Pay for Time or Training?

[chillidawg]

Ask any Mesa Captain

Canadfly-
Go ahead and ask any Captain at Mesa, I bet 90% of them will say that a San Juan graduate is much better qualified than the rest of the joe-schmo 172 guys sitting in the right seat. San Juan is an intensive 2 year course with an attrition rate of 50%. Real world training, not even close. Very well prepared, sharp, and motivated, you bet. San Juan in NOT pay for training, there are no promises of getting hired after successful completion of the program. I know they don't have real world experience, but take a look at Mesa's safety record. They must be doing something right.

Chilli

 

[lancair1]

chillidawg,
Are you referring to a college program, pvt to commercial program, or a post commercial program?

 

[kilomike]

Smelly stuff

My bottom tag line says it all about how I feel about pft.

Regardless of the type of program, a piece of s**t can also be called a piece of c**p and it still stinks high heaven.

I would never buy a ticket on a flight involving pft pilots. The situation makes me feel very uncomfortable. I've got Budget Rent A Car in mind for those situations where I would possibly be stuck on a pft flight. I can trust myself long before I can trust a pft scum to do something that I can do myself in a Cessna if available or a rental car if no rental aircraft are available. I am truly looking forward to aircraft ownership so I can thumb my nose at pft trash.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

Chillidawg has a point. I instructed at MAPD. For the most part, MAPD is an excellent program. Absolutely, the students are indoctrinated with Mesa line procedures and its culture (or lack thereof). The program DOES work. It is not P-F-T. It is somewhat expensive - maybe pay-through-the-nose. But, for that matter, so are its competitors.

The Commercial-Multi-Instrument earned at Mesa can be marketed anywhere. The only differences between a Mesa Commercial and elsewhere are that students don't earn a Commercial Single and don't earn a CFI. Students are only promised a chance at a Mesa interview as long as they take care of business and maintain a B average in their flight courses.

There have been students who've gone through Mesa and felt they were owed. Wrong idea. I had one student who was a real bad actor. He was known to the Chief Instructor and other instructors. I was new and got this individual. He was a bad actor with me and I told my boss. Sure 'nuff, he was denied "the interview."

I didn't like working for Mesa when I was there nine years ago, but I did like the program.

Once again, Mesa is not P-F-T.

 

[Timebuilder]

That's good!

P-T-N.

I think that's what I did!

 

[Freight Dog]

I second FlyDog....


WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There is no such thing as "required crewmember" in Beech 99.
We had SIC's in Beech 99, however they were NOT required as the plane would leave without them. Same went for Beech 1900 and SA227 "FO's" they don't show... the plane leaves without them with the right seat empty.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Ask any Mesa Captain

Canadfly-
Go ahead and ask any Captain at Mesa, I bet 90% of them will say that a San Juan graduate is much better qualified than the rest of the joe-schmo 172 guys sitting in the right seat. San Juan is an intensive 2 year course with an attrition rate of 50%. Real world training, not even close. Very well prepared, sharp, and motivated, you bet. San Juan in NOT pay for training, there are no promises of getting hired after successful completion of the program. I know they don't have real world experience, but take a look at Mesa's safety record. They must be doing something right.

Chilli

Were those girls that smacked down the ERJ back east MAPD grads?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Not saying anything new here...
As long as there is a strong desire to fly there will be people "pimping" off this desire. Whether it is PFT or the wages at the regionals. Let's face it, if non-flying people were honest with themselves they probably don't like their jobs. They only work because they have to.
Companies often try to motivate their employees to be excited and engaged about being the number one carpet maker or whatever. Don't blame the companies for trying but it is all rather boring.
Flying is one of the few jobs that a person can enjoy (although it is still work). To both fly and the potential to hit the mother lode at the majors is probably what drives most folks. However, I think the love of flying is the main motivator. There are obviously more people wanting to do this than there are jobs. Think the aviation biz people are keenly aware of this and take advantage it via PFT and/or the pay.
Can flying be classified as a disease ?

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying "disease"

Seriously, good analysis. Most people get into flying because they love it. So, they're vulnerable for the likes of Kit Darby, the pilot shortage king, and P-F-T. Therefore, people who would otherwise take no BS in a regular ("real?") job start stooping to unbelievable lows to get that flying job, build those hours, and try to get that hiring advantage.

I've seen it in broadcasting. People are bitten by the radio bug and will do nearly anything for a chance to get behind the mike and stay behind the mike. They work unbelievably ridiculous hours for unbelievably low pay and put up with unbelievable treatment. I know; I was one at one time (you out there, Timebuilder?).

Bottom line: It is a cool job, but, still, just a job. Act accordingly.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think you are right, SDF2BUF2MCO, to a degree.

Remember that quote from the sixties, "most men lead lives of quiet desperation"? For most people, any job is just work.

What most people miss is the possibility of SELF satisfaction gained from a job well done, the pursuit of excellence. Ever since I started to apply this principle in my own life, I have become much happier about anything I do, no matter the task.

As "major" flying shrinks while smaller jet flying grows (see the WSJ article on the front page of the Tuesday edition) we can expect a proportionately smaller group of young people to enter aviation as a profession, making pilots a somewhat more "scarce" commodity. For pilots who are already in the system, this is a good thing.

Some who have never flown will be dissuaded by those who had aiplanes stuck under enhanced class B, some will be frightened by the spectre of terroroism, and others will be lured to more lucrative professions.

Those of us who love to fly won't be stopped by anything. We are the core group that will define aviation for the next thirty years.

Yes, Bobby, that was me!! We were called "gophers" because we would "go fer" coffee, cigarettes, teletype, (remember teletype????) and what ever the Most High Boss Jock would require. Of course, some "gopher" functions were left to the nubile female intern......

I don't think there is such a mad rush to radio anymore, though. With the most popular shows coming from sattelite feeds, there is only a local board op and MAYBE a guy who reads three minutes of news and a sponsor bilboard. Gone are the days....