Pay for Time or Training?

[canadflyau]

Timebuilder-
What I am getting at with that statement was, everyone draws there own ethical line in the sand.. Some guys call the All ATPS and these other companies "pilot factories" and say the training isn't worth anything with the CFI logging in the back seat, a safety pilot in the right seat and someone under the hood in the left. What I am saying is that everyone is getting to the job in their own way, and to say that my route that is different than what someone else is taking is wrong.. I just don't buy it.

Here is a specific example. When my dad was FO on the F-100 at AMR he flew with a captain who was a multi-millionaire from ATL. His family owns a little company called Georgia Pacific. Since he basically set the company up to run itself he was bored. He got very involved in his companies corp aviation department. He then decided to do "whatever it takes to get to the big iron." and I quote him. Now, I am unable to get to where he is the way he is. I don't believe he did anything wrong by buying his own little jet to get the flight time he needed to get on with American in the shortest amount of time.

However, I do believe if it is damaging to our profession (taking steps back not forward) then our Union, who should be overseeing out entire profession should be fighting it to protect the unknowing individual. Until I hear that this Alpine Air is required by the FAA to have a qualified SIC on-board, I am not going to cast a blanket against a pilot who feels that way is his/her fastest route to realizing their dream until I hear differently. But even then its ALPA I believe that should step up and address the situation (am I a dreamer or what, LOL!!)

 

[canadflyau]

Good question timebuilder

I think (but personally have no 135 experience) that on a 135 flight you must have a 135 SIC checkride to serve as an SIC, then and only then you can log the flight time regardless of the certification (single pilot) of the airplane.. however an SIC would not be required for the operation but you could have one... please correct me?

 

[Timebuilder]

>>What I am getting at with that statement was, everyone draws there own ethical line in the sand.. Some guys call the All ATPS and these other companies "pilot factories" and say the training isn't worth anything with the CFI logging in the back seat, a safety pilot in the right seat and someone under the hood in the left. What I am saying is that everyone is getting to the job in their own way, and to say that my route that is different than what someone else is taking is wrong.. I just don't buy it.

True. Ethics, as a discipline, has come to embrace a more "situational" approach in recent decades. An ethical decision is on its most solid ground when it is based on the best standards of a society as a whole, such as a support for life and happiness. In the context of aviation, a personal decision which compromises the business as a whole, and working pilots in particular, needs additional scrutiny. The individual needs to consider if the ends are really able to justify the means, taking the Big Picture into the decision.

Pilot factories, and according to my info, ALL ATPS, don't give AMEL instruction from the back seat. Some operators do this, and it too is frowned upon my most MEI's. I know I don't feel like I would be fulfilling my responsibilities for the safety of the flight if I was unable to take the flight controls in an emergency.

If the instruction is simply multiengine instrument, and both pilots are multi certified, that is a different matter. Even the safety pilot can learn from the ATC conversations and instructor verbal guidance. While unconventional, this doesn't approach the questions surrounding PFT.

Others may correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that having passed an SIC checkride makes the time loggable as SIC time, unless the SIC requirements such as 61.51 f (1) and (2) are met. I'm not sure how the FAA views all of the nuances of the phrase "the regulations under which the flight is being conducted". My guess is that holding the SIC paperwork doesn't in itself fulfill that requirement.

 

[canadflyau]

A difference

Timebuilder:"Pilot factories, and according to my info, ALL ATPS, don't give AMEL instruction from the back seat. Some operators do this, and it too is frowned upon my most MEI's. I know I don't feel like I would be fulfilling my responsibilities for the safety of the flight if I was unable to take the flight controls in an emergency.
If the instruction is simply multiengine instrument, and both pilots are multi certified, that is a different matter. Even the safety pilot can learn from the ATC conversations and instructor verbal guidance. While unconventional, this doesn't approach the questions surrounding PFT."

The 135 logging issue.. seems like we are all unclear. I simply feel that if they have set up a program to train that is not preventing a required qualified applicant from sitting in the right seat and being paid, go for it! What great experience.

However, the three people in the cockpit logging time (and its not a 727) is a perfect example (and I wasn't picking on All ATP's) but just using "pilot factories" as they are called as a similar debate. I personally have no problem with these so called pilot factories. I instructed with one of their products and he was great. However, there are some people who refuse to fly with someone who chose that style of training. They unfoundedly claim this pilot "bought his ratings."

The debate of 3 people logging time, call your FSDO you'll get differing views from them. This serves as a perfect example of our pilot mentalities, one of us would have to be right or wrong and be debated until blue in the face, just like this PFT debate. My personal view is it is not acceptable, so I personally would not do it when teaching any of my students. (Call me a control freak,LOL!)

