Pay for Time or Training?

[chillidawg]

Ask any Mesa Captain

Canadfly-
Go ahead and ask any Captain at Mesa, I bet 90% of them will say that a San Juan graduate is much better qualified than the rest of the joe-schmo 172 guys sitting in the right seat. San Juan is an intensive 2 year course with an attrition rate of 50%. Real world training, not even close. Very well prepared, sharp, and motivated, you bet. San Juan in NOT pay for training, there are no promises of getting hired after successful completion of the program. I know they don't have real world experience, but take a look at Mesa's safety record. They must be doing something right.

Chilli

 

[lancair1]

chillidawg,
Are you referring to a college program, pvt to commercial program, or a post commercial program?

 

[kilomike]

Smelly stuff

My bottom tag line says it all about how I feel about pft.

Regardless of the type of program, a piece of s**t can also be called a piece of c**p and it still stinks high heaven.

I would never buy a ticket on a flight involving pft pilots. The situation makes me feel very uncomfortable. I've got Budget Rent A Car in mind for those situations where I would possibly be stuck on a pft flight. I can trust myself long before I can trust a pft scum to do something that I can do myself in a Cessna if available or a rental car if no rental aircraft are available. I am truly looking forward to aircraft ownership so I can thumb my nose at pft trash.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

Chillidawg has a point. I instructed at MAPD. For the most part, MAPD is an excellent program. Absolutely, the students are indoctrinated with Mesa line procedures and its culture (or lack thereof). The program DOES work. It is not P-F-T. It is somewhat expensive - maybe pay-through-the-nose. But, for that matter, so are its competitors.

The Commercial-Multi-Instrument earned at Mesa can be marketed anywhere. The only differences between a Mesa Commercial and elsewhere are that students don't earn a Commercial Single and don't earn a CFI. Students are only promised a chance at a Mesa interview as long as they take care of business and maintain a B average in their flight courses.

There have been students who've gone through Mesa and felt they were owed. Wrong idea. I had one student who was a real bad actor. He was known to the Chief Instructor and other instructors. I was new and got this individual. He was a bad actor with me and I told my boss. Sure 'nuff, he was denied "the interview."

I didn't like working for Mesa when I was there nine years ago, but I did like the program.

Once again, Mesa is not P-F-T.

 

[Timebuilder]

That's good!

P-T-N.

I think that's what I did!

 

[Freight Dog]

I second FlyDog....


WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There is no such thing as "required crewmember" in Beech 99.
We had SIC's in Beech 99, however they were NOT required as the plane would leave without them. Same went for Beech 1900 and SA227 "FO's" they don't show... the plane leaves without them with the right seat empty.

 

[Freight Dog]

Re: Ask any Mesa Captain

Canadfly-
Go ahead and ask any Captain at Mesa, I bet 90% of them will say that a San Juan graduate is much better qualified than the rest of the joe-schmo 172 guys sitting in the right seat. San Juan is an intensive 2 year course with an attrition rate of 50%. Real world training, not even close. Very well prepared, sharp, and motivated, you bet. San Juan in NOT pay for training, there are no promises of getting hired after successful completion of the program. I know they don't have real world experience, but take a look at Mesa's safety record. They must be doing something right.

Chilli

Were those girls that smacked down the ERJ back east MAPD grads?

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Not saying anything new here...
As long as there is a strong desire to fly there will be people "pimping" off this desire. Whether it is PFT or the wages at the regionals. Let's face it, if non-flying people were honest with themselves they probably don't like their jobs. They only work because they have to.
Companies often try to motivate their employees to be excited and engaged about being the number one carpet maker or whatever. Don't blame the companies for trying but it is all rather boring.
Flying is one of the few jobs that a person can enjoy (although it is still work). To both fly and the potential to hit the mother lode at the majors is probably what drives most folks. However, I think the love of flying is the main motivator. There are obviously more people wanting to do this than there are jobs. Think the aviation biz people are keenly aware of this and take advantage it via PFT and/or the pay.
Can flying be classified as a disease ?

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying "disease"

Seriously, good analysis. Most people get into flying because they love it. So, they're vulnerable for the likes of Kit Darby, the pilot shortage king, and P-F-T. Therefore, people who would otherwise take no BS in a regular ("real?") job start stooping to unbelievable lows to get that flying job, build those hours, and try to get that hiring advantage.

