Pay for Time or Training?

[utahpilot]

I had this discussion with a friend, and wanted more input from other pilots, specifically those of you who fly for 121 ops.

He paid 13,000 and logged over 300 hours with the Alpine Air FO program (http://www.alpine-air.com/fo/) He contends that his price per hour after getting paid like 10 bucks and hour or so comes to around 40 bucks or so per. For multi-time and great experience, he contends that it couldn't be better. It prepared him for real world weather, schedules, etc. all in a turbo prop.

Is that PFT, or just paying for time, as would any other wannabe regional FO who is looking to get an interview? He said that his time and resulting experience with Alpine is no comparison to the normal route of a CFI splitting 100 hours with his buddy in an Aztec, shooting approaches, doing engine out stuff, or instructing as an MEI doing the same basic stuff over and over. He also said that it was looked at favorably by the interviewer at XYZ airline, who hired him (but he's now on furlough).

1. So, is this a good way to gain experience?
2. Is this looked upon as a bad thing? Why? Why not?
3. Who is better prepared for a rigorous 121 groundschool, the
Alpine guy or the MEI with 80 ME hours dual-given?
4. All other things being equal (4 yr. degree, TT, etc.), who will get
the job?

not trying to start a PFT flame war, please. Your responses (121 folks) is much appreciated.

 

[328dude]

This is only my opinion but I first think it's stupid for some newly rated Comm pilot to go spend 30,000 or whatever bucks for a glorified KingAir ride. I have been told that HR departments of the airlines due infact frown upon such time. I think the HR junkies at these airlines would much rather see a prospective employee dig and claw his way through the ranks of instructing and always looking for larger horizans then someone thats lifts the gear handle and calls out V1 every so often. Im not trying to start flame bait here, but if I was to interview two guys side my side and were exactly the same, I would take the guy who was independant over the other guy.

Granted, the twin time looks good, but its not just the time, it's the quality of the time and were it cam from.

I actually think that a CFI has more to offer then someone spending their hard earned cash for time rather than an additional rating.
Just my 2 cents.

Bobby, chime in here please.

 

[flydog]

whore!

 

[flydog]

If you are not trying to start a PFT flame war you are off to a bad start

This topic has been beat to death in several threads. Why dont you go back an review them instead of posting more flamebait

The answer is the same as its always been. You can spin it, cook it, paint it, dress it up any way you like. Its still paying for a job you dont qualify for or PFT as the companies that sell it like to put it.

 

[flydog]

Here is one that might clarify it for you

American Airlines called me last week. For $300,000 dollars I can be an MD-80 FO for 3 years. Since Ill fly 3,000 hrs that works out to $100 an hr for an MD-80. Thats a better deal than renting an Aztec!

 

[Timebuilder]

If the $13,000 is a training contract cost which works its way down to zero over two years, that's one thing.

If paying the money entitles you to a FIXED amount of time with the company, after which another guy with $13,000 takes your place, then it is PFT, no doubt about it. You have taken the place of a person who would otherwise have to be HIRED and PAID, and would be kept on for a possible upgrade when the time came. If the operation is single pilot, and you take no FAA ride to become qualified on the aircraft, aren't you just watching?

 

[may]

I'm with fly dog!!!

I shunned the PFT, nor did I have rich parents to pay for it. I am from the era of pilots who fought that battle when comair was the place to go for PFT. I am not furloed, flying for a major, and always tip my hat at the comair guys, and have had the pleasure of tipping it to one whom I had the argument with when we were at the same level. The look on his face was priceless.

I also own a bar, if you have no bartending experience, I invite any pilot who has paid for training to come and bartend for me for free, I will give you the experience you need to land the top nightclub jobs, you'll be making the big bucks within a year or so

I don't support, but somewhat agree with the previous post, My question is,

" if you did not have access to the money, what would you do?"

 

[flydog]

The only time a professional pilot should be paying for training (job) would be if he/she were a contract pilot or looking for such work. Down in my neck of the woods there is a lot of contract corporate work and most employers only use contract pilots due to the seasonal nature of work, etc. There are many professional contract pilots that maintain their currency at Simuflite or Flight Safety on their own nickel. However those same pilots are getting $500-$800 a day for contract work and are not taking away work from more skilled or experienced pilots for little or no pay.

Dont even try to equate renting a 172 to buying a King Air job. That chicken dont fly

 

[bobbysamd]

Somebody ring?

I realize that P-F-T technically means that if you get the job you must pay for your training. This program is tantamount to P-F-T and not smart at all. Maybe worse, because the time logged may be questionable at best and bogus at worst. As stupid as I regard H.R. people to be, they are smart enough to pick up on these programs and will not give them much credence. Then, as soon as some board captain reviews your friend's logbook, he/she will pick up on it and may send your friend home.

The $13K your friend paid is a year's salary for a lot of entry-level people. If your friend had that kind of money sitting idle, he/she should have done one or more of the following: (1) spend it on a CFI, a real credential with which to earn money and gain experience; (2) put it into the bank or something where it can draw interest or earn dividends; (3) repay as much of his/her student loans as possible.

Spending that kind of money on a program which will appear questionable is not good judgment, in my .02 opinion.

Once again, I have no problem with so-called training contracts, as long as no money changes hands between the new-hire and company. I appreciate how companies invest time and money in training new pilots and want to protect that investment. Paying for your training as a condition of employment is dead wrong, for ANY industry.

 

[R8J]

Here's another one

They're just trying to take advantage of the current market situation.

http://www.frontierflying.com/intern.html

This is under "EMPLOYMENT OPPORTUNITIES"

 

[flydog]

I like the use of the word "tuition" in the ad

 

[Timebuilder]

The Quick Turn division of Simu-Flite will do an initial for the King Air C90 fo $5250.