The basic question.. is it pay for a job or pay for training. Paying for a job, clearly wrong in my mind and I feel ALPA should do their best to rid these practices for the best of our profession.

"Ethics, as a discipline, has come to embrace a more "situational" approach in recent decades"
I couldn't agree with statement anymore! Thats why I write the line is in the sand.. changing with every situation. Bravo Timebuilder!

Later!

 

[Timebuilder]

>>The 135 logging issue.. seems like we are all unclear. I simply feel that if they have set up a program to train that is not preventing a required qualified applicant from sitting in the right seat and being paid, go for it! What great experience.

The logging of SIC time is set out in the aforementioned part of 14CFR. The actual answer will vary from carrier to carrier, as some company's have clearly been granted two-crew status in what would normally be single pilot aircraft, and AirNet is a good example. Do a great many companies have this regulatory status? I doubt it.

The PFT issue comes into play whenever someone is paying to be occupying a seat in a cockpit for a revenue generating flight. If that were not so, the carrier would have to hire and pay a qualified pilot, just as I was for the Navajo copilot job I once had. Setting up a training program by a school is one thing. Taking money from a pilot in order to advance the safety of your operation where you would otherwise have to hire a pilot is the other.

 

[bobbysamd]

Situational ethics

I appreciate Timebuilder touching on "situational ethics." Whatever is right in the situation. The end justifies the means.

Let me give you an example of situational ethics. Let's say you have no money and haven't eaten in three days. You're in a grocery store. You are in the produce aisle and no one is around and you see no TV camera lenses poking out from the ceiling. Do you take an apple and eat it? Once again, you have no money. Many people would do just that because (1) they figure the store won't miss one apple and/or (2) they're hungry and that is more important than being a thief, so that makes it all right to rip off an apple from the grocery store. Well, maybe the grocery store won't miss the apple and you're not hungry, but how does that affect society as a whole? Maybe you don't care, but others do.

So, let's say I'm a pilot and am qualified for the commuters. I am not out of work but want to go to work very badly for a commuter. However, jobs are tight and I cannot interest a commuter in my quals and experience. In fact, people with lesser quals are being hired. I really could care less about seniority because flying for a regional is all I ever set out to do in aviation. If I drop $7K to SleazeAir, I will get an interview, training and a job. I have the bread, so going into debt is not an issue. Do I pay the $7K and buy the job?

I guess I would ask myself if any job is worth paying for. I would ask myself how I would feel about knowing that I am as qualified if not more so than other applicants who've been hired for free and I paid for my job. I was confronted with such questions ten years ago. The commuters were paying just as lousy as they do know. I asked myself if it was worth sacrifcing my self esteem and values to pay for what might be a cool but a poorly-paying job. I asked myself if I would do the same if I were still in radio. Bottom line, it was a job, a cool job, maybe, but still, just a job. I thought to myself, there's nothing the matter with me. I have worth. I am capable and hard-working and can contribute to any employer. Paying for a job is tantamount to groveling and I don't need to grovel for what boils down to be a very poorly-paying job, at least at the beginning and for some time thereafter. That's how I analyzed P-F-T. Maybe others don't mind if they grovel to get that job, but what kind of message does that send to generally anti-pilot management? Think about it.

I also asked myself, how I would feel if I encountered someone who bought his job or was otherwise unqualified but got the job. I faced that situation many times when I was in radio. I found that I always resented people who were less-qualified than me when they were hired. I always wondered how they got a job that I had to struggle to get.

I realize there will always be people who get jobs because their parents are neighbors of the chief pilot, or because Dad sees the CEO at the country club. That's not entirely fair, either, but not much can be done about that. Still, it is not fair that the size of one's wallet might be the sole qualifier of getting a job. Believe me, others will know and will resent it and resent you.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[canadflyau]

Paying for training vs. Paying for a job

Timebuilder, where did you find a job as co-pilot in a Navajo? Did they have you to lower the insurance premiums? Was the PIC limited on his/her lic?

I need a job like that!! That would beat the heck out of my cubical!

 

[Ned]

Drop it

Boy has this topic been beat to death. The issue is not is PFT bad, but how low is it ok to stoop. I find it annoying that you people will take a regional job for 20K a year. If no one took the job then they might pay a reasonable wage. But you guys take the jobs, the pay stinks, and it is what it is. So lay off those guys who PFT, sure they are stooping lower than you would, but there are lots of people who find any regional FO just as guilty of lowering industry standards.

Keeping my desk job and wishing it were a lot harder to get a pilot's license!

