Pay for Time or Training?

[canadflyau]

Timebuilder-
What I am getting at with that statement was, everyone draws there own ethical line in the sand.. Some guys call the All ATPS and these other companies "pilot factories" and say the training isn't worth anything with the CFI logging in the back seat, a safety pilot in the right seat and someone under the hood in the left. What I am saying is that everyone is getting to the job in their own way, and to say that my route that is different than what someone else is taking is wrong.. I just don't buy it.

Here is a specific example. When my dad was FO on the F-100 at AMR he flew with a captain who was a multi-millionaire from ATL. His family owns a little company called Georgia Pacific. Since he basically set the company up to run itself he was bored. He got very involved in his companies corp aviation department. He then decided to do "whatever it takes to get to the big iron." and I quote him. Now, I am unable to get to where he is the way he is. I don't believe he did anything wrong by buying his own little jet to get the flight time he needed to get on with American in the shortest amount of time.

However, I do believe if it is damaging to our profession (taking steps back not forward) then our Union, who should be overseeing out entire profession should be fighting it to protect the unknowing individual. Until I hear that this Alpine Air is required by the FAA to have a qualified SIC on-board, I am not going to cast a blanket against a pilot who feels that way is his/her fastest route to realizing their dream until I hear differently. But even then its ALPA I believe that should step up and address the situation (am I a dreamer or what, LOL!!)

 

[canadflyau]

Good question timebuilder

I think (but personally have no 135 experience) that on a 135 flight you must have a 135 SIC checkride to serve as an SIC, then and only then you can log the flight time regardless of the certification (single pilot) of the airplane.. however an SIC would not be required for the operation but you could have one... please correct me?

 

[Timebuilder]

>>What I am getting at with that statement was, everyone draws there own ethical line in the sand.. Some guys call the All ATPS and these other companies "pilot factories" and say the training isn't worth anything with the CFI logging in the back seat, a safety pilot in the right seat and someone under the hood in the left. What I am saying is that everyone is getting to the job in their own way, and to say that my route that is different than what someone else is taking is wrong.. I just don't buy it.

True. Ethics, as a discipline, has come to embrace a more "situational" approach in recent decades. An ethical decision is on its most solid ground when it is based on the best standards of a society as a whole, such as a support for life and happiness. In the context of aviation, a personal decision which compromises the business as a whole, and working pilots in particular, needs additional scrutiny. The individual needs to consider if the ends are really able to justify the means, taking the Big Picture into the decision.

Pilot factories, and according to my info, ALL ATPS, don't give AMEL instruction from the back seat. Some operators do this, and it too is frowned upon my most MEI's. I know I don't feel like I would be fulfilling my responsibilities for the safety of the flight if I was unable to take the flight controls in an emergency.

If the instruction is simply multiengine instrument, and both pilots are multi certified, that is a different matter. Even the safety pilot can learn from the ATC conversations and instructor verbal guidance. While unconventional, this doesn't approach the questions surrounding PFT.

Others may correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe that having passed an SIC checkride makes the time loggable as SIC time, unless the SIC requirements such as 61.51 f (1) and (2) are met. I'm not sure how the FAA views all of the nuances of the phrase "the regulations under which the flight is being conducted". My guess is that holding the SIC paperwork doesn't in itself fulfill that requirement.

 

[canadflyau]

A difference

Timebuilder:"Pilot factories, and according to my info, ALL ATPS, don't give AMEL instruction from the back seat. Some operators do this, and it too is frowned upon my most MEI's. I know I don't feel like I would be fulfilling my responsibilities for the safety of the flight if I was unable to take the flight controls in an emergency.
If the instruction is simply multiengine instrument, and both pilots are multi certified, that is a different matter. Even the safety pilot can learn from the ATC conversations and instructor verbal guidance. While unconventional, this doesn't approach the questions surrounding PFT."

The 135 logging issue.. seems like we are all unclear. I simply feel that if they have set up a program to train that is not preventing a required qualified applicant from sitting in the right seat and being paid, go for it! What great experience.

However, the three people in the cockpit logging time (and its not a 727) is a perfect example (and I wasn't picking on All ATP's) but just using "pilot factories" as they are called as a similar debate. I personally have no problem with these so called pilot factories. I instructed with one of their products and he was great. However, there are some people who refuse to fly with someone who chose that style of training. They unfoundedly claim this pilot "bought his ratings."

The debate of 3 people logging time, call your FSDO you'll get differing views from them. This serves as a perfect example of our pilot mentalities, one of us would have to be right or wrong and be debated until blue in the face, just like this PFT debate. My personal view is it is not acceptable, so I personally would not do it when teaching any of my students. (Call me a control freak,LOL!)

The basic question.. is it pay for a job or pay for training. Paying for a job, clearly wrong in my mind and I feel ALPA should do their best to rid these practices for the best of our profession.

"Ethics, as a discipline, has come to embrace a more "situational" approach in recent decades"
I couldn't agree with statement anymore! Thats why I write the line is in the sand.. changing with every situation. Bravo Timebuilder!

Later!

 

[Timebuilder]

>>The 135 logging issue.. seems like we are all unclear. I simply feel that if they have set up a program to train that is not preventing a required qualified applicant from sitting in the right seat and being paid, go for it! What great experience.