I've seen it in broadcasting. People are bitten by the radio bug and will do nearly anything for a chance to get behind the mike and stay behind the mike. They work unbelievably ridiculous hours for unbelievably low pay and put up with unbelievable treatment. I know; I was one at one time (you out there, Timebuilder?).

Bottom line: It is a cool job, but, still, just a job. Act accordingly.

 

[Timebuilder]

I think you are right, SDF2BUF2MCO, to a degree.

Remember that quote from the sixties, "most men lead lives of quiet desperation"? For most people, any job is just work.

What most people miss is the possibility of SELF satisfaction gained from a job well done, the pursuit of excellence. Ever since I started to apply this principle in my own life, I have become much happier about anything I do, no matter the task.

As "major" flying shrinks while smaller jet flying grows (see the WSJ article on the front page of the Tuesday edition) we can expect a proportionately smaller group of young people to enter aviation as a profession, making pilots a somewhat more "scarce" commodity. For pilots who are already in the system, this is a good thing.

Some who have never flown will be dissuaded by those who had aiplanes stuck under enhanced class B, some will be frightened by the spectre of terroroism, and others will be lured to more lucrative professions.

Those of us who love to fly won't be stopped by anything. We are the core group that will define aviation for the next thirty years.

Yes, Bobby, that was me!! We were called "gophers" because we would "go fer" coffee, cigarettes, teletype, (remember teletype????) and what ever the Most High Boss Jock would require. Of course, some "gopher" functions were left to the nubile female intern......

I don't think there is such a mad rush to radio anymore, though. With the most popular shows coming from sattelite feeds, there is only a local board op and MAYBE a guy who reads three minutes of news and a sponsor bilboard. Gone are the days....

 

[bobbysamd]

"Golden" age of radio

I do remember teletype. I remember the old-fashioned console machines that made that wonderful clattering noise, as well as the machines that were electronic and sat atop a table.

We can thank deregulation, in part, for the shrinkage in radio jobs, not that there were so many jobs to begin with, just like aviation........

PS-Yep, I remember changing teletype ribbons. They had this messy purple ink. At least we had electric typewriters in our newsroom at my last radio station, but I digress...................

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Timebuilder, yes doing a good job is the honorable thing to do. There is a lot of "what's in it for me" attitude whether it be from excutives to hourly folks. Most people though don't like their jobs or tolerate them at best. Probably why the lottery is so popular.
The entertainment biz (sports, music, acting) is another good example of people willing to do almost anything to make it. Similar to aviation.
Bobby, agree people need to set realistic expectations and don't allow themselves to be taken advantage of. The passion to fly can blind a person's judgement as well as zap their personal finances.
I agree with the glut of pilots and fewer jobs that future aviators may look for other work. Also think that the next generation of commercial aircraft will be with one person cockpits which means less pilot jobs. That is another debate...

 

[de727ups]

Teletype

You guys laugh about teletype....when I worked at LAX TRACON in the mid 80's, we had the FDEP (flight data entry and processing) machines....they were all teletype and this was the FAA. All flight data strips were printed with a teletype in those days....they have high speed printers now....progress is slow in the FAA.

 

[Timebuilder]

Have you notice how many "all news, all the time" stations still have an endless loop running under the announcer with telepye FX?
We got rid of our "clacker" teletype, the 80 lb black monster, back in 1983. The dot-matrix printer lacked the charm of the old machine, along with those messy ribbon changes...

 

[wil]

Don't you realize that your logbook will be scrutinized by another pilot? Probably the Chief? All you guys trying to short cut will be sorry in the lond run- BTW, we have US Air and United pilots in training right now at ASA- think you will be competitve with time you bought in the right seat?

