PFT-Let it fly!

[pilotyip]

RW time is great

Four years ago when there was a real experience shortage, we talked our insurance company into allowing 100% of RW time towards mins, and 50% of MERW towards MEL mins, we hired four Helo guys with less than 100 civ FW, and they blew away their hi time FW civilian counter parts in training. The military routinely makes FW pilots out of RW pilots going from the H-53 to the C-9 in the reserves in one example I know of. RW guys make great pilots, They make great Capt.'s also, because they have alot of experience in a two-man cockpit and understand the Capt.'s leadership position. This something alot of single pilots PIC's have problems with. It is too bad there is so much stupidly in the airline hiring front office, with there FW mind set.

 

[bobbysamd]

Rotor time

A few fixed-wing hours?? That pilot with 1500RW/45FW is a 45 hr pilot in the eyes of places like Express Jet . . . . The attitude towards helo pilots was (is) disgusting . . . . People who think RW hours aren't as good as FW hours don't know what they are talking about. If you don't believe me, go find a helo school and go on a demo flight.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I had two students who were rotor pilots. One had his Private Airplane and came to me to add Instrument Airplane to his ticket. He was excellent. The other was an AR rotor pilot. He became an excellent airplane pilot. I recall one other student who had helo experience. He, too, was a fine airplane pilot.

Maybe I should clarify by what I mean by "a few" hours. How about something like 200-500? In any event, P-F-T is not the answer - and there are other companies besides Express Jet. Not that Mesa is an answer, either, but I recall it was open-minded about rotor time; in fact, the rotor pilot I trained for Private was one of my MAPD students.

 

[The_Russian]

I'm Back!!

I am sure that within 24hrs I will be moterated out, so most of you will not get to read what I have to say. I think it has something to due with the fact that Senior members on this thread fear the fact that I can present facts and not a jealous opinion.

Whatever.

Most of the Anti-PFT posters on this thread have no actual knowledge of the programs being discussed. Therefore I would not take any advice they present here. In fact a very small percentage of the people in the aviation industry view any kind of acceleraterd training program as a "bad thing".

Opinion: Gulfstream and other similar programs buy you a job.

Fact: You pay for the experiance and the finest real world training available in the aviation industry. After you are done, YOU must get a job at an airline.

For some pilots that means getting their CFI and instructing. Some will never return to the industry. Some will get an interview and be terminated within the first few months. No matter what route you take, the "system" will weed out the weak.

To say that pilots in these programs have little knowledge and skill is an uneducated statement. If you take any route to the big jet job (CFI or PFT), you will find people who are competent and those who are inept.

As for the military it's too bad I could not go that route, my vision is not good enough. So now you can't give me a bad rap for that because I tried that route. Genetics suck.

Personally, I have spent 3 years as a flight instructor, a fueler, a free SIC CE-550 pilot and recently a college student. I have paid my dues. I am still paying my dues. I will be paying my dues until I am Captain of an aircraft somewhere. I have chosen an airline training program now. I will be paying a lot of money to fly a commuter turboprop, but when I finish the program I will have real world 121 turbine experiance. Even though I will be in debt, I still have spent less than my fellow Comair and Flightsafety pilots who can't even get jobs as CFI's.

My advice to those who care about their future:

Do not listen to people who are negative about anything in this industry. Be positive and work hard. If you chose an airline training program such as Gulfstream, TAB, or Mesa, don't make it your only way in. Get you CFI and instruct on the side. Rent airplanes or do a multi-engine time building program also. Plan on having at least 1000 hours before you finish your taining program. I know for a fact that you've got the time on you hands to fly elsewhere. If you are a good stick and a good person you will get a job sooner than you think. Keep paying your dues how you feel they should be paid, not how a handful of people think that you should. Their twisted sense of reality is blinded by jealousy, their own faults, and their inabilities. Good luck.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Most of the Anti-PFT posters on this thread have no actual knowledge of the programs being discussed. Therefore I would not take any advice they present here. In fact a very small percentage of the people in the aviation industry view any kind of acceleraterd training program as a "bad thing".

I believe the word you want is "accelerated."

No, pal, in and of itself, accelerated training is not necessarily bad. Most airline training is accelerated. Whether P-F-T is accelerated is irrelevant and immaterial.

Anyone with means, or even with a loan, can write a check and get into a P-F-T program - and probably be pushed through so the school can collect full tuition. More on that below. With P-F-T, experience does not matter. Your money does. Which would seem to obviate your point about obtaining other experience besides your paid-for experience. In other words, "I have P-F-T. I have 121 'experience.' Isn't 121 experience all I need?? Why should I need 'other' experience?"

