you may never understand b/c you have not had the experience of being a CFI. No matter how smart you are, or how much someone tries to tell you their own CFI experience, you can never understand how much you learn as a CFI. And I’m not talking about how you LEARN to land a 152 a 1000 times and can do it perfect, I’m talking about how a CFI learns from students mistakes and their triumphs. This learning comes in so many fashions that I can't even begin to explain them all, and someone in your position cant fully understand. Other CFI’s know what I mean. By observing students for hours and hours you recognize good and bad habits on both a mental and physical level, you then incorporate this into your own flying which make you a better pilot, therefore better instructor, then the cycle repeats itself. Even beyond this you MATURE or at least most do, it gives you character and dignity which go miles into your professional image. You can’t teach judgment, but you can learn it especially from being a CFI. Everything you learn in your ratings is limited but when you have to teach it you REALLY learn what you did not know, which is a TON. I think being a CFI made me so much more secure in what I wanted to do with flying and that was go the military route, but I would have never been absolutely sure unless I had that experience.

Where did this experience helped me? When I did move on to bigger and better things I was able to succeed because I learned as a CFI that I AM ALWAYS A STUDENT. Whether or not I have 10,000 hours in an F-16 or 1 hour in a 152, they can both kill me. One is just a little more of an honorable death! (my .02 cents) he he

I would avoid comparing this profession to others, that’s why so many doctors who have pilots licenses are dead. Iv seen their type a hundred times when they came into the flight school, to see that look of dread on some of their faces, I mean having to take lessons or recurrent training from us mere peasants. Peeyew. Just for the record I don’t think they are all bad! Flying is Flying and not nursing, being a salesman, or digging a ditch. Do I despise your route? No not yet. Only that you repeatedly say things like “ how can you landing a 152 a thousand times help you be a better pilot?” Well it does when you’re an instructor. So at this point the only thing we can probably do is agree to disagree. Now I’m not trying to compare “stick” skills or aviation knowledge but if you can hold your own then so be it, go fourth and fly. But when it comes to the separate issue of "acceptance" among your peers then your gonna be looked upon as an outcast by some.

I like to think of this “acceptance” part of it like trying to get membership at the snooty golf club, where you must have old money and high stature to get in. If your one of these people who just won the lottery and have tons of cash guess what? your still not gonna get in or be accepted by its members, but remember you still have the money…

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

But from what Ive heard, it does seem like they are trying to bypass the system here.

That is EXACTLY what is happening. That is EXACTLY what a couple of us mean that P-F-T'ers cut in line in front of others. That's why I always compare it to people who cut you off in traffic, or in the line at the bank, or at the grocery store. I would swear on my certificates that if someone did any of the above to a P-F-T'er that he/she would scream bloody murder. Most people would. It's human nature. On the other hand, it would be the pot calling the kettle black.

I do appreciate the safety concerns. I would hope that the P-F-T airlines in question ensure that their pilot-customers receive the same training as their more experienced hirees and that that pass the same checkride. I am given to believe this.

P.S. Doesnt anyone love flying aside from money?

That's why I decided even as a child that one day I would learn how to fly. I finally did - strictly for fun. Later, when I learned that even I could have an aviation career, that was the icing on the cake - although both icing and cake became stale over time.

Good luck with your plans. I appeciate stlpilot's points, above, especially those regarding "outcast" and "acceptance."

 

[SierraPilot]

I can understand the argument against PFT, and while I can see how it could be considered cutting in line when done for the sole purpose of bypassing the normally accepted routes.. I personally am working on my commercial and have ever intention of working for my CFI, CFII, and MEI and working as a instructor.. however to be more COMPETITIVE, I am interested in getting some Turbine time in my logbook, while in the end I may have 1500+TT and 200+ MEL time instructing and another 250+ Turbine I can only see this as being valuable and while you might disagree that PFT is wrong, there are not many places you can get TURBINE time without PFT or getting hired by some company to work you way up into one.

If you know of any place to get 250+ of Turbine time, that isnt a PFT for timebuilding, let me know..

Ryan

 

[Toy Soldier]

Let's break it down into a list and see what it looks like:

1. Getting your private license - PFT
2. Getting your instrument tickets - PFT
3. Getting your ASEL commercial - PFT
4. Getting your AMEL commercial - PFT
5. Getting your CFI - PFT
6. Getting your CFII - PFT
7. Getting your MEI - PFT
8. Getting your ATP - PFT
9. Buying block time in a "twin" - PFT
10. Buying block time in a turboprop - PFT
11. Buying your way into an airline job with less than min. - PFT

It seems like the entire process of getting all of your ratings is PFT. In some form or other, we are paying for every bit of our training and experience.

