Pay raise for Hawaiian Airlines CEO

[XOXO]

OK, pilots working overtime at HAL doesn't hurt furloughed pilots. To be honest, no one really cares. This was only brought to attention when some of your furloughed pilots started speculating on replacing current AQ pilots if some mythical merger was about to happen. Can you see the bait and switch now? Why don't we just let it die and see what happens in the courts. If we keep up the game of who's better than who pretty soon someone will start a thread about HAL pilots being unprofessional for not wearing ties with the uniform.

P.S. How do your young taste with the mango salsa?

 

[Dan Roman]

Well said socal, I have to laugh at people who don't work at Hawaiian throwing all kinds of judgements around that are pretty ridiculous. The fact is, as you said, we are all trying to survive and we are all dealing with problems that are not of our own making. Hawaiian has had it's ups and downs but we have seen our perserverance pay off. It sucks that 98 got furloughed due to Adam's gamble (brain fart?) but the majority of the furloughed pilots are showing the same perserverance that Ewa Beach just showed in PA. We have done everything we can for our furloughed pilots, we havn't prevented ANYBODY from being recalled by flying overtime and the furloughed pilots well being is a high priority for the vast majority of active pilots. They WILL be back soon. We have found a pretty good balance between the volatilty of our industry and protecting our employee's. When you return, it will be an even better Hawaiian than the one you left.

 

[Dan Roman]

Here you go guys we can all stop speculating.


http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050831/BUSINESS03/508310358
On the surface, this looks like good news for everyone.

 

[mdanno808]

Great news. I hope it works out for you guys.

 

[Erndogg]

Been gone for awhile and just got back to respond to some of the accusations leveled by Small Jorgan and Strangebrew.

1. I am a once furloughed pilot at Hawaiian that was one of the fortunate ones to get called back recently. Making accusations that our guys are not getting called back because our active guys are picking up OPEN flying is incorrect and it is not as simple as you may think. I had the same mentality when I was furloughed at Hawaiian and was pretty pissed!!! If you look at the recall sheets at hawaiian on a month to month basis-there has been very few if not any (in some months) of recall pay.

2. Our mgmt. decided that the employees were going to take the brunt of this blunder that Adams had put us into. ALPA did everything in thier power to lessen the blow. They provided a good example of how to handle a 1113 case and will be a benchmark to other alpa groups-maybe even Aloha's??? This extra flying crap your whinning about is peanuts compared to the whole picture!! Maybe you should worry more about ISLAND AIR taking your jobs at ALOHA as compared to guys flying extra at HAL-What your owners are doing to you is WAY MORE dangerous than what you bitch about at HAL!!!!
give us some better examples of how our senior pilots are supposely screwing our furloughed.

3. I wish you guys luck at ALOHA-I am happy to see that you have an investor lined up to take you guys over!! I like the fact that we will have 2 strong carriers in Hawaii. I have alot of buddies over there from my Island Air days and want them to succeed, but something that has always bothered me about your union leadership is that they have a tendency to put down Hawaiian on numerous occansions (I dont want to list them all here). Instead of working with them to help the two groups fight the challenges we face- your leaders spew hate and spead it to you junior pilots!!!!

4. I wont post anything on Aloha that I dont have any facts on. You guys should CHECK YOURSELVES!!! before you go pointing fingers at Hawaiian pilots!! Dont write with emotions but facts!!!!

 

[dash8driver]

um....everyone went home already...





.

 

[AQ PILOT]

kickin' it and still posting.....

Ok, first off...I'm kickin' it on 20 days off and I am not happy about having to respond to anyone right now! (low level humor there.....)

Secondly, I don't think hugh works for AQ anymore. Regardless, can you really question anyone's logic on the furloghed pilot issue? It makes perfect sense that if you have the need for X hours to be flown and you have Y pilots, that the X/Y=Z....Z being the number of hours flown per pilot. If you raise Z then the ratio of X and Y must change. Obviously, the number of hours needing to be flown aint goin' nowhere....therefore, Y would be the logical assumption for some sort of a modification. Now you're saying it doesn't work that way. FINE! I believe you. We believe you. It just seems odd. Our guys sent those of us furloughed after 9-11 a 'booster check' to help us get bye. Our impression...again OUR IMPRESSION...is that we are a tighter knit group than what goes on over there with your two groups.