Opinion: Gulfstream and other similar programs buy you a job.

Fact: You pay for the experiance and the finest real world training available in the aviation industry. After you are done, YOU must get a job at an airline.

The facts about "buying a job" are set forth on the Gulfstream FAQ page:

2. Will I really get paid while I'm flying co-pilot during the 250 programmed hours?

Answer: Yes, you will be paid, $8.00 per flight hour, commencing when you have completed the Initial Operating Experience requirement, for the balance of the 250 hours.

I assume that federal income taxes, FICA and Medicare are deducted, or are the wages paid under the table? Therefore, this is a job, as a required flight crew member, nothing more or nothing less, for which the P-F-Ter paid. There are your facts.

Another tidbit from the FAQ:

7. Does the total amount have to be paid up front?

Answer: Yes, the accelerated admission or the standard admission deposit must be paid in advance. The balance is due on the first day of the IFR refresher which is held on the second Monday of each month.

Followup FAQs from me: Are students who clearly will not complete training washed out promptly so they have a chance of being refunded "tuition"? Probably not. The school will say it wants to give them a chance to succeed. The truth is that Gulfstream wants to earn as much revenue off their tuition as possible. Any refunds paid to P-F-T students who wash out? Possibly. How quickly are refunds given? Probably not very. Will I have to sue and/or contact the State's Attorney to enforce my refund rights? Probably.

The only comment with which I agree is:

Be positive and work hard.

If you do both, you'll get your chance without having to resort to the P-F-T crutch.

 

[The_Russian]

ACCELERATED

There are you happy. The only thing you seem to be able to do well is correct my spelling.

And PFT is not a crutch. I have worked hard to get where I am. I am using this program to build a great deal of time quickly and to be a better investment for an airline.

And when it comes to people being "booted" from the program, I have seen it for myself. Students that don't cut it, have a bad attitude, fail tests, or dont show up are left in the dust. If that occurs it is the students own fault. The school holds their students to the highest standard, trust me I worked there, you didn't. Get your money back? That is between the student and the Academy.

Buying a job? The airline was founded on the Academy, not the other way around. The only reason they pay you is because the FAA says they have to. In all reality the program isn't PFT, because after your 250 there is no job. If you were told you would have the job for the rest of your life if you wanted it, that would be PFT. This is a time building, training program. And a good one at that.

You want to talk about doing your time? I'm washing a plane this afternoon just to get a few hours in it. We will talk in a year when I'm flying airplanes every day for a living instead of busting my a$$. You will still be behind your desk correcting peoples spelling. And don't call me "pal". I dislike having to get personal with members who are as negative as yourself. I'm sure once you complain I'll be moterated out, and once again your word will be golden.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

Free SIC...it figures

 

[PC12Cowboy]

HMMM interesting

Wow,
It still comes down to experience and what is established in a training program......Even if you just tune the radios, You will learn something....unless the brain is disconnected for the stem....I have paid for an intiail training course at Sim Com in the PC 12, so as to take advantage of getting to fly in the right seat when the Pax are on board and left seat when empty........But I have learned more about profeesional communication and eliminating some bad habits formed as a flight instructor in airplanes with bad intercoms...I'm still a CFI,CFII,CFIMEI...but I revel in the fact that I'm learning CRM first hand and realize that I can complete a course of training while being fed by the FIRE HOSE method, and not drown....LOL
As someone stated earlier ....WE ALL Pay For Training and its not just monetarily judged but in all the scarifices we make...We choose the profession and I think the Cake and Icing only get stale if we lose sight of what it was like to Solo for the First time ...If it is stale renew your CFI and relive the feeling of your first solo thru a Student pilots and the continous grin that never leaves his or her faces for the next week! I can see both points of the discussion...but I have choosen the CFI method of time building and wish I had more opportunity to fly bigger and faster equipment...Got an Open SEAT???? I'll fill it just to learn and Experience all I Can..thanks to you guys for a Forum to learn as well
PC12Cowboy!

 

[The_Russian]

PC12 Cowboy, that was awesome. Perfectly put and very open-minded.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

PC12CowBoy

The question is do you get paid to fly the PC12? Are the PAX requesting 2 Pilots? is this 135? Is the second pilot required in the Ops specs? Are you SIC qual? Are you logging the right seat time? .....OK I'll stop right here.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and negativity

There are you happy. The only thing you seem to be able to do well is correct my spelling . . . . I dislike having to get personal with members who are as negative as yourself. I'm sure once you complain I'll be moterated out, and once again your word will be golden.

Now that you mention it, the correct spelling is "moderated."