 

[Timebuilder]

I was hired by some folks who knew me as a student several years ago, at another airport.

The chief pilot was my DE for my private, and the PIC had been my multi instructor.

My presence in the airplane was by customer request, for which they paid an extra fee. I imagine the insurance company saw me as an asset: experienced multi and instrument instructor, second pair of eyes, radio operator to free up the flying pilot for greater concentration.

While the 135 legs were not loggable, I enjoyed the extra pay and the class B experience. The part 91 dead legs were a teriffic plus. The insurance company only specified that the PIC fly in the left seat. As an MEI, I was already comfortable in the right seat, so it worked out well. I feel it helps me in the Lear, too.

To summarize, this isn't a job you get by faxing an app. It was a matter of networking. In the case of the Lear, I had a captain's name to mention in my cover letter.

Talk with people. Be friendly. Ask questions that allow others to share their positive job qualities with you. Let them know that you would love to have a job like that. In this case, unfortunately, the Navajos have been sold.

 

[Timebuilder]

Since new pilots join our ranks, not to mention this webite, on a dialy basis we will probably review this topic regularly, along with ALPA, security, scope, equipment, accidents, regulations, etc.

When you tire of a topic, do what I do.

Don't click.

 

[chillidawg]

Ask any Mesa Captain

Canadfly-
Go ahead and ask any Captain at Mesa, I bet 90% of them will say that a San Juan graduate is much better qualified than the rest of the joe-schmo 172 guys sitting in the right seat. San Juan is an intensive 2 year course with an attrition rate of 50%. Real world training, not even close. Very well prepared, sharp, and motivated, you bet. San Juan in NOT pay for training, there are no promises of getting hired after successful completion of the program. I know they don't have real world experience, but take a look at Mesa's safety record. They must be doing something right.

Chilli

 

[lancair1]

chillidawg,
Are you referring to a college program, pvt to commercial program, or a post commercial program?

 

[kilomike]

Smelly stuff

My bottom tag line says it all about how I feel about pft.

Regardless of the type of program, a piece of s**t can also be called a piece of c**p and it still stinks high heaven.

I would never buy a ticket on a flight involving pft pilots. The situation makes me feel very uncomfortable. I've got Budget Rent A Car in mind for those situations where I would possibly be stuck on a pft flight. I can trust myself long before I can trust a pft scum to do something that I can do myself in a Cessna if available or a rental car if no rental aircraft are available. I am truly looking forward to aircraft ownership so I can thumb my nose at pft trash.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

Chillidawg has a point. I instructed at MAPD. For the most part, MAPD is an excellent program. Absolutely, the students are indoctrinated with Mesa line procedures and its culture (or lack thereof). The program DOES work. It is not P-F-T. It is somewhat expensive - maybe pay-through-the-nose. But, for that matter, so are its competitors.

The Commercial-Multi-Instrument earned at Mesa can be marketed anywhere. The only differences between a Mesa Commercial and elsewhere are that students don't earn a Commercial Single and don't earn a CFI. Students are only promised a chance at a Mesa interview as long as they take care of business and maintain a B average in their flight courses.

There have been students who've gone through Mesa and felt they were owed. Wrong idea. I had one student who was a real bad actor. He was known to the Chief Instructor and other instructors. I was new and got this individual. He was a bad actor with me and I told my boss. Sure 'nuff, he was denied "the interview."

I didn't like working for Mesa when I was there nine years ago, but I did like the program.

Once again, Mesa is not P-F-T.

 

[Timebuilder]

That's good!

P-T-N.

I think that's what I did!

 

[Freight Dog]

I second FlyDog....


WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There is no such thing as "required crewmember" in Beech 99.
We had SIC's in Beech 99, however they were NOT required as the plane would leave without them. Same went for Beech 1900 and SA227 "FO's" they don't show... the plane leaves without them with the right seat empty.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Ask any Mesa Captain

Canadfly-
Go ahead and ask any Captain at Mesa, I bet 90% of them will say that a San Juan graduate is much better qualified than the rest of the joe-schmo 172 guys sitting in the right seat. San Juan is an intensive 2 year course with an attrition rate of 50%. Real world training, not even close. Very well prepared, sharp, and motivated, you bet. San Juan in NOT pay for training, there are no promises of getting hired after successful completion of the program. I know they don't have real world experience, but take a look at Mesa's safety record. They must be doing something right.