You're right about Island Air taking our jobs. It is pure and unadultered bull$hit. Not only did we realize that. We called them on it. We had an arbitrator rule in our favor. Our prize? A lawsuit from the company. That said, since you're pointing it out, I'd like to thank you for your help in the matter and not standing up against the codeshare that HAL has entered with Island Air. Hate to have any help from our bruddahs across the ramp. Actually, that's not fair. It wouldn't matter either way. Both our companies have been beat like wet dogs. Our MECs can growl and snap like pitbulls but management is outside their backyards.

You mentioned that you wouldn't post anything about Aloha without facts. That's very cool of you. I'll try and do the same. Since you proffered that one, you just pointed out that AQ's union leadership has a tendancy to put HAL down. Could you post some facts on that? Really. I've been here 4 years and the worst thing I remember our MEC saying about your MEC was that you guys work too much. I am gonna officially apologize for that one. But I do look forward to your facts....please post soon!

Lastly, good lord, what a pathetic profession we have become. ALPA rolls over like a soccer ball at the drop of a hat.... Pilot, FA, and Machinist Unions no longer band together. Few ever agree not to cross the picket of another union's line. This is THAT bad. We really are in a race for the bottom. Let's forget about that now though...let's go back to bitching about who is more despicable...AQ or HAL!

Been gone for awhile and just got back to respond to some of the accusations leveled by Small Jorgan and Strangebrew.

1. I am a once furloughed pilot at Hawaiian that was one of the fortunate ones to get called back recently. Making accusations that our guys are not getting called back because our active guys are picking up OPEN flying is incorrect and it is not as simple as you may think. I had the same mentality when I was furloughed at Hawaiian and was pretty pissed!!! If you look at the recall sheets at hawaiian on a month to month basis-there has been very few if not any (in some months) of recall pay.

2. Our mgmt. decided that the employees were going to take the brunt of this blunder that Adams had put us into. ALPA did everything in thier power to lessen the blow. They provided a good example of how to handle a 1113 case and will be a benchmark to other alpa groups-maybe even Aloha's??? This extra flying crap your whinning about is peanuts compared to the whole picture!! Maybe you should worry more about ISLAND AIR taking your jobs at ALOHA as compared to guys flying extra at HAL-What your owners are doing to you is WAY MORE dangerous than what you bitch about at HAL!!!!
give us some better examples of how our senior pilots are supposely screwing our furloughed.

3. I wish you guys luck at ALOHA-I am happy to see that you have an investor lined up to take you guys over!! I like the fact that we will have 2 strong carriers in Hawaii. I have alot of buddies over there from my Island Air days and want them to succeed, but something that has always bothered me about your union leadership is that they have a tendency to put down Hawaiian on numerous occansions (I dont want to list them all here). Instead of working with them to help the two groups fight the challenges we face- your leaders spew hate and spead it to you junior pilots!!!!

4. I wont post anything on Aloha that I dont have any facts on. You guys should CHECK YOURSELVES!!! before you go pointing fingers at Hawaiian pilots!! Dont write with emotions but facts!!!!

 

[RJP]

You're right about Island Air taking our jobs. It is pure and unadultered bull$hit. Not only did we realize that. We called them on it. We had an arbitrator rule in our favor. Our prize? A lawsuit from the company.

Oh good lord. Can't you AQ guys let this thing die? Mommy, those mean kids flying those 37-seat POS props took my job! I'm sure you think that it was the decision of the WP pilot group to fly YOUR routes. Each and every pilot at Island Air collaborated and schemed to take YOUR job. Let me say it for you: SCOPE CLAUSE! Whatever.

Lastly, good lord, what a pathetic profession we have become. ALPA rolls over like a soccer ball at the drop of a hat.... Pilot, FA, and Machinist Unions no longer band together. Few ever agree not to cross the picket of another union's line. This is THAT bad. We really are in a race for the bottom.

Did your three unions stick together? Or did the mechanics end up before the judge alone?

 

[dash8driver]

Did your three unions stick together? Or did the mechanics end up before the judge alone?

i believe he's speaking of the entire industry inclusively there.

btw...no one is blaming the pilots. zander is the idiot that created this mess. the pilots even approached him with options of scope relief and such. he was even quoted as saying he's not stupid enough to create another competitor....hmmm.

btw, are you aware that the mighty mighty is flying seaplanes now? time to up the boat insurance.




.