How can anyone be positive and supportive of a scheme that devalues experience and qualifications? Among other things, devaluation of qualifications and credentials, not to mention the insult of having to pay for my training, which was absolutely tantamount to buying a job, were, to me, gravely insulting. Once more, the only true qualification is one's ability to pay for the job. Flight time and ratings no longer matter. In other words, to the P-F-T airline, a 3000-hour pilot is worth the same as a 250-hour pilot.

By the way, I helped wash and wax a King Air a few times in hopes of getting a few hours, so, I, too, have been there and done that.

I never said my words were "golden." But, since you have characterized them as such, I thank you kindly for that characterization and appellation.

Good luck with however you proceed.

PS-FYI, I don't complain to moderators about other posters.

 

[cargodawg]

PFT bad, I couldn't agree more.

Direct quote from a good friend, CP in a LR-55 about hiring PFTers. "Would you really go up to a hot chick and say, Hi I'm Dave and I have herpes, but lots of great experience, so do you wanna get out of here? That isn't going to fly as they say at the airport and neither is a PFTer in my Lear 55."
I would listen to the pros here and avoid PFT at all costs, it can cost you a great job.
Anyone remember the tortise (sp) and the hare. I still think slow and steady wins the race.
Please don't cheapen my profession any more than it already has been.

 

[CFI'er]

I can understand the argument against PFT, and while I can see how it could be considered cutting in line when done for the sole purpose of bypassing the normally accepted routes..

Ryan

"NORMALLY ACCEPTED ROUTES"

Who determines what is normal when it comes to flight training?Everyone seems to get upset about changes in every day life. We are use to doing things the way we were taught or are accustom too. Who says that the CFI route is the best way to that regional pilot job? If PFT was that bad, would not the FAA, Insurance Companies and management see it as a bad thing? It all boils down to jealously of the haves and have-nots. Those who want to spend more money for the PFT training, all the power to then. In the end, they will fall out or make it just like the traditional CFI’s.

I know more than one airline Captain that started out in an airline career holding no more than a Private Certificate. Are you going to say that they are less qualified because they did not become a CFI first? If it was a case of safety, between a PFTer being not as qualified as the traditional CFIer, programs like 60 Minutes or 20/20 would be all over this issue. It is only an issue to those who went the traditional CFI route.

One could argue that graduates of our military academies are freeloaders. Our taxes paid for their schooling in exchange for time in service. I don’t think that 8 years of service is enough for the cost of their education. It should be minimum of 20 years, plus another 10 years of active reserve. Flame bait, you bet. Let it rip.

 

[USMCAirWinger]

Let me guess...0 time in active duty!

 

[bobbysamd]

Rip, I shall . . . .

Who says that the CFI route is the best way to that regional pilot job?

No one that I recall. I'll say it again, if one can get a legtimate non-instructing flying job at 250 hours, go for it. There are simply not that many of those jobs and too much competition for them. CFI is the easiest entry-level job to get. There are not that many legitimate jobs available for 250-hour pilots. Of course, you can always try for one of those sleazy banner-towing jobs in Florida . . .

If PFT was that bad, would not the FAA, Insurance Companies and management see it as a bad thing? It all boils down to jealously of the haves and have-nots.

The FAA does not care who occupies the seats as long as they meet Part 61, 121 and 135 requirements. Insurance does not care as long as the pilots meet its minimums. P-F-T is an employment and hiring issue, not a regulatory issue.

Management sees P-F-T as a good thing because P-F-T is a management idea. ("Why should we have to pay for our pilots' training? There are so many pilots out there who are so desperate to be airline pilots that they would pay us for their jobs!")

I know more than one airline Captain that started out in an airline career holding no more than a Private Certificate. Are you going to say that they are less qualified because they did not become a CFI first?

No. Read the above again. Moreover, at some point they had to get their Commercial and ATP.

Finally, it's not a matter of jealousy. The "jealousy" argument fails ab initio because anyone who can get the money can P-F-T. That is the only qualification. But, since so many P-F-Ters like to argue jealousy, might they be the ones who are jealous because they cannot get an airline "seat" through ordinary means?