Chilli

Were those girls that smacked down the ERJ back east MAPD grads?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Not saying anything new here...
As long as there is a strong desire to fly there will be people "pimping" off this desire. Whether it is PFT or the wages at the regionals. Let's face it, if non-flying people were honest with themselves they probably don't like their jobs. They only work because they have to.
Companies often try to motivate their employees to be excited and engaged about being the number one carpet maker or whatever. Don't blame the companies for trying but it is all rather boring.
Flying is one of the few jobs that a person can enjoy (although it is still work). To both fly and the potential to hit the mother lode at the majors is probably what drives most folks. However, I think the love of flying is the main motivator. There are obviously more people wanting to do this than there are jobs. Think the aviation biz people are keenly aware of this and take advantage it via PFT and/or the pay.
Can flying be classified as a disease ?

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying "disease"

Seriously, good analysis. Most people get into flying because they love it. So, they're vulnerable for the likes of Kit Darby, the pilot shortage king, and P-F-T. Therefore, people who would otherwise take no BS in a regular ("real?") job start stooping to unbelievable lows to get that flying job, build those hours, and try to get that hiring advantage.

I've seen it in broadcasting. People are bitten by the radio bug and will do nearly anything for a chance to get behind the mike and stay behind the mike. They work unbelievably ridiculous hours for unbelievably low pay and put up with unbelievable treatment. I know; I was one at one time (you out there, Timebuilder?).

Bottom line: It is a cool job, but, still, just a job. Act accordingly.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think you are right, SDF2BUF2MCO, to a degree.

Remember that quote from the sixties, "most men lead lives of quiet desperation"? For most people, any job is just work.

What most people miss is the possibility of SELF satisfaction gained from a job well done, the pursuit of excellence. Ever since I started to apply this principle in my own life, I have become much happier about anything I do, no matter the task.

As "major" flying shrinks while smaller jet flying grows (see the WSJ article on the front page of the Tuesday edition) we can expect a proportionately smaller group of young people to enter aviation as a profession, making pilots a somewhat more "scarce" commodity. For pilots who are already in the system, this is a good thing.

Some who have never flown will be dissuaded by those who had aiplanes stuck under enhanced class B, some will be frightened by the spectre of terroroism, and others will be lured to more lucrative professions.

Those of us who love to fly won't be stopped by anything. We are the core group that will define aviation for the next thirty years.

Yes, Bobby, that was me!! We were called "gophers" because we would "go fer" coffee, cigarettes, teletype, (remember teletype????) and what ever the Most High Boss Jock would require. Of course, some "gopher" functions were left to the nubile female intern......

I don't think there is such a mad rush to radio anymore, though. With the most popular shows coming from sattelite feeds, there is only a local board op and MAYBE a guy who reads three minutes of news and a sponsor bilboard. Gone are the days....

 

[bobbysamd]

"Golden" age of radio

I do remember teletype. I remember the old-fashioned console machines that made that wonderful clattering noise, as well as the machines that were electronic and sat atop a table.

We can thank deregulation, in part, for the shrinkage in radio jobs, not that there were so many jobs to begin with, just like aviation........

PS-Yep, I remember changing teletype ribbons. They had this messy purple ink. At least we had electric typewriters in our newsroom at my last radio station, but I digress...................

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Timebuilder, yes doing a good job is the honorable thing to do. There is a lot of "what's in it for me" attitude whether it be from excutives to hourly folks. Most people though don't like their jobs or tolerate them at best. Probably why the lottery is so popular.
The entertainment biz (sports, music, acting) is another good example of people willing to do almost anything to make it. Similar to aviation.
Bobby, agree people need to set realistic expectations and don't allow themselves to be taken advantage of. The passion to fly can blind a person's judgement as well as zap their personal finances.
I agree with the glut of pilots and fewer jobs that future aviators may look for other work. Also think that the next generation of commercial aircraft will be with one person cockpits which means less pilot jobs. That is another debate...

 

[de727ups]

Teletype

You guys laugh about teletype....when I worked at LAX TRACON in the mid 80's, we had the FDEP (flight data entry and processing) machines....they were all teletype and this was the FAA. All flight data strips were printed with a teletype in those days....they have high speed printers now....progress is slow in the FAA.

 

[Timebuilder]

Have you notice how many "all news, all the time" stations still have an endless loop running under the announcer with telepye FX?
We got rid of our "clacker" teletype, the 80 lb black monster, back in 1983. The dot-matrix printer lacked the charm of the old machine, along with those messy ribbon changes...

 

[wil]

Don't you realize that your logbook will be scrutinized by another pilot? Probably the Chief? All you guys trying to short cut will be sorry in the lond run- BTW, we have US Air and United pilots in training right now at ASA- think you will be competitve with time you bought in the right seat?