 

[Erndogg]

You're right about Island Air taking our jobs. It is pure and unadultered bull$hit. Not only did we realize that. We called them on it. We had an arbitrator rule in our favor. Our prize? A lawsuit from the company. That said, since you're pointing it out, I'd like to thank you for your help in the matter and not standing up against the codeshare that HAL has entered with Island Air. Hate to have any help from our bruddahs across the ramp. Actually, that's not fair. It wouldn't matter either way. Both our companies have been beat like wet dogs. Our MECs can growl and snap like pitbulls but management is outside their backyards.

I dont know the exact timeframe between when we signed on with Island Air and when they started to violate the scope-but I will voice my concern to my reps at ALPA on this issue. Even more so now that your company is trying to use the BK court to eliminate scope.

You mentioned that you wouldn't post anything about Aloha without facts. That's very cool of you. I'll try and do the same. Since you proffered that one, you just pointed out that AQ's union leadership has a tendancy to put HAL down. Could you post some facts on that? Really. I've been here 4 years and the worst thing I remember our MEC saying about your MEC was that you guys work too much. I am gonna officially apologize for that one. But I do look forward to your facts....please post soon!

I've been told by my buddies at Aloha that when they were in orientation that the ALPA reps dissing Hawaiian during their pre-BK conversion to the 767/717 saying that they were unprofessional and they would fall flat on thier face. This is a direct quote from a buddy of mine (that no longer works for Aloha). have also been told (by my other active Aloha buddies) similar mudslinging has been the norm over there. The point I want to make is that were in this fight to preserve our future together. I hope that Hawaiian and Aloha will get through this whole industry crisis and a frickkin barrel of oil stays below $100.00.

 

[dash8driver]

so you're telling me your group has been victimized by AQ pilots and HAL is completely innocent of trash talking?

did any of your buddies tell you about how AQ pilots walked the picket line with the HAL pilots?

 

[Dan Roman]

AQ and Earndog (actually anyone who wants to read this),

AQ, you mentioned a "booster check" when your guys were furloughed. We voted to make the medical insurance payments of our furloughed pilots out of our pockets. That's not the only thing we have done for them, but the point is I think you'll find both our groups have a little more Ohana in them than most when it counts. We are both pretty tight nit and thats one of the reason the sabers come out when we talk of merging! You do have a point though in that our group has been fractionalized, It is due to having 2 councils. The battle of pilots wanting flying based on the mainland has split our group and you would be shocked at some of the infighting that has taken place over trying to put flying on the west coast.

Earndog raises a good point. Our airlines have two different corporate personalities. Two true stories here to illustrate the diference.
Early 90's when we were struggling, you CEO attended a MEC meeting and annouced that "Hawaiian was going out of business" and received a standing ovation! This came from an Aloha pilot who was there an said he was disgusted by his fellow pilots. Now compare that to a Hawaiian MEC meeting I was at. Paul Casey was there and Aloha had just made a very derogatory remark about us in the press. Someone asked him about it and his comment was "we don't believe in taking potshots at the competition, it's our philosophy to take the high road and worry about making ourselves better rather than try and put down the competition". This also got a round of applause from the attending pilots. These are just two examples of many similar incidents. Your Glen Zander did more to hurt the merger than our anti-merger committees if you ask me.

Over the last 25 years, Hawaiian has had one wild ride. We have been flying all over the world with DC-8's, L-1011's DC-10's and 767's. We have taken our lumps and personify the struggles of Airline deregulation as well as anyone. Our union has delt with issues (some of our own making) that you guys havn't even dreamed about. But we have a lot to show for it, relative to it's size, Hawaiian has been posting the best operating profits in the industry (all the while during our BK we paid every bill, made all our lease payments and funded our retirement). We also kept our working conditions intact and our hourly rate at the upper end of the industry pay scale. My pay coming out of Bankruptcy vs. when we went in is better (2.5% percent higher on the hourly, $5 an hour more for all South Pacific flying and 80 cents an hour more per diem) On top of this my retirement finally got properly funded. All this translates into about $400 dollars a month more take home. Also during the last couple of years I've gotten about $4-5000 dollars in bonus checks (profit sharing). That's the reality of our situation vs. some of the rhetoric floating around (posturing and militant whiners who would complain no matter what they got).

BTW, our guys are furloughed because Gotbaum elected to return 2 767's that we sorely needed than and now. We can be our own worse enemy sometime's as by delaying our exit from BK we lost 3 767's to another bidder.