Let's use the standard issue 1500 total and 200 multi as a base line for the following example.

PILOT A - gets all of his licenses and then CFI's until he meets the minimums. This guy "buys" his way up the ladder with sweat equity.

PILOT B - gets all of his licenses and then pays for a seat in an aircraft that doesn't require a "right seater". This guy "buys" his way up the ladder with a loan.

PILOT C - gets all of his licenses and then buys his way in to an aircraft that requires a "right seater". This guy "buys" his way up the ladder with a loan.

The process of reaching the "standard minimums" will be reached by all - however each will have taken different paths. The professional business world is no different. For example, compare the man that has all of his education and schooling but no experience to a man that has 20 years experience but no formal education.

However, two distinct problems can surface...

PROBLEM 1
I don't think the issue is the "method of getting the mins" as much as it is buying a way into a "slot" that requires a pilot anyway. IE; airline slot

PROBLEM 2
To me, the bigger problem is that we end up with cheaper salaries because there will always be those that will "work for food" to get the slot that the rest of us "professional grade IE: ATP, 1500/200" pilots have worked to get.













PILOT A

 

[Timebuilder]

.. however to be more COMPETITIVE, I am interested in getting some Turbine time in my logbook, while in the end I may have 1500+TT and 200+ MEL time instructing and another 250+ Turbine I can only see this as being valuable and while you might disagree that PFT is wrong, there are not many places you can get TURBINE time without PFT or getting hired by some company to work you way up into one.

While turbine time is valuable, there are so many pilots who have it, in addition to higher levels of total time, that I am not sure it is as much of an advantage as it used to be.

I had a whopping TWO hours of turbine time when I was hired as a Lear SIC. I don't think it was a factor. I DO think it was the multi instructor and piston charter experience that made me competitive, along with actual instrument and class B familiarity.

My conclusion? The negatives of PFT outweigh the benefits.

 

[Timebuilder]

It seems like the entire process of getting all of your ratings is PFT. In some form or other, we are paying for every bit of our training and experience.

If you think your list is correct, then you either have not fully educated yourself on this topic, or you are just posting flamebait.

There may be other possibilities, but I don't know you well enough to draw another conclusion.

 

[stillaboo]

I knew this thread wouldn't die!

Oh, Toy Soldier, read the entire thread. Then you'll see why your 'everybody does PFT' list doesn't fit the accepted definintion of PFT on this board.

edit: Or just have Bobbysamd re-write the essence of it below!

-Boo!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. P-F-T

It seems like the entire process of getting all of your ratings is PFT. In some form or other, we are paying for every bit of our training and experience.

No. You have to differentiate between obtaining training and paying for training.

Everyone must obtain the basic credentials of Commercial-Instrument. At its lowest common denominator, that means paying for use of an airplane and paying a flight instructor. The exception would be if you can use an airplane for free and/or a flight instructor will train you for free. Either or both are not likely.

At that point you will possess the basic quals for gaining employment as a pilot. You then look for jobs and, hopefully, are hired. That's where the P-F-T issue comes in.

You should not have to pay a company to train you. Training employees is a normal business expense - in any business or industry. Companies who pass that on to new hires are demeaning them, taking advantage of them, and perhaps defrauding them.

I never was hired into any kind of job where I had to pay for training, and neither should you. I've had something like 15 jobs in my life in something like five different businesses, including high school and college jobs. Maybe with some jobs we pay through the nose but one should not pay money for training.

Don't let others take advantage of you. Don't P-F-T.

 

[Toy Soldier]

I apologize for my lack of articulation! My post came about 2 hours after my "bedtime" last night.

I understood what everybody meant. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly - That's happened before!

I saw someone's concern in a previous post about "buying twin time" in an airplane that doesn't require two pilots. IE: block time in a King Air. Someone had refered to it as PFT!

That's why I summed it up by differentiating between the two. IE; paying for training in a seat that requires a pilot anyway. Versus buying "time".

For the record, I agree with the rest of the board overall about PFT. As I mentioned earlier,

PROBLEM 1 I don't think the issue is the "method of getting the mins" as much as it is buying a way into a "slot" that requires a pilot anyway. IE; airline slot

To me, the bigger problem is that we end up with cheaper salaries because there will always be those that will "work for food" to get the slot that the rest of us "professional grade IE: ATP, 1500/200" pilots have worked to get.

I just added the note about PFT affecting the salary structure as well.

Did I still miss the point?