 

[TurboS7]

Man you guys are crazy. I had a friend of my brothers call me last night. It had been recommended to him to go to XYZ flight school for 45k to 60K he could get all of his ratings and maybe land a right seat job at 8 to 10K per year. Where do you guys get this kind of money and when and how do you expect to pay it back. I have been in this business thirty years and the money that all you guys are counting on just isn't there. It is a long way to the top and most never make it. For every person that makes it to a major airline there are 15 to 20 that never make it. My recomendation, get your ratings as cheap as possible. The only rating I would spend money on would be my instrument and multi-engine. Going through a quality 141 school for those two would be well worth it. The ride to the "top" is fun, don't ruin it by being so financially strapped that you can't enjoy it. Now if you have a rich great uncle or you have won the lottery or you are from an oil rich part of the world, this word doesn't apply-have fun-pay some of your buddies bills along the way. Happy flying.
For those that are just getting started a flying club is a wonderful way to get experience time and your ratings. It also gets you involved with the management of aircraft, an art in itself.

 

[rumpletumbler]

From someone inexperienced I can definitely say that the general consensus is PAY YOUR DUES. I've had people get mad because I had about 70 hours in Merlins and had never instructed. I'd gone in the wrong order. The last company I worked for the director of ops would say "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?" everytime he saw me at the airport as if I didn't even deserve to be on one. The only time I flew with him was just an around the pattern test flight in a Citation and when I asked if I could fly one of the trips around his reply was "HELL NO!" He then tried to make me out to be an idiot by skewing the aircraft around in sharp turns with low fuel and when the low fuel annunciator would light he would point to the fuel flow gauge. I pointed that out and thought he would quit but after takeoff he turned on the autopilot on upwind and pretended to have a stuck yoke. Work had been done on the trim and he knew I had paid special attention to that on the preflight. He asked for help pushing the yoke forward and I saw that he wasn't pushing but did have his hand resting on the yoke so I played along and tried to be wide eyed but the aircraft wasn't in any danger so I let go rather than disengage the autopilot to see what he would do. He then said it was ok after disengaging and I asked several times more if he still wanted help and he kept saying "no." Never did he tell me about this little trick nor did I tell him that I knew what he did. I wanted to see how he would respond. He probably wanted to see how I would. Anyhow the gist is that he didn't think I was a pilot because I was low time and hadn't paid the dues to be flying a citation. I agree with him to a point but don't think that treating someone badly is ok because they took what they thought would be a great learning experience job that was offered to them. Mine was a job. I was being paid. It really doesn't matter I don't think if you PFT etc. if you haven't "paid your dues" then watch out and expect to be mistreated.

RT

 

[Ty Webb]

Sounds to me like you are putting up with abuse in order to put hours in your logbook that are nearly worthless.

First of all, a Merlin doesn;t require an SIC, so if you are logging time in it, it must be as PIC. Interviewers know that there is no way in hell that you are actually the de facto PIC on the airplane; the insurance company would never allow it- not without serious time in type and factory-approved simulator-based training.

If you are logging PIC (or SIC) time in an airplane, you had better be prepared to answer questions regarding the limitations, normal, abnormal and emergency procedures, the memory items on the emergency checklists, etc. Fail this, and you fail the interview- pretty simple.

As for the Citation- if you were serving as SIC, you had better have complied with 61.55. If not, if you were just along for the ride, did you log it? If so, see above.

Long story short- getting time in advanced aircraft is fine, if you are trained and really flying it. If you are simply riding along and putting up with the bizarre stuff you have described, you are only hurting yourself.

 

[mcjohn]

CFI is nice thing to fall back on. I wouldn't be comfortable doing one of the PFT programs with out having a little CFI experience to fall back on in case they took all my money and kicked me to the street.

 

[shamrock]

McJohn

So after starting several PFT discussions you've now resorted to resurrecting two and a half year old threads to keep the debate going?

How's this. I hearby give you permission to PFT. It would be an absolutely fabulous idea for someone in your position, and anyone who says it isn't is just jealous because the didn't think of it or couldn't afford it. You will have no trouble whatsoever in the future as a result of paying for a job, despite what others might say. Again, they're just jealous that you have the opportunity to PFT. By doing so, you are giving yourself a leg up on them in the pursuit of that much sought after $18K a year RJ job, and for that I applaude you. Whatever it takes, right? You are obviously intelligent enough to see those that advise you to stay away from PFT for who they really are, petty, misguided, and envious souls bent on undermining you career before it even begins.

Go forth my son and PFT!!!!! It's your DENSITY!!!!!!



That's the advice you're looking for, isn't it?