So, you pay all that money just to fly a Navajo? What a load of C***.

 

[Saabslime]

The only time a professional pilot should be paying for training (job) would be if he/she were a contract pilot or looking for such work.

So I guess you would never go to work for Southwest?? I don't believe they fall under the defenition of contract work.

 

[R8J]

Southwest

A. Southwest doesn't care how or where you get your type.
B. You're not paying money to the company if you do buy a type.
C. You can get a 73 type along with your ATP ride, killing 2 birds
D. You can buy a type and still go to work for Delta

 

[Timebuilder]

Forgive me, but I don't believe that you will be asked to make an upfront cash payment to Southwest.

Although I don't like the idea of not being hired there without a 737 type, it isn't the same as the issue here.

There are some type providers that will do it for just a little more than that King Air initial. That type would count just as much at any 737 operator, so it can be considered a valuable professional asset.

Two weeks ago, I wished that I had a Lear 35 type, and wasn't hired because I didn't have it and another applicant did. My loss.

 

[flydog]

The type rating is not a prerequisite for hiring at Southwest. Once you are hired you must get your type. And obviously unlike all PFT programs working at Southwest is available only to those that are qualified. More qualified pilots are not being discriminated againist and the company doesnt profit from your "tuition". Not to mention the fact that their minimums are much more stringent than most airlines (1000 hr PIC turbine for example). You can get your 737 type and not be hired by SWA

If a guy wants to go out and buy every type rating in the world and then go look for work that isnt PFT. This is along the same lines of being a contract pilot. The pilot is taking the risk and putting himself in the same pool as other qualified applicants not buying a job

 

[utahpilot]

easy.....

I understand the need to flame on this subject. I'll rephrase to simplify and clarify.

My friend is (was) a CFI/MEI. The time he got was in a 135 environment flying cargo in a Beech 99. He was a required crewmember. There is no promise of a job at the end, that I know of.

During his interview at COEX, the interviewer remarked that the 300 turbine hours in a 135 op were great experience. He got the job (now on furlough).

My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?

sorry, thought I needed to clarify. I know that in the end, most folk hate this type of thing, and that's what I tried to tell him. But he argues that the airlines want you to have as much experience in operations similar to theirs, and that he has formed the opinion that it was a good move. I have students who question me about these types of programs, so I thought I'd get ya'lls input.

mahalo

 

[CaptBuzzard]

I will not and I repeat will not ever pay for training. I've paid enough to get to where I am and cannot justify paying for some turbine time or even doing a SIC program for anyone. Forget it. I am perfectly content instructing until I can get the job that I want. This is not to offend anyone who has ever paid for training at either a regional, or 135 operation, but I just won't fork out any money to work for a company. I would sign a 2-year contract or whatever at a regional that is in good standing, but not at one who I wouldn't want to be there for 2 years. But saying that, if I wouldn't want to be at a company for 2 years, I wouldn't go there. If Skywest required me to sign one, I wouldn't hesitate for one second, but some of the others I would have to think about. I personally think that I would achieve more by doing what I am doing rather than doing a SIC program for a freight company and having to pay for it. I didn't come this far to continue to pay for my work. Just my opinion, and I know others won't agree but that is why we have these message boards, so we can voice our opinions. See ya all later.

 

[Timebuilder]

Utah, you raise an interesting point. He was a required crewmmember in a 99, and was paying for that?

It's one thing when Airnet has you ride along in a Baron, learning their company, routes and procedures until PIC qualified at 1200 hours, without paying for the job, and being a real employee from day one.

It's another thing when there is no real job, and you are more passenger than pilot in an operation where you can legally log SIC time, although the aircraft is certified as single pilot. Is their operation more similar to a 121 job than instructing in a Seneca? Yes. Is his experience tainted because of the circumstances? Yes.

This makes him look like he is cutting corners to get ahead, and those who took a longer and more ethical (yes, this is a value judgement) road WILL recognize the difference. He'd be better off getting that Initial from Simu-Flite and getting hired as a REAL SIC, without the PFT stain.

My two cents, of course.

 

[R8J]

Re: easy.....

utahpilot...

I understand the need to flame on this subject. I'll rephrase to simplify and clarify.

My friend is (was) a CFI/MEI. The time he got was in a 135 environment flying cargo in a Beech 99. He was a required crewmember. There is no promise of a job at the end, that I know of.

There are operations that have people flying in the right seat with minimal training, santa claus checkrides, non-working or very few instruments for the FO. They are there in spirit, but to consider them a "crewmember" is a stretch in many cases. I'm sure there are also exceptions.

During his interview at COEX, the interviewer remarked that the 300 turbine hours in a 135 op were great experience. He got the job (now on furlough).

Of course 300 hours turbine time looks good to an interviewer. But if the interviewer has the same opinion of PFT as most people, they can just as easily shoot you down.

My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?

It probably is better experience than splitting hood time. But at what cost. Given a little more experience, and if other people weren't in line to PFT, your bud could have landed the SAME job AND gotten paid to work there. This is the problem with PFT in any form. Sometimes the shortcuts work out for people. Sometimes they dead-end.

sorry, thought I needed to clarify. I know that in the end, most folk hate this type of thing, and that's what I tried to tell him. But he argues that the airlines want you to have as much experience in operations similar to theirs, and that he has formed the opinion that it was a good move. I have students who question me about these types of programs, so I thought I'd get ya'lls input.

Does the end justify the means?

mahalo