 

[Scarecrow]

Dean Dean Dean

Dean,

I wish I had the time to develop a more articulate reply. I've not had the time to read every post in this thread (Nor do I have much time to type), but have read enough to see that a couple of people in this thread have very patiently tried to explain some truths to you. You have a good feel for the attitudes and opinions on this board. I'll give you mine.

I hate pay for training. I also have a difficult time developing respect for anyone who chooses to pay a company like GA for a "job"(sell-out B@st@rds). The reason that this matters to you is that one day, you will probably be sitting across from someone like me in an interview. Or, we'll get to know each other and you'll need help getting a job. (I think you know this -- It is the reason you are so defensive and trying to shore up your justification). Pay for training cheapens our profession. You're not here yet so this issue isn't very dear to you yet. It will be. We all love to fly. Our collective stength is the only thing that keeps us (most of us) from living out of cars just to have a job flying planes. Everytime some misguided individual forks over cash to try and short-cut the process, we lose. Don't do it. If you have the money to give GA, use it to suppliment your income as you develop the skills and experiences necessary to properly build your resume -- You'll garner far more respect.

Good luck with your decision.



Where the He!!'s the spell-check!

 

[bobbysamd]

Buying time

I saw someone's concern in a previous post about "buying twin time" in an airplane that doesn't require two pilots. IE: block time in a King Air . . . . IE; paying for training in a seat that requires a pilot anyway. Versus buying "time". . . . I don't think the issue is the "method of getting the mins" as much as it is buying a way into a "slot" that requires a pilot anyway. IE; airline slot

I note from your profile that you are a Chief Pilot, not to mention that you have some other excellent credentials. So, you would an appropriate person to judge this issue.

Which candidate would impress you, someone who bought a block of time and flew it off to make a minimum requirement, or someone who worked his/her way in and obtained time through employment? I am sure that it would be the latter, so therein lies your answer.

 

[Toy Soldier]

bobbysamd

I am on the same side of the fence as you are on this issue. In my post I made a feeble attempt at playing the devils advocate- and didn't do so well!

I was trying to compare a "minimum" 1500/200" hour pilot "not paying for training" versus the 350 hour pilot that has to pay for training to fill the same FO slot at an airline. Supposing that they both applied at the same tiime. I think it was like this at ASA a few years back.

In my question, I was asking whether it made a difference as to how the 1500/200 guy got his time - as long as it wasn't sitting in a seat that "required a pilot" anyway. Especially since those positions typically require the "newby" pay for the seat - (PFT).

As far as being Chief Pilot goes, other than having to worry about a prospective pilot meeting our insurance requirements, I try to make an objective assessment as to the persons' "quality" of experience. Experience has shown me that "more hours" don't always mean "more better"!

I am still going to slip in my opinion that PFT also cheapens our profession since folks are basically working for free AND paying for the paycheck. bobbysamd, do you remember in a previous post I mentioned that I had a new pilot that didn't want to accept her paycheck because she "felt bad because she was getting flight time from me"?

Well, I had a LOOONG talk with her about how that attitude cheapens our profession because she, and others, tend to have that PFT mentality. They think that as long as they are "getting something" then it must be OK. I'll tell you this, she came by today and wouldn't accept her check... until I told her that she was fired if she didn't!!!! I told her that the current management where I work would be GLAD to have her fly for free since she was "getting time"! A manager said that to me before. And right after the next comment that came out of his mouth about "pilots being out of work and he wasn't going to pay for my pilots to train - I went ballistic!

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Fly-For-Free

bobbysamd, do you remember in a previous post I mentioned that I had a new pilot that didn't want to accept her paycheck because she "felt bad because she was getting flight time from me"?

Yes, I remember it well. <sigh>

Well, I had a LOOONG talk with her about how that attitude cheapens our profession because she, and others, tend to have that PFT mentality. They think that as long as they are "getting something" then it must be OK. I'll tell you this, she came by today and wouldn't accept her check... until I told her that she was fired if she didn't!!!! I told her that the current management where I work would be GLAD to have her fly for free since she was "getting time"!

Ya know something, if I were still flying, I might have contacted you about that job, as, I'm sure, so would have dozens of other members here. Although I loved instructing, I would have jumped for joy to get a job where I actually had my hands on the controls for a change to actually fly without having to demo something.

You did the right thing by telling that lady you would can her if she did not accept her paycheck. I might be wrong about this, but from what I've seen about employment law, your company might have risked liability and/or wage and hour law problems if you had taken up this gal's offer to fly for free. You had to pay her. Once more, I may be wrong about this, but this is why a lot of companies don't want interns. You might discuss this with your corporate attorney.