Pay for Time or Training?

[flydog]

I like the use of the word "tuition" in the ad

 

[Timebuilder]

The Quick Turn division of Simu-Flite will do an initial for the King Air C90 fo $5250.

So, you pay all that money just to fly a Navajo? What a load of C***.

 

[Saabslime]

The only time a professional pilot should be paying for training (job) would be if he/she were a contract pilot or looking for such work.

So I guess you would never go to work for Southwest?? I don't believe they fall under the defenition of contract work.

 

[R8J]

Southwest

A. Southwest doesn't care how or where you get your type.
B. You're not paying money to the company if you do buy a type.
C. You can get a 73 type along with your ATP ride, killing 2 birds
D. You can buy a type and still go to work for Delta

 

[Timebuilder]

Forgive me, but I don't believe that you will be asked to make an upfront cash payment to Southwest.

Although I don't like the idea of not being hired there without a 737 type, it isn't the same as the issue here.

There are some type providers that will do it for just a little more than that King Air initial. That type would count just as much at any 737 operator, so it can be considered a valuable professional asset.

Two weeks ago, I wished that I had a Lear 35 type, and wasn't hired because I didn't have it and another applicant did. My loss.

 

[flydog]

The type rating is not a prerequisite for hiring at Southwest. Once you are hired you must get your type. And obviously unlike all PFT programs working at Southwest is available only to those that are qualified. More qualified pilots are not being discriminated againist and the company doesnt profit from your "tuition". Not to mention the fact that their minimums are much more stringent than most airlines (1000 hr PIC turbine for example). You can get your 737 type and not be hired by SWA

If a guy wants to go out and buy every type rating in the world and then go look for work that isnt PFT. This is along the same lines of being a contract pilot. The pilot is taking the risk and putting himself in the same pool as other qualified applicants not buying a job

 

[utahpilot]

easy.....

I understand the need to flame on this subject. I'll rephrase to simplify and clarify.

My friend is (was) a CFI/MEI. The time he got was in a 135 environment flying cargo in a Beech 99. He was a required crewmember. There is no promise of a job at the end, that I know of.

During his interview at COEX, the interviewer remarked that the 300 turbine hours in a 135 op were great experience. He got the job (now on furlough).

My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?

sorry, thought I needed to clarify. I know that in the end, most folk hate this type of thing, and that's what I tried to tell him. But he argues that the airlines want you to have as much experience in operations similar to theirs, and that he has formed the opinion that it was a good move. I have students who question me about these types of programs, so I thought I'd get ya'lls input.

mahalo

 

[CaptBuzzard]

I will not and I repeat will not ever pay for training. I've paid enough to get to where I am and cannot justify paying for some turbine time or even doing a SIC program for anyone. Forget it. I am perfectly content instructing until I can get the job that I want. This is not to offend anyone who has ever paid for training at either a regional, or 135 operation, but I just won't fork out any money to work for a company. I would sign a 2-year contract or whatever at a regional that is in good standing, but not at one who I wouldn't want to be there for 2 years. But saying that, if I wouldn't want to be at a company for 2 years, I wouldn't go there. If Skywest required me to sign one, I wouldn't hesitate for one second, but some of the others I would have to think about. I personally think that I would achieve more by doing what I am doing rather than doing a SIC program for a freight company and having to pay for it. I didn't come this far to continue to pay for my work. Just my opinion, and I know others won't agree but that is why we have these message boards, so we can voice our opinions. See ya all later.

 

[Timebuilder]

Utah, you raise an interesting point. He was a required crewmmember in a 99, and was paying for that?

It's one thing when Airnet has you ride along in a Baron, learning their company, routes and procedures until PIC qualified at 1200 hours, without paying for the job, and being a real employee from day one.

It's another thing when there is no real job, and you are more passenger than pilot in an operation where you can legally log SIC time, although the aircraft is certified as single pilot. Is their operation more similar to a 121 job than instructing in a Seneca? Yes. Is his experience tainted because of the circumstances? Yes.

This makes him look like he is cutting corners to get ahead, and those who took a longer and more ethical (yes, this is a value judgement) road WILL recognize the difference. He'd be better off getting that Initial from Simu-Flite and getting hired as a REAL SIC, without the PFT stain.

My two cents, of course.

 

[R8J]

Re: easy.....

utahpilot...

I understand the need to flame on this subject. I'll rephrase to simplify and clarify.

My friend is (was) a CFI/MEI. The time he got was in a 135 environment flying cargo in a Beech 99. He was a required crewmember. There is no promise of a job at the end, that I know of.

There are operations that have people flying in the right seat with minimal training, santa claus checkrides, non-working or very few instruments for the FO. They are there in spirit, but to consider them a "crewmember" is a stretch in many cases. I'm sure there are also exceptions.

During his interview at COEX, the interviewer remarked that the 300 turbine hours in a 135 op were great experience. He got the job (now on furlough).

Of course 300 hours turbine time looks good to an interviewer. But if the interviewer has the same opinion of PFT as most people, they can just as easily shoot you down.

My question was, (taken from his statements) aren't 300 turbine hours flying cargo in weather and in a real world ATC environment more similar to the 121 job he seeks? Doesn't that, therefore, make for better experience for someone trying to improve his skills in order to move on from instructing to the airlines? Doesn't the experience gained in the Beech far outweigh the experience one could get splitting hood time with a buddy in a light twin?

It probably is better experience than splitting hood time. But at what cost. Given a little more experience, and if other people weren't in line to PFT, your bud could have landed the SAME job AND gotten paid to work there. This is the problem with PFT in any form. Sometimes the shortcuts work out for people. Sometimes they dead-end.

sorry, thought I needed to clarify. I know that in the end, most folk hate this type of thing, and that's what I tried to tell him. But he argues that the airlines want you to have as much experience in operations similar to theirs, and that he has formed the opinion that it was a good move. I have students who question me about these types of programs, so I thought I'd get ya'lls input.

Does the end justify the means?

mahalo