 

[pilotyip]

they cannot get an airline "seat"

They cannot get an airline "seat" through ordinary means? What is ordinary means? Is it ComAir Academy ordinary, don't you PFT there? How about FSI, is not that PFT? What about ATP, again you pay for advanced training, lots of money as I hear, is that PFT? How about Pinnacle, no pay while in training, and you buy your own room, no per-deim, is it not PFT? (this is based upon feedback in 2002 from one of our pilots who was offered a job there and turned it down to fly the DC-9) What is ordinary? Maybe it would be better to define what is not ordinary. The flight time argument, that the PFT'ers are using PFT to cut in line, does not hold water, flt time as little to do with a pilot's flying skill, we have heard the argument of the 500 hr military pilot, who is extremely skilled, at what many consider low time. PFT is an option available to many pilots as a step in their career. It is not up to anyone here to judge how one goes about pursuit of their career. There are a large number of PFT'ers out there, who have great positions. Air Tran, NetJets, ACA to name a few. You can elect to not pursue PFT to satisfy an inter sense of personal honor, but you cannot judge those who elect to do it, just as you should not be judged because you elect not to be a PFTer. I have interviewed three pilots from the renowned PFT mills, one was a complete looser, did not hire, the next was great guy, low time, but a great pilot, we hired him, he left for a national jet carrier, and we offered another a job, but he got another airline job before our class started. We interview and hire those who have paid for advanced training. I do not see that as any different from going out and buying your 737 type, or ATP certificate. The Russian makes sense.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T or not?

They cannot get an airline "seat" through ordinary means? What is ordinary means? Is it ComAir Academy ordinary, don't you PFT there?

No. Employment, not flight training, is the determinant. Comair Academy is a training establishment. Maybe an employer for some, eventually. One prong of the generally-accepted P-F-T test is if you must remit money to the employer for your training as a condition of hire. In other words, Yip, if some interviewee sat across your desk and you told him/her that he/she must pay for his/her training at your company in order to be hired, that would be P-F-T.

How about FSI, is not that PFT?

No.

How about Pinnacle, no pay while in training, and you buy your own room, no per-deim, is it not PFT?

That is wrong and it sucks, but it is not P-F-T. Unless the airline is charging its trainees for their training costs as a condition of their eomployment.

I do not see that as any different from going out and buying your 737 type, or ATP certificate.

Ah, hah, the 737 type argument again!

The second prong of the two-prong P-F-T test is whether the training leads to a certficate, rating or operating privilege that is universally accepted and can be marketed anywhere. The 737 type is recognized by all who recognize FAA 737 type ratings. Southwest et al are not requiring its new-hires to pay for their 737 training as a condition of hire, nor are they requiring them to buy the rating from them. ( I don't even know if Southwest operates an 737 type school.) The ATP is recognized by all who recognize an FAA ATP certificate. No company requires its 1500-hour applicants to upgrade to ATP with them at the applicant's cost as a condition of hire. Moreover, who says one needs a multi ATP? You can get a single-engine ATP in a 172 and it is still an ATP.

Once more, P-F-T is not a regulatory requirement, it is an employment condition. Generally, for something to be considered to be P-F-T, two conditions must be met. (1) An employer requires that you pay it for your training with it as a condition of employment and (2) the training is esoteric and specific to that company only and does not result in a certificate, rating or operating privilege that is generally recognized and is marketable outside the company. While schools such as Comair and Mesa dangle the interview and employment carrot, and a tempting carrot it is, they are only promising training and are not guaranteeing employment.

 

[DAS at 10/250]

I second USMCAirWinger

As a former Army CH-47 "67U" maintainer I agree wholeheartedly with USMC. That crap out of CFI'er could only have come from someone who never spent a day in uniform.

CFI'er you had better keep your mouth shut or go sign up!

Det 1 Co G 149 AVN "NightHawks"

 

[Ralgha]

I was content to lurk in this thread until I saw this gem:

No one that I recall. I'll say it again, if one can get a legitimate flying job at 250 hours, go for it. There are simply not that many of those jobs and too much competition for them.

So are you saying that flight instructing is not a legitimate flying job? I don't think it gets any more legitimate than teaching someone how to fly. All you airline types would be nowhere if it weren't for flight instructors.

Oh, and for the record, I think PFT bull**** too.

 

[bobbysamd]

I was content to lurk in this thread until I saw this gem:

No one that I recall. I'll say it again, if one can get a legitimate flying job at 250 hours, go for it. There are simply not that many of those jobs and too much competition for them.

While I'm sure the meaning of my comment was clear, I will amend it to read as follows:

No one that I recall. I'll say it again, if one can get a legitimate non-instructing flying job at 250 hours, go for it. There are simply not that many of those jobs and too much competition for them.

 

[pilotyip]

Thanks Bobby

Being a legal kind of guy, I think Bobby has just written the legal definition of PFT. I still think PFT is a viable option for pilot who wants to get the experience. For certain people as described before I would recommend it. It was brought about by hard times in the early 90's, went away because it became an impedance to recruiting in the late 90's. Companies will make decisions based upon economics to determine if PFT is an option they elect to pursue.