None of us are perfect, we are all just trying to do what we can to survive in a very volatile industry. If you keep it in perpective, it's still a pretty good way to make a living. AQ, good luck to you guys. I guess you're waiting to hear more from your investor, bottom line is, in the long run I'm sure they have plans to expand, most people don't buy an airline with the intent to shrink it. You guys have plenty of potential and I hope these guys will utilize it.

Anyway, maybe this will clarify why some of us are a little sensitive to people taking potshots at us.

 

[Dan Roman]

so you're telling me your group has been victimized by AQ pilots and HAL is completely innocent of trash talking?

did any of your buddies tell you about how AQ pilots walked the picket line with the HAL pilots?

Didn't mean to leave you out, of course your right as I said above there is a different corporate philosophy, but individually, most of us support each other and each side has a few jerks. In support of what Earndog said. I also spoke to an AQ pilot that told me he couldn't believe his basic indoc class. He said most of it consisted of Zander coming in and talking about how screwed up Hawaiian was, he couldn't believe it.

 

[dash8driver]

Didn't mean to leave you out, of course your right as I said above there is a different corporate philosophy, but individually, most of us support each other and each side has a few jerks. In support of what Earndog said. I also spoke to an AQ pilot that told me he couldn't believe his basic indoc class. He said most of it consisted of Zander coming in and talking about how screwed up Hawaiian was, he couldn't believe it.

exactly my point. no group/company is innocent. we hear stuff based on that exact same formula. (other company taking cheapshots) + (we are above that) = (we good) + (they bad). most rational people are aware that some of this is true and some of it is false and no side is innocent.

its funny. we are tight knit in our own groups, but being hawaii this tight knit fabric also extends into the other groups due to friends and family. when our respective irrationals start to lose it, its like a corporate version of the civil war. brothers fighting against brothers, literally.

p.s. almost hurt my feelings til i saw i got a post all to myself!



.

 

[Erndogg]

exactly my point. no group/company is innocent. we hear stuff based on that exact same formula. (other company taking cheapshots) + (we are above that) = (we good) + (they bad). most rational people are aware that some of this is true and some of it is false and no side is innocent.

Good points!! All I got to say is that we pilots and all are other dedicated airline workers that have given thier whole lives to this industry have to support each other and make through this slump.

Merger, no merger, etc... we all have the same aspirations of making a decent living wage, living in a nice home, sending our kids to private school etc..... Aloha pilots on the board-keep us up to date on the goings on over there. If you guys need help picketing tell us!! I'll do my best to support you guys/gals over there and for the guys getting furloughed-good luck guys!! Hopefully you guys/gals can keep busy and make a decent living until this sh__t blows over!!

I'm out!!

 

[Dan Roman]

Well said both you guys! Here's to a healthy Hawaiian AND Aloha airlines going forward.

 

[AQ PILOT]

I'll second that.....

 

[Whale Rider]

Good points!! All I got to say is that we pilots and all are other dedicated airline workers that have given thier whole lives to this industry have to support each other and make through this slump.

Merger, no merger, etc... we all have the same aspirations of making a decent living wage, living in a nice home, sending our kids to private school etc..... Aloha pilots on the board-keep us up to date on the goings on over there. If you guys need help picketing tell us!! I'll do my best to support you guys/gals over there and for the guys getting furloughed-good luck guys!! Hopefully you guys/gals can keep busy and make a decent living until this sh__t blows over!!

I'm out!!

Amen Brah!!!

 

[Jim]

To defend HAL ALPA and the active pilots, I believe they did all that was possible during the bankruptcy to protect the furloughed guys. Case in point, the company wanted to treat furloughees as new hires for pay and retirement with smaller benefits. The union and active pilots at HAL stood up for the furlughees and beat this down. I even believe it cost the more senior active pilots retirement dollars to do this. To achieve this, the manning formula was changed slightly which will delay the the first 10 or 15 recalls slightly. Let's see - the senior guys give up money and I give up a little longer on furlough. I think that's fair. (Of course I believe neither would have been necessary if Adams did not rape the company and if Butgum was not incompetent.)

 

[RJP]

btw, are you aware that the mighty mighty is flying seaplanes now? time to up the boat insurance. .

No way. Seriously? That would explain why he needs all those opens. Seaplane time is pricey!

 

[dash8driver]

No way. Seriously? That would explain why he needs all those opens. Seaplane time is pricey!

well, i'm not positive. it was either him or elmer fudd getting the clearance for sealane-4 the other day.