 

[TurboS7]

Man you guys are crazy. I had a friend of my brothers call me last night. It had been recommended to him to go to XYZ flight school for 45k to 60K he could get all of his ratings and maybe land a right seat job at 8 to 10K per year. Where do you guys get this kind of money and when and how do you expect to pay it back. I have been in this business thirty years and the money that all you guys are counting on just isn't there. It is a long way to the top and most never make it. For every person that makes it to a major airline there are 15 to 20 that never make it. My recomendation, get your ratings as cheap as possible. The only rating I would spend money on would be my instrument and multi-engine. Going through a quality 141 school for those two would be well worth it. The ride to the "top" is fun, don't ruin it by being so financially strapped that you can't enjoy it. Now if you have a rich great uncle or you have won the lottery or you are from an oil rich part of the world, this word doesn't apply-have fun-pay some of your buddies bills along the way. Happy flying.
For those that are just getting started a flying club is a wonderful way to get experience time and your ratings. It also gets you involved with the management of aircraft, an art in itself.

 

[rumpletumbler]

From someone inexperienced I can definitely say that the general consensus is PAY YOUR DUES. I've had people get mad because I had about 70 hours in Merlins and had never instructed. I'd gone in the wrong order. The last company I worked for the director of ops would say "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?" everytime he saw me at the airport as if I didn't even deserve to be on one. The only time I flew with him was just an around the pattern test flight in a Citation and when I asked if I could fly one of the trips around his reply was "HELL NO!" He then tried to make me out to be an idiot by skewing the aircraft around in sharp turns with low fuel and when the low fuel annunciator would light he would point to the fuel flow gauge. I pointed that out and thought he would quit but after takeoff he turned on the autopilot on upwind and pretended to have a stuck yoke. Work had been done on the trim and he knew I had paid special attention to that on the preflight. He asked for help pushing the yoke forward and I saw that he wasn't pushing but did have his hand resting on the yoke so I played along and tried to be wide eyed but the aircraft wasn't in any danger so I let go rather than disengage the autopilot to see what he would do. He then said it was ok after disengaging and I asked several times more if he still wanted help and he kept saying "no." Never did he tell me about this little trick nor did I tell him that I knew what he did. I wanted to see how he would respond. He probably wanted to see how I would. Anyhow the gist is that he didn't think I was a pilot because I was low time and hadn't paid the dues to be flying a citation. I agree with him to a point but don't think that treating someone badly is ok because they took what they thought would be a great learning experience job that was offered to them. Mine was a job. I was being paid. It really doesn't matter I don't think if you PFT etc. if you haven't "paid your dues" then watch out and expect to be mistreated.

RT

 

[Ty Webb]

Sounds to me like you are putting up with abuse in order to put hours in your logbook that are nearly worthless.

First of all, a Merlin doesn;t require an SIC, so if you are logging time in it, it must be as PIC. Interviewers know that there is no way in hell that you are actually the de facto PIC on the airplane; the insurance company would never allow it- not without serious time in type and factory-approved simulator-based training.

If you are logging PIC (or SIC) time in an airplane, you had better be prepared to answer questions regarding the limitations, normal, abnormal and emergency procedures, the memory items on the emergency checklists, etc. Fail this, and you fail the interview- pretty simple.

As for the Citation- if you were serving as SIC, you had better have complied with 61.55. If not, if you were just along for the ride, did you log it? If so, see above.

Long story short- getting time in advanced aircraft is fine, if you are trained and really flying it. If you are simply riding along and putting up with the bizarre stuff you have described, you are only hurting yourself.

 

[mcjohn]

CFI is nice thing to fall back on. I wouldn't be comfortable doing one of the PFT programs with out having a little CFI experience to fall back on in case they took all my money and kicked me to the street.

 

[shamrock]

McJohn

So after starting several PFT discussions you've now resorted to resurrecting two and a half year old threads to keep the debate going?

How's this. I hearby give you permission to PFT. It would be an absolutely fabulous idea for someone in your position, and anyone who says it isn't is just jealous because the didn't think of it or couldn't afford it. You will have no trouble whatsoever in the future as a result of paying for a job, despite what others might say. Again, they're just jealous that you have the opportunity to PFT. By doing so, you are giving yourself a leg up on them in the pursuit of that much sought after $18K a year RJ job, and for that I applaude you. Whatever it takes, right? You are obviously intelligent enough to see those that advise you to stay away from PFT for who they really are, petty, misguided, and envious souls bent on undermining you career before it even begins.

Go forth my son and PFT!!!!! It's your DENSITY!!!!!!



That's the advice you're looking for, isn't it?