The logging of SIC time is set out in the aforementioned part of 14CFR. The actual answer will vary from carrier to carrier, as some company's have clearly been granted two-crew status in what would normally be single pilot aircraft, and AirNet is a good example. Do a great many companies have this regulatory status? I doubt it.

The PFT issue comes into play whenever someone is paying to be occupying a seat in a cockpit for a revenue generating flight. If that were not so, the carrier would have to hire and pay a qualified pilot, just as I was for the Navajo copilot job I once had. Setting up a training program by a school is one thing. Taking money from a pilot in order to advance the safety of your operation where you would otherwise have to hire a pilot is the other.

 

[bobbysamd]

Situational ethics

I appreciate Timebuilder touching on "situational ethics." Whatever is right in the situation. The end justifies the means.

Let me give you an example of situational ethics. Let's say you have no money and haven't eaten in three days. You're in a grocery store. You are in the produce aisle and no one is around and you see no TV camera lenses poking out from the ceiling. Do you take an apple and eat it? Once again, you have no money. Many people would do just that because (1) they figure the store won't miss one apple and/or (2) they're hungry and that is more important than being a thief, so that makes it all right to rip off an apple from the grocery store. Well, maybe the grocery store won't miss the apple and you're not hungry, but how does that affect society as a whole? Maybe you don't care, but others do.

So, let's say I'm a pilot and am qualified for the commuters. I am not out of work but want to go to work very badly for a commuter. However, jobs are tight and I cannot interest a commuter in my quals and experience. In fact, people with lesser quals are being hired. I really could care less about seniority because flying for a regional is all I ever set out to do in aviation. If I drop $7K to SleazeAir, I will get an interview, training and a job. I have the bread, so going into debt is not an issue. Do I pay the $7K and buy the job?

I guess I would ask myself if any job is worth paying for. I would ask myself how I would feel about knowing that I am as qualified if not more so than other applicants who've been hired for free and I paid for my job. I was confronted with such questions ten years ago. The commuters were paying just as lousy as they do know. I asked myself if it was worth sacrifcing my self esteem and values to pay for what might be a cool but a poorly-paying job. I asked myself if I would do the same if I were still in radio. Bottom line, it was a job, a cool job, maybe, but still, just a job. I thought to myself, there's nothing the matter with me. I have worth. I am capable and hard-working and can contribute to any employer. Paying for a job is tantamount to groveling and I don't need to grovel for what boils down to be a very poorly-paying job, at least at the beginning and for some time thereafter. That's how I analyzed P-F-T. Maybe others don't mind if they grovel to get that job, but what kind of message does that send to generally anti-pilot management? Think about it.

I also asked myself, how I would feel if I encountered someone who bought his job or was otherwise unqualified but got the job. I faced that situation many times when I was in radio. I found that I always resented people who were less-qualified than me when they were hired. I always wondered how they got a job that I had to struggle to get.

I realize there will always be people who get jobs because their parents are neighbors of the chief pilot, or because Dad sees the CEO at the country club. That's not entirely fair, either, but not much can be done about that. Still, it is not fair that the size of one's wallet might be the sole qualifier of getting a job. Believe me, others will know and will resent it and resent you.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[canadflyau]

Paying for training vs. Paying for a job

Timebuilder, where did you find a job as co-pilot in a Navajo? Did they have you to lower the insurance premiums? Was the PIC limited on his/her lic?

I need a job like that!! That would beat the heck out of my cubical!

 

[Ned]

Drop it

Boy has this topic been beat to death. The issue is not is PFT bad, but how low is it ok to stoop. I find it annoying that you people will take a regional job for 20K a year. If no one took the job then they might pay a reasonable wage. But you guys take the jobs, the pay stinks, and it is what it is. So lay off those guys who PFT, sure they are stooping lower than you would, but there are lots of people who find any regional FO just as guilty of lowering industry standards.

Keeping my desk job and wishing it were a lot harder to get a pilot's license!

 

[Timebuilder]

I was hired by some folks who knew me as a student several years ago, at another airport.

The chief pilot was my DE for my private, and the PIC had been my multi instructor.

My presence in the airplane was by customer request, for which they paid an extra fee. I imagine the insurance company saw me as an asset: experienced multi and instrument instructor, second pair of eyes, radio operator to free up the flying pilot for greater concentration.

While the 135 legs were not loggable, I enjoyed the extra pay and the class B experience. The part 91 dead legs were a teriffic plus. The insurance company only specified that the PIC fly in the left seat. As an MEI, I was already comfortable in the right seat, so it worked out well. I feel it helps me in the Lear, too.

To summarize, this isn't a job you get by faxing an app. It was a matter of networking. In the case of the Lear, I had a captain's name to mention in my cover letter.

Talk with people. Be friendly. Ask questions that allow others to share their positive job qualities with you. Let them know that you would love to have a job like that. In this case, unfortunately, the Navajos have been sold.

 

[Timebuilder]

Since new pilots join our ranks, not to mention this webite, on a dialy basis we will probably review this topic regularly, along with ALPA, security, scope, equipment, accidents, regulations, etc.

When you tire of a topic, do what I do.

Don't click.