 

[Freight Dog]

well, i'm not positive. it was either him or elmer fudd getting the clearance for sealane-4 the other day.

He's gonna "kill someone one of these days."

 

[mdanno808]

So AQ guys, when will the info on your buyers be released?

 

[RJP]

Don't know if there's validity to this or not, but I've been told that the same group bought Era in Alaska.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Well said socal, I have to laugh at people who don't work at Hawaiian throwing all kinds of judgements around that are pretty ridiculous.

Laugh if you will, but I want to cry when I look around the industry and watch different kool-aid-drunken pilot groups rationalize ridiculous notions (take the blue-koolaid chuggin, airplane- cleaning-wanna-fly-more-than-8-hours-a-day guys for example).

We’ve told you that if no one picks up ANY extra flying, and the reserves pick up the slack, not a single furloughee - myself included - will be recalled one day earlier.

Again, to believe that is naive, but of course, one would have to work at your company to truly understand how it might not be

Do you honestly believe that your company keeps one single pilot more on the property than is needed to keep the flight schedule going from day to day? There's no way your super-secret staffing formula does anything more than keep a certain amount of reserves on hand for any given flying day. There's no way it's not based on historical sick rates and open-time-picker-upper rates. There's no way that if every swinging dick who has been taking open time stops doing it, that the "staffing formula" isn't going to call for more reserves to be on hand to cover the open seats that need to be filled.
Call me crazy, but I'm looking at it from a purely unemotional, linear, factual point of view. I don't have a dog in this fight and sometimes that enables a little more objective point of view. I have no agenda against or for HAL pilots. Grow some skin and take a look at simple math... YES, it's FREAKING SIMPLE MATH! Anyone who tells you it's complicated should not be trusted.

X + Y= number of pilots needed per day to cover flights where X is (A + B)
A= pilots assigned trips by their schedule B= Pilots working on off days
Y= number of reserves historically needed to keep (N) reserves standing by to pick up unexpected openings once the open time, vacation, training, etc. has been covered.

When B = 0, then Y MUST be a bigger number than when B is some number greater than 1 in order to keep N relatively constant.

Or perhaps, HAL keeps an extra big supply of Y, just in case B suddenly goes to zero after a long period of B historically being a number greater than 1? I think not. HAL is just like every other airline.

Seriously, I wish you guys all the best and that means recalls soon and profitibility.

I'm still open to reading about how HAL can do this differently, but all you guys do is get emotional and talk about how nobody from the outside could understand. Or....how that we (I) ignore facts. I haven't seen any facts to show me otherwise. I could be wrong. Just show me. Otherwise, don't work on your day off!!!! Go surf, for chrissakes. Chase brown girls. Do something, but don't work on your day off thinking you aren't hurting your brother.

Best of luck.

 

[Erndogg]

So AQ guys, when will the info on your buyers be released?

Did the media jump the gun? I'm hearing that the final sign off on this buyout is not as assured as indicated in the paper? Can the Aloha guys give us an update?

 

[dash8driver]

Did the media jump the gun? I'm hearing that the final sign off on this buyout is not as assured as indicated in the paper? Can the Aloha guys give us an update?

apparently this information is "G-14 classified"...

they're not telling us anything either. we have to subscribe to the advertiser if we want to know whats going on here. if you want the rumor mill fodder i can tell you that rumor A has it that there is more than one investor and we're still trying to figure out who's the daddy. rumor B has it that we have the investor singled out but all the terms and conditions of the deal arent quite hammered out yet.

even after the name is released, we still have to do the same thing hal did. go through that 30-day period in court to allow other bidders to throw their plan out there, etc.

 

[Freight Dog]

Yeah, I heard a rumor that our MEC secretly enlisted the help of NSA/CSS, CIA, DIA, FBI and ATF to try to uncover the dark Banmiller/Chinese secrets of Aloha Airlines...

Maybe an agent of one of these agencies can chime in...

 

[Erndogg]

even after the name is released, we still have to do the same thing hal did. go through that 30-day period in court to allow other bidders to throw their plan out there, etc.

I hope these guys that are looking at buying you guys dont tie more concessions to the buyout deal! Hopefully the process is expidited and you can go on with running an airline-something Gotbumb dragged out way too long for Hal.

 

[dash8driver]

management are like stray dogs. its not a good idea to feed them because they always come back for more handouts. i'm sure before or shortly after the deal they will be back for more scraps.